Basement Studio - Stockholm

Hello people. I am about to start out my first ever studio built and after reading this forum for a couple of months I now have decided to make an attempt to get some of your wisdom. I'm going to try to keep this brief and add on info as I go along, but here are the basics: Where am I? Well, I have just got my hands on a pretty decent basement right in the middle of Stockholm, Sweden. I have not signed anything yet, but just today I was at the place with a carpenter who I will use/abuse for some of the workload. So, nothing is done as of yet, except a firm handshake with the owner of the building. What are my goals? My goals are simple. I want a studio/rehearsal which will be at my disposal 24/7 and to be able to produce/write/record/rehearse my projects as well as other bands too. How loud am I? I'm pretty darn loud. And I want to be able to be extremly loud. The nice thing is that currently - without any insulation, none at all, just the 3 concrete walls and one drywall-insulation-drywall it is pretty quiet. As an experiment the owner had a friend kick the crap out of a 24" kick drum while he was listening outside and above the room, and appearantly the kick was only audible just outside a fire-escape door separating my room from others. I know this probably doesn't tell you much, but at least it's not painfully bad STC right now. Yet, I have already decided on a M-A-M construction. Current walls, floor and ceiling. Currently, the floor is concrete slab. Under that it's all dirt. The Concrete floor is not 100% flat but I would like to avoid having to even it out. Three of the walls (east, west and north) are also concrete with a fire escape door in the north wall. This is a concern area of course. The south wall, however, is made out of to sheets of drywall, studs and insulation (rockwool). The ceiling is also concrete and the above neighbour is a tobacco store and a pub, so no appartements for at least one more floor. In the ceiling there is a lot of pipes. Some of them are to the ventilation system and some for heating the above neighbour. Pretty regular stuff, really. The wall south of the south wall (the wall with no door) is concrete BUT if you look up along this wall there is two cavities followed by two windows. Major concern of course. On the north part of the room, you can see that I have left a significant amount of space, this is because of a set of stairs that are impossible to either tear down or make use of. Same thing with the west wall even though the concern here is pipes that can't be built in properly. Basic idea. So. What I have been thinking about is to use the existing south wall (though well insulated) as one leaf between CR and Live Room. This wall is now drywalled up, but I will open this wall to expose the insulation (which is rockwool) according to the "double leaf" assembly theory. Inside of this wall my idea is to build a room within a room and use the other three concrete walls as leafs. If I can, I will avoid floating floor to save money (and because of the excellent thread on this forum, which implies that it's overrated?) Budget. Here it gets tricky. I would like to keep the initial costs to a minimum and my first priority is not disturbing neighbours at any time. My current budget for soundproofing (including work and material) is somewhere in the rhealm of 4000 dollars. For this amount, I expect to get ALL of the materials inluding to windows and two (used) acoustic doors (-30dB). Maybe I'm naive, but i've helped a friend convert his basement to a rehearsal room for significantly less money, event though that was a bit smaller in size. Questions: Allright. Here we go: Can I use the concrete walls as leafs as they are, or do I have to insulate them as well? The CR. It's going to be wide and narrow, not very ideal. How big of a problem is that going to be in terms of acoustics? Floating floor. Considering the info I have given you, is it a good idea or is it a waste of money? Resiliant Channels. I know a lot of people are recommending the use of these, but I can't seem to fins any here in sweden, are imperative? And what do they cost? Drywall. The more the merrier? I was thinking two (maybe three) layers. More? Slanting walls. Irregular walls have been a part of my school of thought as an engineer. Your thoughts? Well. I think thats it for now. I have not mastered Sketchup so I will include just a basic plan of the current state of the basement and my initial (very cost effective) idea of how to build. If you guys have any suggestions or plans that would suit me and my budget better, please, do tell. I will post a couple of pictures of the room soon. Thank you all for any responses. /Alexander

Some pics for your (?) pleasure.

Alexander, How are you. Hey, you are showing volume of the rooms but no dimensions like wall length floor to ceiling height. What are those? Thanks, Brien

Alexander, How are you. Hey, you are showing volume of the rooms but no dimensions like wall length floor to ceiling height. What are those? Thanks, Brien

Hey Brien. Thank you, I'm just fine. you? Here is some measurements.

"The south wall, however, is made out of to sheets of drywall, studs and insulation (rockwool). " How much do you really want to keep this wall? Seems to me, if you removed maybe 4 -/+ meters of it you could develop a larger control room. Like this:

Post subject: Re: Basement Studio - Stockholm Reply with quote "The south wall, however, is made out of to sheets of drywall, studs and insulation (rockwool). " How much do you really want to keep this wall? Seems to me, if you removed maybe 4 -/+ meters of it you could develop a larger control room. Like this: Attachments: Studio-5.jpg Studio-5.jpg [ 15.54 KiB | Viewed 2 times ]

Yep. I hear ya. Been thinking about it. What do you think about this then? Do you have any comment about the other qustions? I am really eager to learn about the whole concrete thing. Do I have to insulate the concrete wall too?

Hi Alexander, and welcome! Don't forget to comply with the only item you forgot from the "Don't post until you have read this" thread! :)} Regarding your control room: The initial plan you had (long and thin) is rather unworkable, I think. As Brien suggested, knocking out that wall would improve things greatly. Regarding the concrete: Concrete is GOOD! Lots of mass! And it sounds like you already have reasonable isolation. In my non-expert opinion, those concrete walls will make an excellent outer leaf, so if you just build simple stud walls inside that for your second leaf, with a couple of layers of drywall on it, I think it should be fine. Regarding resilient channel: I don't think you are going to need it! I don't really see where it would be much use to you. The purpose of RC is to decouple, but if you build that inner leaf wall, and hang a your inner leaf ceiling from it, then you are already decoupled. RC won't add anything additional to that.

Floating floor. Considering the info I have given you, is it a good idea or is it a waste of money?

Waste of money, in your case! You don't need it, since you already have a concrete slab on grade, and you don't have enough ceiling height to float your floor anyway. Just use the concrete as your floor. If you don't like how it looks, then cover it with laminate flooring. But I would suggest that you do need to level the concrete first. If not, it will not be easy to get a good seal under your walls / doors. Just use self-leveling cement, maybe a couple of centimeters thick. It should not be too expensive. I can buy 25kg sacks of self-leveling cement here, for just a few dollars each.

Drywall. The more the merrier? I was thinking two (maybe three) layers. More?

More is always better, but in your case I reckon two layers of 5/8, would be fine, maybe three if you really want to go overkill. Green Glue in between would be good, too.

Slanting walls. Irregular walls have been a part of my school of thought as an engineer. Your thoughts?

For the live room, yes, a good idea. But for the control room you do need to keep it very symmetrical. Angle the walls at 6 degrees and the ceiling at 12, but make sure that it is symmetrical. Otherwise you won't have a good stereo image. If you could do a SketchUp model with the basic outline of the room, including those things that cannot be moved (like stairs, ducts, pillars, etc.), then that would help others to make suggestions on how you could arrange your layout. Once question: Have you thought about HVAC? Another question: I imagine that the fire door is going to be an issue? I imagine that code requires that you keep it free from obstructions at all times, etc.? So there is no chance that you can seal it up and cover it over? - Stuart -

"The wall south of the south wall (the wall with no door) is concrete BUT if you look up along this wall there is two cavities followed by two windows. Major concern of course." Probably not as Major as you are thinking. These guys here fix those kinds of leaks on their lunch break! Search out "window plug" (without the quotation marks) . Think of it like part of the wall, like an existing leaf, only it's a real skinny lightweight version :)

Hi Alexander, and welcome! Don't forget to comply with the only item you forgot from the "Don't post until you have read this" thread! :)}

Hi Stuart, and thank you for all the help. Much appriciated. What is that last item, I can't seem to find it?

Regarding your control room: The initial plan you had (long and thin) is rather unworkable, I think. As Brien suggested, knocking out that wall would improve things greatly.

Well. Figures. I thought maybe I would have to realize that. Did you see the second plan I posted? Maybe something like that? I'd really like to keep the live room pretty big but I know I'll have to rearrange that southern wall. Thanks.

Regarding the concrete: Concrete is GOOD! Lots of mass! And it sounds like you already have reasonable isolation. In my non-expert opinion, those concrete walls will make an excellent outer leaf, so if you just build simple stud walls inside that for your second leaf, with a couple of layers of drywall on it, I think it should be fine.

Thats what I want to hear!

garding resilient channel: I don't think you are going to need it!

Nice!

and hang a your inner leaf ceiling from it

Thats a question that has come up. The studs that make out the ceiling should be secured by hanging from the existing ceiling right? Should they be totally separated from the walls? And if so, how does one secure the space in between? Caulk? Insulation?

Waste of money, in your case!

...

But I would suggest that you do need to level the concrete first.

Thanks you, that is a load off. About the leveling, I'll check it out.

If you could do a SketchUp model with the basic outline of the room, including those things that cannot be moved (like stairs, ducts, pillars, etc.), then that would help others to make suggestions on how you could arrange your layout. Once question: Have you thought about HVAC?

Well. Thats the problem. Everytime I try and do a SketchUp plan I end up looking at somekind of weird paint-project. I simply can't to get my hand around it. I can do a more specific plan in Live Interior Pro, would that help? When it comes to HVAC I have this thought: No HVAC in the live room. Behind the inner leaf of the north wall on the right side there is a HVAC and I thought I would pipe that out to the CR and simply open the doors whenever we're not there or so. Maybe use a couple of fans too, just to get som circulation going.

I imagine that the fire door is going to be an issue?

[/quote] Its actually not an issue. I talked to the owner about it and he says we can seal it up. It has actually never been used and is closed up right now. So I'll just seal that one right up. Any thoughts on how? Stuart - Thank you, thank you, thank you sir! You guys are the best. Can't wait to get it started!

Thats a question that has come up. The studs that make out the ceiling should be secured by hanging from the existing ceiling right? Should they be totally separated from the walls? And if so, how does one secure the space in between? Caulk? Insulation?

Nope! The joists for the inner-leaf ceiling rest ONLY on the inner-leaf walls. They are not attached to the outer leaf in any manner at all. The existing ceiling (concrete, in your case?) is your OUTER leaf. You need to build an entire separate 5-sided structure inside of that (4 walls plus the ceiling). OK, so there might be more than five if you angle your walls, but you will have at least five sides. No part of the outer leaf should ever touch any part of the inner leaf. They are two separate, free-standing structures. The only place where the two structures meet, is the floor (unless you have a correctly floated floor, in which case the outer leaf walls are resting on the outer leaf floor, and the inner leaf walls rest on the inner-leaf floor. The concept is often called "room within a room", because that describes exactly what you are doing. A room has a floor, walls, and a ceiling. You build your inner room on the same floor, but you do build it as a complete, sealed "box". All around that "box" is air and insulation, on all sides and above. Nothing else. Having said that, yes, there are cases where you have no choice but to hang a ceiling from an exiting structure above (a low roof basement, for example), but you do so realizing that it is not quite as good as a complete "room-in-a-room", and you do it in such a way as to minimize flanking and coupling. If you have no choice, then you do what has to be done with what you have. But if you have the space and the budget, then go for the best you possibly can, which is totally separate "room-in-a-room", with fully decoupled MSM walls all around. IMHO

What is that last item, I can't seem to find it?

It's on this post, about half way down the page. It says: "Edit your profile to include your location. This is very important, because this is a worldwide resource, and as such, material costs and availability vary widely. For example, masonry is cheaper than gypsum in some parts of the globe, whereas it's the exact opposite in other regions. We're not asking for your address or credit card number, just a country will do. Nothing says "I didn't bother to read or follow these instructions" like leaving your profile location blank!" :) Regarding SketchUp: Keep at it! Yeah, it's a steep learning curve to start with, as it is rather quirky and has some ... ummmm ... "interesting" concepts, but once you get over the initial hump of not understanding a thing, you get used to it and find that it is a really powerful, very useful tool. And free! Everyone here uses it: it is a kind of de-facto standard, as it allows us all to download and play around with each other's designs, "borrow" bits and pieces, etc. It would help a LOT for others to be able to download your design and fiddle with it. Since there are so many designs here already in SketchUp, it's easy to just select one and drop in an entire existing studio to your shell, and fool around with to see if it fits. Etc. etc. etc. So stick with it for a bit, and you'll get the hang of it. - Stuart -

Hi Stuart. Thank you again, superstar! :P

The concept is often called "room within a room", because that describes exactly what you are doing. A room has a floor, walls, and a ceiling. You build your inner room on the same floor, but you do build it as a complete, sealed "box". All around that "box" is air and insulation, on all sides and above. Nothing else.

This I realize. I'm just considering the fact that in order to keep the ceiling studs straight (not hanging down over time) it seems that the only alternative would be to support the studs by hanging them from the concrete ceiling AS WELL as laying them on top of the inner leaf walls. Is there any way around this? I thought that ceiling studs can't be long since they will start to bend. Is this not correct? I just finished reading one of your monster-posts about floating floors and I'm now a firm believer of leaving it out. It's so weird that it seems to be a defacto technuiqe and yet nobody really recommends it. Excellent work on that, anyhow.

So stick with it for a bit, and you'll get the hang of it.

I will. Maybe you could tell me what you think about this design, though? Bigger CR and a hallway. Thank you Stuart, if you're ever in Sweden, you're welcomed to my house for beers and BBQ... :P // Alex

I thought that ceiling studs can't be long since they will start to bend. Is this not correct?

If they sag, then you did not dimension them correctly! The longer distance they have to span, the bigger they need to be. Instead of 2x4 you'll have to go to 2x6, 2x8, 2x10 or even more. Hire a local building contractor or structural engineer to do the calculations for you, but this web site will give you an idea of what size of joists you need for your span and ceiling load, for different types of wood: http://www.awc.org/calculators/span/cal ... cstyle.asp That design looks better, but you have doors in your CR walls where your bass trapping needs to go, and to get from the CR to the LR you have to walk through the iso booth. You should splay the walls of your CR as well: 6 degrees if you are planning to use 60 degree intersection angle for speaker placement, or more if you go with a higher angle. Try rotating your CR 90 degrees to the left, then you could have sliding glass doors directly into the LR, and a door (or window) between your CR and iso booth. It would be more practical, I think, and make better use of space. You also seem to be using a lot of space in that sound lock. Do you really need that? Sweden for BBQ and beer, ehh? Sounds good to me! Belgium is about as close as I've ever been to Sweden, but who knows, I might get there some day! - Stuart -

Another comment: TWO drum kits in your LR???? WOW! Your ears sure do like severe punishment, don't they!!!! :) Seriously, you might want to consider enclosing one of those somehow, in a separate booth. That's an awful lot of sound in a small room! You won't be able to record them both at the same time, of course: The bleed would be huge. Just a tought! - Stuart -

If they sag, then you did not dimension them correctly! The longer distance they have to span, the bigger they need to be. Instead of 2x4 you'll have to go to 2x6, 2x8, 2x10 or even more. Hire a local building contractor or structural engineer to do the calculations for you, but this web site will give you an idea of what size of joists you need for your span and ceiling load, for different types of wood:

Good point. I'll tell my carpenter.

That design looks better, but you have doors in your CR walls where your bass trapping needs to go

Agreed, but one problem is that the door to the ISO booth is imovable. I will look at maybe rotating the control room. When it comes to doors and easy access to the LR it is simply a matter of cost. I would like to keep the number of doors and windows to minimal for cost-efficiancy purposes, and keep that in mind over time, if I were to make any changes. This plan just seems to be the easiest, no? The space you mentioned has no real purpose, I will look into that.

Sweden for BBQ and beer, ehh? Sounds good to me! Belgium is about as close as I've ever been to Sweden, but who knows, I might get there some day!

You are more than welcome. I'll prep the marinade!

TWO drum kits in your LR???? WOW! Your ears sure do like severe punishment, don't they!!!! :) Seriously, you might want to consider enclosing one of those somehow, in a separate booth. That's an awful lot of sound in a small room! You won't be able to record them both at the same time, of course: The bleed would be huge.

I am aware. The two drumkits are used in one of my projects, but I will of course record them either separetely or simoultanously in separate rooms. Thank you for all the help. My main objective right now is to insulate the heck out of the rooms. Any general tips? Is it at all any risk to skip the floating floor? And how important is the leveling of the slab, does it have to be dead-on-level, so to speak? // Alex

Hi guys. Just have one easy question. If the slab is not 100% even, is there any way of achieving insulation without adding more concrete/cement? Say if I were to build the walls on top of the not perfect slab, could I fill the eventual gaps (slab/stud) with caulk? Thanks.

I wonder if your design would benefit from what John suggested in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11508&start=15 It utilises the corner to place the control room in that makes the design easier to use up the maximum square footage and gets sight lines into all areas. Granted it is not for the faint of heart when it comes to framing, but overall it seems like a better option.

Say if I were to build the walls on top of the not perfect slab, could I fill the eventual gaps (slab/stud) with caulk?

That depends! How uneven is it? And are you willing to bet the integrity or your studio on not having a good seal? You have to caulk anyway, and that might or might not be enough. If it is just slightly uneven, then probably caulk will do the trick just fine. But if you have large ridges or deep cracks, then I'd go the extra distance and level it first. It looks like you are going through the exact same questioning that I went through several months ago, in deciding how to treat my floor. People kept telling me that the best answer was to level it and seal it. I kept on thinking "Naaah, there has to be another way. Maybe I can do ______ (fill in the blank) instead, and save money!". Until I eventually realized that they were right, after I researched and investigated all over the place. Make it flat and level to start with, and prevent problems down the line. Don't forget that adding a layer of leveling cement also adds mass to the floor, and that can only be good, even if it only helps a tiny fraction. All those "tiny fractions" add up. As Rod says (I'm paraphrasing) we really do need to pay attention to all the details, in order to assure the best possible studio. If not, then even a minor screw-up can have major consequences. - Stuart -

I wonder if your design would benefit from what John suggested in this thread: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11508&start=15

Thanks for the suggestion xSpace. I have actually thought of that design, the problem is the southwest door, which is imovable. After a few considerations I think the design I leaning at is the "straight" one, even though - as you pointed out - it is not perfect in terms of acoustics and space efficiancy. I just figured that I would try to work with what I am able to work with and make the best out of the situation in terms of diffusors and maybe some mobile absorbers...

If it is just slightly uneven, then probably caulk will do the trick just fine.

Yes, I guess that is the fundamental question. How uneven it is I will try to calculate. I talked about leveling with my carpenter and he said it might be a little prizey and it might not be perfect. The thing is; I absolutely do not want to gamble with the insulation. BUT if it is only unlevel by a small amount, maybe caulking - as you said - will do the trick. So, Stuart, what should the breaking point be? Bear in mind that I can risk a bit of leakage or some acoustical issues as long as I'm not rattling the building or get myself evicted, you know. And remember, the basement is under streetlevel and there are no apartments at that level, you need to go up another concrete level to get to the actual living quarters. AND; with current - non-existing - insulation there little or no audible leakage up to street level when banging away at 24" kick drum full throttle. See where I'm desperately trying to get at? I really want to keep it all basic; M-S-M with two layers of drywall and just carpet/parquette over the concrete slab, to begin with. Thanks again, guys. Share more if you're in the mood. It's all coming in handy!

The biggest concern, for me, with an uneven foundation is the potential for trip ups when walking. If that isn't the issue, it can be handled easily enough. Take a straight edge piece of lumber and lay it on the floor, straight edge side facing the floor. What width of cracks are you seeing? Is it a gradual dip, an obnoxious up and down, a little here a little there? If the area is relatively smooth with gentle highs and lows, then caulking with high grade silicone underneath the bottom plates of the walls before raising, should correct the issue. Of course, it is always advisable to caulk the sole plate again, at the areas that met the slab, once walls have been erected. Than caulk again after ever layer of wall panel. Placing cork or some type of flexible rubber underneath the bottom plate of the wall can also fill the voids if they seem to be creating "holidays" or spots that you can see under. It has to be low enough density to smash under the weight of the wall and fill the voids that exist.

Hi Guys. xSpace - thanks for the input on the bottom plates. I feel ok now, think it's going to work out fine. Just a quick question about HVAC. I have decided to skip it inside of the Live Room and ventilate air by just opening up and let the air flow whenever the live room is not used (I know it will get warm). But! The HVAC is going to be inside of the outer leaf, do you guys think this is a problem? Do I have to put insulation around it as if it were inside of the LR? Or can I keep it as is, since it's outside of the inner leaf? Thanks for all and any replies. //Alex