Home-Made Sway-Braces...

Greetings! Got a question here... I priced Mason Industries and Kinetics for sway braces to support the tops of my frame to my ceiling joists. To make a long story short I thought about doing it a different way that will cost me between $75.00-$105.00 to do my whole Studio compared to around $400.00 buying the braces pre-made. I was going to purchase a 20ft piece of Steel Angled Iron that's 1-1/2 x 1-1/2 x 1/8" thick. I was going to cut individual pieces where the width is the same as the "I" beam part of my ceiling joist. I would then secure 1/4" Neoprene to the bracket that would come into contact with my top frame base and the bottom of my "I" beam joist (Would the Neoprene need to be thicker?) The bracket would then be screwed into the top frame base and the bottom of the I beam ceiling joist. I plan to mount one bracket on the front and rear sides of each frame at every ceiling joist location. Hopefully this would work and give me the same frame strength & decoupling as buying the "higher priced" braces. Here is the $$$ breakdown if you're interested... 1 pc-20ft 1-1/2" x 1-1/2" x 1/8"(thick) Steel Angled Iron...$33.00 (If I cut each piece the width of the "I" beam on my ceiling joist (which is 2-1/2" wide) I could have 96 brackets. 1 pc .250"(thick) x 6.00"(wide) x 36.00"(long) Neoprene with Adhesive Backing...$41.14 (Company rep stated the adhesive will bond well with Steel/Metal). I would cut the Neoprene into 2" strips to apply to the 1-1/2" sides of the Steel Angled braces. I found the Neoprene rolls here... http://rubbersheetroll.com/neoprene-rub ... -grade.htm For me, the labor for cutting the pieces would be free or no more than $30.00 I included a diagram of how I plan to do this below...

The bracket would then be screwed into the top frame base and the bottom of the I beam ceiling joist.

If you screw down both sides of the bracket, then you are short-circuiting the neoprene. It serves no purpose at all like that. Vibration will flank right past the neoprene, along the screw shank itself. So it would be basically the same as just screwing the bracket in place by itself, without any neoprene. Same effect. Take a look at how commercial braces are made: there is no physical contact between the two halves of the brace. They are only joined by the neoprene, nothing else. No screws, bolts, nails, etc. crosses the neoprene. The two flanges are attached to your walls, sure, but nothing sort-circuits the neoprene, like it does in your design. - Stuart -

Thanx for the reply Stuart! I'm basing my diagram on this brace from Kinetics... http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/iprb.aspx I spoke with a rep in my area from Kinetics and he stated this is what I would need to mount the top of my frame with my ceiling joist. They have another sway brace (kwsb2) which he didn't recommend I use for my particular application. The IPRB bracket has 1 strip of elamaster on 1 side and none on the other. All I did was add another piece to the other side of the bracket. According to the discription given on the page, this is what it states the brace does...

Application To secure a partition at the top with a resilient angle which acoustically isolates the wall from the deck above.

The rep at Kinetics also stated you could use the Isomax clips in a certain manner, but I'm not using Hat Channel to secure my ceiling drywall. I see what you're saying, but outside of the extra piece of Neoprene and the fact that the elamaster they use is 1/2" I can't see the difference... *UPDATE* The person I spoke with above was a Kinetics rep in my area, not directly from Kinetics. (Earlier, when I asked to speak to someone at Kinetics directly, the receptionist stated I had to ask questions with a rep nearest to me-in my area). After further discussion with the local rep, I wasn't too comfortable with his knowledge, especially when it came to Studio construction... Any other suggestions?

I'm basing my diagram on this brace from Kinetics... http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/iprb.aspx

After a cursory look at the link shown, I agree with Stuart. The photograph in the kineticsnoise "brace" doesn't have any screws or nails going through the "brace" and into the wall frame. The wall frame is just floating between the braces held firmly, it seems, by the neoprene. Surely you are correct that the neoprene you have added makes little difference. However, the screws that you plan through the brace for the "top frame base" make a world of difference.

Thanx for the reply 11coco! I emailed Kinetics directly to find out if there is a screw hole on the elamaster side or if the frame would simply "float" in between each bracket with elamaster. Also I'm wondering if it would secure the frames well enough (especially with all the weight from layers of drywall) by only "floating" between the brackets with elamaster. Thanx!

Take a look at page 79 of Rod's book. That's the kind of sway brace you need. EDIT TO ADD: Better still, here is a similar thing. Not sure if it is the exact one that Rod recommends, but the concept is the same: I found that here: http://www.masonanaheim.com/a/a105b.htm - Stuart -

Thanx Stuart That's the brace I originally looked at. Whenever I've seen that brace it's either attatched to another frame or a slab wall. How would you attatch that brace (having 2 base studs at the top of my frame) from the frame to the ceiling joist?

I reckon the easiest would be to attach some blocking to the side of the joist, and attach the top end of the brace to that. - Stuart -

My 2 cents: the Kinetics piece functions as a guide. It is rigidly attached to the ceiling but the only contact with the walls is the neoprene pads. What you have proposed is indeed the same as long as it is attached to one surface and not attached to the other, but only serves as a guide. For that matter, I think any substrate would work, not just angle iron, as long as the only contact with the wall was the neoprene pad. Of course you want a sound structure (pun intended), so it needs to be strong and secure. I would think a full-length 2x4 with pads every 24", similar to floating floor supports, could be devised to work. Also, only the guide surface would need the pad. I don't mean to contradict anyone, that's just my thoughts.

I have an example of one home made isolation clip: viewtopic.php?t=7449 And another more suitable to what you are devising from Aarons' build thread: viewtopic.php?t=839&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=165 Hope this helps

Greetings! I spoke with a rep DIRECTLY from Kinetics this morning in the Home Theatre area in Kinetics which also covers the Recording Studio area. He stated the type of brace I need to secure the frame to the ceiling joist is their model CWCA bracket (pic below). This bracket is similar to the initial bracket I first talked about making. He stated that their brackets need to be about 4ft apart. He also sent me a detailed PDF diagram of the CWCA brace which I won't put on here, but I can email it to anyone who's interested. He sent me the pictures below of an actual installation of the CWCA brace to a ceiling joist and wall frame. Here are some links for info on this brace... http://www.kineticsnoise.com/hometheate ... heater.pdf http://www.hometoys.com/htinews/apr05/a ... alroom.htm The brace itself is not listed on their website. In looking at their brace, it still seems possible to make one with some modifications. Give me your comments/suggestions on my modified brace below. Oh, by the way, I priced the CWCA brace at around $30.00 each... Thanx!

Well, that's an entirely different design, isn't it? The second bolt is not coupled to the bracket at all, since it goes through the neoprene grommet, which consists of the "tube" and the "washer". That will get you some isolation, provided that you don't over-tighten the bolt. I still like Rod's recommendation better: there is a lot more neoprene between the two parts on those, and it doesn't matter how hard you tighten the screws or bolts. The DIY version that xSpace linked you to also looks very doable. I think it would be a lot easier to make those yourself, than to try to copy the Kinetics design. Just chop off two pieces of "U" shaped steel channel, reverse one piece, pack some neoprene strip in between the intersection to fill the gap, and you got it! I can't see how you would manufacture those neoprene tubes and washers yourself to copy the Kinetics design. - Stuart -

Hey Stuart, Thanx for the reply. Here's my observations/opinions from your last post...

Well, that's an entirely different design, isn't it?

Yes it is somewhat different than the original. Your comments on decoupling were well taken by me. Made sense. Along with the other posts, it caused me to look at other braces and re-look at the ones I already had considered.

provided that you don't over-tighten the bolt

That's true, but even the installation instructions from Kineteics on the CWCA bracket gives you instructions for tightening the bolts on their bracket. It's a concern either way...

I still like Rod's recommendation better: there is a lot more neoprene between the two parts on those, and it doesn't matter how hard you tighten the screws or bolts.

Rod knows his business no doubt, but as I stated above, I have never seen the WIC sway brace used as a sole support for securing the top of a frame to ceiling joists. I'm not saying it "couldn't" be done, but when I have enquired at Kinetics and Mason Industries, their reps told me they DO NOT recommend this brace for TOP frame sole support. However, the braces recommended to me for securing the top of frames was similar at both companies.

The DIY version that xSpace linked you to also looks very doable

The first link talks about the WIC sway brace...I just covered that above.. The second link has Aaron's homemade sway brace in it. Looks good to me...thing is, I don't really see too much difference between that sway brace and the one I listed in my first post (WITH THE EXCEPTION of modifying my homemade brace only using 1 screw/bolt and allowing the Neoprene pads to rest against the frame on both sides of the frame unobstructed) As far as how difficult to make, as of right now, this is how I see to do it... -Pre-cut the width of the brackets as I need them -Drill the 2 holes for the scews/bolts that DO NOT have Neoprene -Secure the 1/2" thick Neoprene pad to the bracket (Pad: 2" wide pre-adhesive roll..only need to be cut 1 time per bracket) -Drill through the Neoprene pad & bracket -Insert the Neoprene tubing inside bracket hole (and/or bracket hole and Neoprene pad) and cut Once the brackets are cut to the pieces I need, I don't think it will take very long to finish each bracket. What kind of efficiency will it produce? I couldn't tell you that any more than Aaron could on his design. I do feel if you can match up the design and parts as close to the original, I feel comfortable enough it will be sufficient. Now, let me say this...I'm NOT trying to be argumentative and I truly APPRECIATE any and all help. I simply evaluate the comments then go from there. If comments/info lead me to scrap this then so-be-it, but unless I see that this won't work, I can't see spending over $400.00 (or close to it) for brackets I can make that can possibly give me the same results for a little more than 1/4 the cost. Keep the responses comin' !!!!! Thanx!

Wanted to ask these questions also... 1.) What is the consensus about padding under the bottom sill plate on the frame? Is something like sill seal adequate or should some type of padding like this: http://www.kineticsnoise.com/arch/wallmat.aspx be used or perhaps #30 roofing felt? 2.) Was thinking about using sleeve anchors to bolt the bottom sill of my frame to my slab floor instead of nails. I read a post where I believe Keith recommended bolting the frame to the floor. How about something like this: http://www.concretefasteners.com/anchor ... ation.aspx Any suggestions? Thanx!

Was thinking about using sleeve anchors to bolt the bottom sill of my frame to my slab floor instead of nails

Where I live, those things are code. Framing must be bolted here. No nails. Earthquakes are a problem, and a good shaker could pull nails loose, while bolts stand a much better chance of keeping things where they are supposed to be. Yeah, I think I'd go with bolts, even if the weren't required by code. It makes more sense to me.

What is the consensus about padding under the bottom sill plate on the frame?

It depends on what you are trying to accomplish! If all you want is a good seal, then three beads of caulk under the full length of the bottom plate (one under the middle, one close to each edge) will do the trick. Also an additional bead of caulk under each layer of drywall. That way you have multiple seals. John uses rubber strips in some of his designs. That will work too: Of course, both of these require that your floor is totally flat, with no cracks, dips or rises. Now, if you want to actually float your wall on pads, that's a whole different ballgame! Now you are in for some major mathematics, to figure out the correct type, thickness, placing and loading on your pads, such that the are compressed to the exact degree required to float correctly, not more and not less. You need to carefully and accurately calculate the entire mass of the wall that is to be floated, which includes the ceiling too, of course, since it rests on the walls. It also includes windows and doors, and since studio doors are really heavy at the jamb, you need to take that into consideration. If you do it wrong and end up with more mass in your wall and ceiling than you figured in your calculations, then you will over-compress the pads, they will "bottom out", and your wall will flank directly to the floor. On the other hand, if you didn't put enough mass in your wall and ceiling, then the pads wont be compressed enough to float, so once again your wall will flank directly to the floor. You'd also need to be very careful with the construction: you cannot allow anything to bridge across the pad from the frame to the floor, as that would "short circuit" the pad, and flank. So each bolt hole must be drilled to the exact correct size, and the collars and washers must be installed correctly, etc., If you forget to put a collar on one single bolt, and the bolt touches the wood directly, then your wall will flank and all of your effort and expense will have been for nothing. So floating your wall is an option, but not one that should be taken lightly. It is very hard to get it right, and getting it wrong means that you wasted a lot of money for nothing. In any event, if you are building double stud walls on a god concrete slab on grade, then floating the walls is probably not necessary at all: your windows and doors will be a far weaker link than lack of decoupling from frame to floor. I think I'd put the extra money into getting the best possible windows and doors. I think it would be much better spent there. IMHO! - Stuart -