First studio project and first design...(edited and updated)

Hello everyone! This is I think my fourth edit of this so maybe I can get it right this time. For the sake of time on everyone's part, I will give as much information as I can in as concise a manner possible. I have read the SAE reference material regarding acoustics, standing waves, modes, absorbtion, diffusion, blah, blah, etc. You get the idea. I have also looked at many of the posts here and design ideas that John has posted as well as many of you others. I know I still have a lot to learn regarding the principles of acoustics and how to get the most out of my rooms with what I have to work with. So, I am hoping that by getting some advice and information from people that have much more knowledge than me, such as all of you, that I can build the best sounding studio possible without getting too crazy. I'll probably need to sell my house again someday and there isn't a huge call for recording studios in the basement. So, I'd like to keep it as simple and minimally invasive as possible. Because of that, I know that I'm going to need to cut some corners here and there and sacrifice some things like total isolation, (unless thats what I want to get from my wife), but I'd still like to have as good a sound quality as possible. So.... ...All that being said, let's get down to business. 1) Where am I? I live in a town called Northbrook, IL. We are about 25 miles due North of the City of Chicago. Yes, "The Windy City". Home of President Obama. (Wow, that sounds weird.) Because this is a huge metropolitan area, finding the right products won't be an issue like Stuart is having in Chile. (Stu, let me know what you need. Maybe I can get it to you.) 2)What am I attempting to do? Attempting is a good word. At first I was thinking I wanted the best of everything and everything had to be perfect. But I've realized since then that that's not real practical for this particular project. And that just having a place for my band to record in a decent sounding room would be a good start. I would also like to get a relatively flat response for accurate mixing in the control room without spending all my money would be nice. And lastly, I would like to have dedicated vocal booth as well. I want to keep the live room as big as possible so as to possibly fit a 4 piece band (two guitars, bass, and drums) if need be for live recordings/rehearsals. As far as the isolation goes, like I said, this needs to be relatively simple and I'm not sure how much going all out with double walls and such make sense here. Instead I am thinking of putting 2x8 top and bottom plates and staggering the 2x4 studs between the control room and live room to get a touch more isolation than I would with just 2x4 walls. I am however more concerned with the shapes of the rooms, and the combinations of absorbption, diffusion, and trapping. I have used Auralex products in other rooms with some decent results. Although, I never had them truely tuned by an acoustician. 3) What phase am I in? Obviously I am still in the early stages of planning and design. The most important part of the project. And also the most frustrating I think. Any screw ups here I know greatly affect the final product, and the final budget. (90% design 10% construction) I think I read that somewhere! Oh yeah... tht was here! 4) How loud am I? I guessing that the most important factor is the maximum loudness here. We all know how loud drummers are, and although I am not a gorilla behind the kit, I can play pretty loud sometimes. Add the rest of the band, and I have a pretty good idea that levels are going to reach 115-120dB easy. For mixing however, I know that 80-90dB max is optimum. Fortunately, my closest neighbors are far enough away that it shouldnt be a problem. Sound transmition between the live room and the control room, thats really the only area I am truly concerned with. I haven't had any complaints in several years from neighbors. And I/we typicaly don't play late at night. 5) What do I record? All styles of music but most of the time along the lines of pop alternative rock. Similar styles to Mellencamp, Train, Petty, Wilco. I would also like to use it to record drum lessons for my students. 6) Budget? Here is where things have changed the most since the original idea came to mind. Although the money isn't so much of an issue, I would like to do this as cost efficiently as possible. Probably less than $5,000 - $7,500 on construction. What do I have to work with? Unfortunately only about 600 sq.ft. (see Figure 1.) finished basement with mostly 8' ceilings. There are some areas however where the ducting drops the ceiling down to 7'. (The house with the 2000 sq.ft. unfinished basement and the 9' ceilings wasn't in an area that was condusive to having a child as it was two houses off of a very busy street. Can we move that house to my neighborhood!?) Whats it made of? The foundation walls and floor is all concrete. The walls are 10-12" thick. I am not exactly sure how thick the floor is, typical is 4" on 6-12" of crushed 3/4" stone. The previous owners finished the basement using 2x4 studs spaced 16" O.C. with fiberglass insulation on the exterior walls. The walls are 1/2" drywall. The ceiling is also drywall, not sure if its 1/2" or 5/8". They have carpeted the floor with a lovely berber. Figure 1. Shows the current walls, rooms and door framing layout with dimensions as close as I could get them. So that pretty much sums things up for your questions to me. And although I am sure I will have many more questions arise as this project progresses. So here are some pictures of what I've done so far. I have been using Sketchup for 2 full days now and this is what Ive come up with. Figure 1 shows the basic layout of my basement. Like I said it is a finished basement, I just didn't draw in the insulation or drywall. In Figure 2. You can see I have added foundation walls, insulation, and have "borrowed" some of the components from a few of John's drawings. Although I did change some things to make them a little bit of my own. To begin with I focused on the control room. I figured that this was the most important factor to begin with. This is the second attemp at putting the control room in this general location. And I think this time it works, at least I think it does. You tell me? (See Figure 3.) I know it's on the small side but I want as much room for a live room as possible. Figure 4. shows another angle and some of the absorption and diffusion. The 3 broadband panels on the side wall would be Auralex studio foam. John had different panels in that exact spot in his Components drawing where I "borrowed" the front resonators, speaker boxes, etc. from. Thanks for that John if your reading! The one thing in this room, which I thought turned out pretty cool, is the rear diffusor. And I actually made it myself. :yahoo: (Figure 5.) Anybody else like it? So I guess my big question is... Am I on the right track? Or do I need to try again? Now for some of the other questions ... 1) I would like to put a vocal booth somewhere next to the control room. Where and how would you recommend I do that? (See Figure 2.) 2) What can I expect to spend on construction? I have no idea how much something like this would cost. Can anyone give me some ideas of at least a ball park? Is $5,000 - $7,500 realistic? More or less? I would probably do the work myself. 3) I have heard pros and cons about diffusion in the control room. (In the SAE reference material actually.) Your thoughts? 4) The components that I used look like they could be made so that they could be removable and portable if and when it's time to sell this house. Is that possible? 5) Are the dimensions for my control room ok so as not to have problems with similar modes? I hope I did this right this time. Please shower me with you thoughts and/or ideas. Thanks Bryon

Hi Bryon, There is an announcement at the top of the forum about what to do to assure getting as many responses as possible. The announcement leads to this post. Actually, several people, who are experts on this forum, will not reply if you do not do what is written in the post. Many others who are very helpful, will not reply out of respect for the moderators' wishes.

Here is the first idea for the Live Room. Again, I am trying to keep this as simple as possible. Comments?attachment=4]Control Room-Live Room.png[/attachment]In this next room, which is located just next to the control room, I would like to put a vocal booth. Any thoughts?I would be happy to send a skp. file if someone tells me how to send it here. Please let me know what things I might need to change. Thanks

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Morning, The control room might be a little small. How many people would you have in there at the one time? Also you haven't shown the height restrictions. Can you post the Skp. file. 7ft is getting pretty low- it's been done before, but depends on which room it's in.

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Hi Bryon. A few links that Mr. Sayers recommends each of us read: viewtopic.php?f=17&t=7572 This one is vastly important: http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html In addition to the one Stuart posted. It's required reading, but it is required for the educational benefits. And everyone knows, smart people are happy people! Just look at Lou!!!! Good luck, Brien

Exit 4 Wrote about studio 4: :wink: :wink:

smart people are happy people!

My hat to you, kind Sir. :oops: :oops: Kind regards as always my friend. Lou. 8)

Updated design pictures. Let me know your thoughts please. It's been awfully quiet.The room dimensions are as follows: Live Room - 20' 10 3/4" x 15' 3 1/8" Control Room - 12' 8" x 9' 8 1/16" Vocal Room - 7' 8 7/8" x 6' 9 5/16" x 2' 2 5/8" Are these ratios OK? Are the rooms shaped ok? Is the alcove area leading into the utility room going to be a problem? And if so, can it be treated using a portable absorbper? Any help would be greatly appreciated. Thanks, Bryon

"Sound transmition between the live room and the control room, thats really the only area I am truly concerned with. " Hi again Bryon. Getting good with that Sketchup program:) A few things that work for me is to follow wall lines and see where they intersect. Your current design has the exterior of the build using a two leaf design and that is good. But following those lines around you see where corners tie into other walls and existing water heater walls tie into control room walls that intersect back into the perimeter walls. These are the areas that allow flanking, a big contributor to decreased isolation. Using a 2X8 top/bottom plate and staggered 2X4 studs really isn't helping your cause. 2X4 top/bottom plates and completely seperate walls will be far better. But it is going to depend on getting all the other intersects disconnected. I think small rooms, like vocal and such, are more part of the "blind leading the unwilling" syndrome. Better usage of smaller spaces might be a machine room. A small room tends to become acoustically dead as it pertains to vocal/reamp rooms, it is the only way to handle it:) With a few more days, one might even be able to see how the water heater closet could be just as effective? (Assuming electric and not a gas unit) But you do have a good start.

I'm curious about that large diffuser on the rear wall of your control room. Experts here have explained that diffusion in a small room is not a good idea, so I'm wondering why you think you need it? Wouldn't it be better to use that space for a much deeper absorber on the rear wall?

Thanks Stuart. That was actually one of my questions. I really wasn't sure if I needed it or not. I hadn't come across the info yet saying that about small rooms. Well, the diffusor looked cool anyway! I am currently working on the stuff xSpace had talked about as far as the double walls. I know I should have done it that way in the first place. But I was more or less trying to get the hang of sketchup. Look for the update within a couple days. Gracias amigo! Hay un buen dia!

Hey Stuart, is this better for the back of the control room? Using the Auralex Sunburst broadband diffusors? I also changed the framed bass traps to the Auralex MegaLENRD's in the control room. They show the back of a control room on their website that has the same set up as this. Plus, Auralex is readily available here, it looks nice, it's easy to install, it works very well, and it comes in a variety of colors. I would like to use it throughout the studio for a majority of my absorbtion, diffusion, and trapping needs. Let me know what you guys think. Thanks Bryon

Thanks Stuart. That was actually one of my questions. I really wasn't sure if I needed it or not. I hadn't come across the info yet saying that about small rooms.

Your going to get some pretty strong nulls and peaks in the low end coming from that back wall. I would put thick absorption (6" panels made from mineral wool or rigid fiberglass) on the back wall with MAYBE diffusion around that.

Hey Stuart, is this better for the back of the control room? Using the Auralex Sunburst broadband diffusors? I also changed the framed bass traps to the Auralex MegaLENRD's in the control room. They show the back of a control room on their website that has the same set up as this. Plus, Auralex is readily available here, it looks nice, it's easy to install, it works very well, and it comes in a variety of colors. I would like to use it throughout the studio for a majority of my absorbtion, diffusion, and trapping needs. Let me know what you guys think.

I am not a huge fan of foam for bass trapping as it absorbs way more high end then low end in the room. Glenn

OK. Here is the updated control room rear wall. Thanks Glenn for your input. I appreciate it. Nice stuff on your site by the way. Anyway, when I redid this, I based the corner wedges and rear 6" panels in the control room and vocal booth on the GIK product specs. I hope this is better. I am redoing some of the traping designs in the live room now as well, using the GIK products as a reference. Should be interesting making the diffusors in Sketchup!

That back wall is PERFECT. If you need more control you can always straddle upper ceiling/wall corners if need be.

Nice stuff on your site by the way.

Thanks!! :) Glenn

Thanks Glenn! I'm glad I finally got something right! So I am now going to move to the Live/Tracking Room. Here are some different angles of the current design. I have used a mixture of acoustical treatments in my design. The blue panels represent the GIK 244 bass traps, the gray panels are GIK 242 acoustic panels, and the white things are my feeble attempt at making diffusors in Sketchup. Also you can obviously see where I have used the slot resonators. Is this a good mixture? Also give me your thoughts and expert opinions about the shape of the room, and will my ratios be ok? Tracking Room dimmensions - 8' x15' 3 5/8" x 20' 10 3/4" Thanks Bryon

The shape looks pretty good to me. If you do plan on using some of our products I would recommend emailing me this plan and let me have a few other guys look at it also. Glenn

"So, I'd like to keep it as simple and minimally invasive as possible. Because of that, I know that I'm going to need to cut some corners here and there and sacrifice some things like total isolation" I think he is putting the cart before the horse. There is no guarantee, at crunch time, how this build will even look. It would be most advantageous to the OP if he realized that sound isolation and sound acoustics are two different things and one does not accomplish the same as the other.

I noticed that you have double doors on one side of the live room: How are you going to seal those?

:cen: :oops: :? :idea: http://shop3.mailordercentral.com/super ... TRIP7BROWN http://shop3.mailordercentral.com/super ... D42746%2DT Will these work?

What is on the other side of those doors, and how much isolation do you need? I doubt that those seals you linked to are going to help all that much. They seem to be weather-proofing seals, not sound isolation seals. Does the manufacturer provide any info on the acoustic properties of those seals? To me, it looks like your seals are your weakest link. If those seals only get you, for example, an STC of 30, then there isn't much point in spending all that money on building a wall that gets you an STC of 50 or 55. - Stuart -

I'm looking at the design of your control room, on this pic: download/file.php?id=25837&mode=view I'm wondering if that asymmetrical "kink" in the front left corner but not the front right corner is going to be a problem for your stereo imaging. I'm not sure, but I've seen so many comments here about how symmetry is of utmost importance, and that kink seems like it might be an issue. Especially if you plan to soffit-mount your speakers, which is what your design shows! Unless you are using totally flat electrostatic speakers, it looks to me like the back of speaker will have to poke clean through that "kink" corner! It looks like you need to re-design that corner. _ Stuart _

Well, I've made some changes to correct a few things here. First I have made the control room symetrical by duplicating the "kink", as Stuart put it, on the opposite wall. Because the speakers are actually to be mounted in the component soffit, it shouldn't be a problem. Also I have taken out the 2 x 8 wall and put in two 2 x 4 walls between the control room, live room, and furnace and hot water heater room. (Sorry they are both gas.) As far as what is behind the double doors leading into the tracking room Stuart, There is just a hallway leading to the upstairs. Then there is another set of double doors that leads to another hallway that takes you to the vocal booth and control room. Is there something other than the links that I posted that I can use to seal those double doors to make that room airtight?

The "kink" looks better, but I'm still not convinced that the speakers will be clear of the wall! Did you check that, inside SketchUp? Build 3D speakers with the exact dimensions of the speakers you will be using, including the wooden box that goes around them, and allowing for any ventilation that might be necessary (depends on your speakers). Then check if the rear part of that entire assembly interferes with the wall. To me, it looks like it will, unless you are using extremely flat speakers

What is on the other side of those doors, and how much isolation do you need?

You only answered half of the question: How much isolation do you need? In other words, how loud will the sound be INSIDE that room, and how quiet do you need it to be OUTSIDE the room? You have a drum kit in your model, and I'm guessing bass and electric guitars too. Loud stuff. Theoretically you could be up around 120 dBC. What level do you need on the other side? Only you and those who live/work in that "outside" space can answer that question. Set up a source of the kind of music you will be playing in there, maybe with your home stereo or some such. Turn down the treble and turn up the bass (to roughly simulate poor isolation), and play the music. Get people from the "outside" area to sit/stand where they would be normally while you are tracking. Start with the volume really low, then turn it up slowly until they say they can hear it/don't like it. Measure the level at that point with a sound level meter. Now you have two numbers: Subtract "B" from "A". That is the MINIMUM amount of isolation you need, very approximately. Now that you know the numbers, you can decide how to build the wall and the door. But you need real numbers, not guesses, and you need them measured with a real meter, in a situation that closely simulates what reality will be. If you don't have real numbers to work with, it is pointless to ask questions about what type of door seals you need. It's like asking "how much food should I serve at my party next week?" when you don't even know how many people are coming! Is it just you and two buddies, or is it the entire neighborhood? Get real numbers, then you can figure out how to attain them. Having said that, I can't recall seeing any finished projects here that needed decent levels of isolation, and used double doors successfully. I may be wrong, and there have been projects like that, but I can't imagine how you would go about sealing double swinging doors to get good isolation. Rod recommends triple seals on his "superdoors", and even then they have to be done very carefully to get decent isolation. And those are huge massive single doors, not double. I think you'd have to work with a high degree of precision to get the doors to mate all around in such a manner as to create a good acoustic seal. Have you done any research on double swing doors on studios, to see: A) if other people have done it successfully, and B:) how they did it. - Stuart -