some suggestion for a new small hobbyst studio

hi everyone, this is my first post here, looking for some advice! i'm, an hobbyst musician, i play and record my own music with the aid of computer, and i play several instrument, acoustic (guitar, flute and some etnic instruments), electric guitar, synths... i don't record "loud" instruments and i record mainly for myself. My real work is not related on music... and music it's just an hobby. i will move into a new home this year, where i will have a small room to be used exclusively for music recording/production. the house is in a residential building with other families both above and below me. the room is 250x415 cm and about 296 cm high. there is a glass balcony door,which must be accessed, in front of the entrance door. the floor is made of wood (palquet) the entrance door has glass, but the glass will be replaced by wood. i attach a small map of the room and some photos to give you the idea (the only piece of furniture you see will be trashed!) i have a lot of stuff to place in the room: a 5 octave keyboard rack instuments: korg 01 RW (2 rack units) yamaha TG77 (3 rack units) sequencer (3 rack units) behringer Vamp (2 rack units) preamp (1 rack unit) patchbay (1 rack unit) analog/digital converter (1/2 rack wide, 1 rack unit tall) 2 pairs of speakers (monitors+hifi speakers) 5 guitars and one bass... a hi-fi consisting of a preamp, a cdplayer and an audio cassette reader plus several other thing: a tabletop synth, a tabletop preamp, a desktop midi-controller, a printer and of course a PC. i tried to place the things with google sketchup, and i included also the skp project. (the listen position is placed with the back at the entrance door and look out of the window) my goal would be to have a "good sounding" room to listen music and to mix music. i will also record some acoustic instruments in it, but of course i do't have space to accomodate also a recording-corner... so recording acoustics is put to second place. i would be happy just to obtain a good listening environment for mixing and listening! my greatest concern is where to place the 2+2 speakers. i thought about placing them along the side walls, at the height of my ears (when i will seat...) because putting it on the table would mean to reduce the working space a lot and, perhaps, to place them very close one to the other. consider that there must a be a path of at least 50 cm beside the table (which is 2 meters wide) to reach the balcony door... i some money to buy absorber and some bass trap beside the balcony door, but i don't know where to place them for maximum results! i'm thinking also about building a slightly beveled ceiling with some sound damping into it but i have to ask about the price... (sorry but i don't know the correct translation, i hope it is clear!). in this case what would be the a "good" angle for the additional ceiling? for now, i have arranged my gear like this, which seems, to me, a confortable position for everything: and here you can download the skp project http://www.alchemystudio.it/Studio/alchemystudio.zip i have place a library and some bookshelves because i have to place a lot of things, papers and books on them. the guitars could be hang on the wall closer one to the other to save some space. i tried to place the monitors and the listening position with the 60° angle, but i have no idea about the best position of the listening spot into the room (closer to the balcony door? closer to the entrance door?) i dont' know if rotating the working position by 90° (either clockwise or anticlockwise) would be a wise solution.... what i know is that it would be a much less confortable and "ergonomic". can you give me some hints? if you need some more information, i will give you! i don't have a very high budget, maybe 1000-2000 euro for buying absorber/diffusors/bass traps.

Hi Bosone, and welcome! You sure are trying to put a lot of stuff in a small place!

i would be happy just to obtain a good listening environment for mixing and listening!

The main issue I see with your room, is that it is not symmetrical. You will never get a good stereo image like that. The bookshelf on the right wall is going to do all kinds of bad things to your acoustics, and if you want a good room to mix in, then it will have to go. You need to make your room as symmetrical as you possibly can, at least from the speakers to the mix position.

the floor is made of wood (palquet)

That's good! Leave it like that. Don't put carpet on it.

the entrance door has glass, but the glass will be replaced by wood.

I would suggest that you replace the door with a "solid-core" door, and put good seals around the edges. It will help to reduce the noise going into the rest of the house. Not much, of course, sine you are not doing any isolation, but it will help some.

my greatest concern is where to place the 2+2 speakers. i thought about placing them along the side walls, at the height of my ears (when i will seat...) because putting it on the table would mean to reduce the working space a lot and, perhaps, to place them very close one to the other.

Good! You do not want them on the table, for several reasons: vibration, reflection, height, etc. Put them on stands. Heavy stands! Very heavy! The center of the speaker should be at the same height as your ears when you are seated, so choose a stand that gets the correct height. You want the speakers and your head to be at the corners of a an equilateral triangle, with an angle of 60 degrees at your head. Actually, the triangle corner at your head should be a few inches BEHIND your head. You want the speakers to be as far apart as possible, between 1 and 2 meters apart. If this geometry does not work for you, then you can also set the speakers to get a 90 degree angle at your head. That usually works better for very small rooms. The speakers should NOT go in corners! Unless you have a very steep bass roll-off control on your speakers, do not put them in corners. That will distort the bass response. I have to do other stuff now, but I'll try to reply to the rest later. - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Hi Bosone, and welcome! You sure are trying to put a lot of stuff in a small place!

that's right! :P but the space is that one, and i just love all my stuff!! :mrgreen:

The main issue I see with your room, is that it is not symmetrical. You will never get a good stereo image like that. The bookshelf on the right wall is going to do all kinds of bad things to your acoustics, and if you want a good room to mix in, then it will have to go. You need to make your room as symmetrical as you possibly can, at least from the speakers to the mix position.

that's a good suggestion... but i don't know if and how will be able to put it in practice... i though about placing the shelves as far as possbile from the speakers on my right (imagine the listener seated on the table). for example i could try to place as high as possible the shelf with the stereo and the printer, and to keep it as far as possible from the speaker....

my greatest concern is where to place the 2+2 speakers.

You want the speakers and your head to be at the corners of a an equilateral triangle, with an angle of 60 degrees at your head. Actually, the triangle corner at your head should be a few inches BEHIND your head. You want the speakers to be as far apart as possible, between 1 and 2 meters apart. If this geometry does not work for you, then you can also set the speakers to get a 90 degree angle at your head. That usually works better for very small rooms.

actually, if i place them on stand on the walls, they would be about 2.3 meters apart, and i will respect the "60° rule" i neve heard about 90 degrees, altough...

The speakers should NOT go in corners! Unless you have a very steep bass roll-off control on your speakers, do not put them in corners. That will distort the bass response.

yes, this seems quite obvious... since the speaker, the table and the seat are related, i can try to move all these object towards the center of the room... but i have also to consider space optimization... what whould be an ideal speaker distance from the corner? i can also buy 2 bass traps and put them beside the balcony door... what about it?

I have to do other stuff now, but I'll try to reply to the rest later.

thanks a lot, anyway! ;) PS: one of my greatest concern is about building or not a beveled ceiling (is this the correct definition?!?!) with some sound damping/absorption in the space between the room ceiling and the new ceiling... do you think it's worth?

i'm thinking also about building a slightly beveled ceiling with some sound damping into it but i have to ask about the price... (sorry but i don't know the correct translation, i hope it is clear!). in this case what would be the a "good" angle for the additional ceiling?

To be honest, I don't think that is worthwhile in your case. You need an angle of about 10 or 12 degrees, at least. The ceiling needs to be lowest over your speakers, sloping up behind you, to be highest at the rear wall. It's a lot of work, and I don't think you would get much benefit in the room you describe.

i have place a library and some bookshelves because i have to place a lot of things, papers and books on them.

Maybe it would be better to get a desk that has a lot of drawers in it! Those shelves are not a good idea.

but i have no idea about the best position of the listening spot into the room (closer to the balcony door? closer to the entrance door?)

Start at about 38% of the length of the room (front wall to back wall). That should be a good place, but it is not a magic number. Start there, and move your head and the speakers around a bit, until you find the best place.

i dont' know if rotating the working position by 90° (either clockwise or anticlockwise) would be a wise solution.... what i know is that it would be a much less confortable and "ergonomic".

Exactly! Turning sideways would not be good. You would have your speakers firing across the room, over a very short distance, and straight at a wall! Regarding treatment, you will need bass trapping, lots of it, in the corners. Very thick fiberglass or mineral wool, floor to ceiling. You also need absorption at your first reflection points. Start with that treatment, then figure out what else need to be done, based on measurements. - Stuart -

PS: one of my greatest concern is about building or not a beveled ceiling (is this the correct definition?!?!) with some sound damping/absorption in the space between the room ceiling and the new ceiling... do you think it's worth?

Ahh! OK, I think I understand what you are saying: What you might need is a "cloud", which basically means just some acoustic absorptive material (fiberglass, mineral wool, etc) on the ceiling directly above your chair, and extending towards the speakers. That is definitely a good idea. And to save money, don't BUY bass traps!. Build them yourself. It is much cheaper, and you can get better trapping, probably. Search this web site for the word "bass trap" and "superchunk" and you should find many threads that talk about how to build them, easily and cheaply. - Stuart -

actually, if i place them on stand on the walls, they would be about 2.3 meters apart, and i will respect the "60° rule" i neve heard about 90 degrees, altough...

90 degrees is fine too. It does not have to be 60 degrees. Here are some examples: viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11447&p=82760&hilit=speaker+60+90#p82760 http://johnlsayers.com/Pages/Hello_Testing.htm - Stuart -

Soundman2020 wrote:

Maybe it would be better to get a desk that has a lot of drawers in it! Those shelves are not a good idea.

mhhh... what about trying to get a symmetrical shelves both at the left and at the right? placed at an heigth of about 2 meter? have to think about it.. thanks again

hat about trying to get a symmetrical shelves both at the left and at the right? placed at an heigth of about 2 meter?

That would make the room symmetrical, yes, but it would not solve the issues with the weird acoustic things those shelves will be doing to your sound! If you really HAVE to have shelves, I would place them as far back as possible, well behind your ears, and do some kind of thick absorbent treatment on the front surface (facing the speakers) and underneath the shelves, to maybe help mitigate the problems a bit. But overall, I'd try to get rid of them completely, if possible. You also need lots pf bass traps. I'd suggest starting with the entire wall/ceiling corner on the rear wall, and the vertical corners too, as much as possible, plus figure out sonething for the back of the door. - Stuart -

i continue to think my future room what about hanging an absorber above the listenting point, inclined with respect to the ceiling like this: i feel that this "thing" should absorb sound avoiding reflection between the ceiling and the floor, is it right? what material should i choose as absorber or diffuser? what should be the correct XY dimensions? what about the position and the best angle with respect to the ceiling? where should i place it with respect to the speaker and to the listening point? and, most important... would it be useful or a waste of time and money?? btw...does it have a technical name so that i can search for something in the net?

The technical name is overhead cloud or simply cloud absorber. Your speaker placement in the corners is going to be an issue. Sound tends to build up in corners and placing the speakers in those corners doesn't have a positive effect.

thanks for the reply and the suggestion actually, the spekaer would be some 20-30 cm far from the corners. i thought about the issue. i thought about placing bass traps in the 2 corners beside the balcony door, and maybe some absorber just behind the speakers.

gretings, i have now some doubts about building the corner bass traps. i have two main problems: 1) on the left there is the window, the space for the bass trap is limited. 2) on the right there is the heater, so the bass trap must begin above it, about 1m from the floor about 1, i see two options. a) i install the bass trap inclined 45° with respect to the wall, but this will result in a smaller trap: b) i install the bass trap with an inclination different than 45°: and this may result in a longer trap, even if the maximum distance from the wall will be the same on the right side of the room the trap could be bigger (i have more room on this side) and could be placed farther from the wall. i know that building 2 different traps will ruin the symmetry, but the room is not symmetric from the start... regarding trap heigth, i have two options: i can build two traps with the same heigth: or i can make use of all the space i have for the left trap: (this independetly from the left trap inclination as discussed for point 1). what would be the wisest choice?

I think I'd go with the biggest possible bass trap, even if it is not at a 45° angle. The angle isn't that important: Even if it is flat against the wall it will still have some effect (as long as it is thick), except that it will lose 6dB of effectiveness. The slight change in angle you show probably won't make much difference at all. Just make it BIG and THICK. You could also do another (additional) bass trap across the top of that door, angled 45° to the ceiling, for extra trapping. - Stuart -

Also, if your still going with a "cloud" your have it angled in the wrong direction. as soundman said it needs to be lower above the speakers and then angle up towards the ceiling. Forcing sound waves away from your head into the Shelving/absorbers on your back wall.

HI there. Maybe try and get the bookshelves lower down, well below your ear level? If you put guitars on your wall they are going to cause you issues as well. What are your priorities? If your top priority is a good sounding room start with that. speaker position bass trapping first reflection points cloud Put these basics into your room first, add a chair, nothing more, and start listening and measuring. Add more treatments,adjust speaker placement. chair placement, listen, measure, repeat until satisfied that the room sounds as good as you can get. Now add your desk, equipment etc. Add it slowly, stop and listen between adding pieces. Regards, Steve

thanks again so, the cloud absorber should be angled in the opposite direction, right? in any case, should it be placed at the point of first refections of the speakers with respect to the listening position? regarding the guitars, i think i will go for a stand like this one: this will free (part of) the left wall, but probably the bass and maybe one more guitar (if i ever buy it...) will be hanged somewhere.... on the left wall there should be room for a small absorber for first reflections. @cold: the priority should be a "good" listening/mixing room, but not aimed to pro recording, just hobbyst productions...

apart hanging the bass trap on the walls beside the windows (which i will do for sure - see also http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11645 would it be a wise idea to use these things into the corners between the ceiling and the walls along all the room perimeter? http://www.mercatinomusicale.com/mm/a_bass-trap-alta-densit-224-30kg-m3-trappole-per-basse-frequenze-romiangolo_id1255932.html specs are 30 kg/m3 and they should be made of acoustic foam, without any frame, i thought to fix them by first attaching with nails a thin wood plank to the wall with nails and then glue the trap to the wood. i would put them in all the room perimeter, exept for the window wall, because there is the curtain. the price would not be too high (around 150 €)...