Hi folks,
I'm Keith(yet another one), a renovator/carpenter from Western Canada. I am building a studio above my garage, which is attached to my house. My main source of information so far has been "How To Build a Small Budget Recording Studio from Scratch by Mike Shea and F. Alton Everest. I have also gleaned some information from Recording.org.
I have the shell of the studio up and would like to finish for under $4-5K, which for me is just materials cost. I run an older Mac, and can't get Sketchup for it. I'm posting an image of the design, but I'm not able to put a ton of information on the actual image. Sorry. :cry:
Self evaluation:
Studio design knowledge 3/10
Understanding of acoustics 3/10, but I'm learning
Construction skills 7.5/10
Willingness to try new things, even unproven 8/10 (I could tell you all about my house, but that's for another day...)
My average loudness while recording in the space, maybe 4/10-7/10 (?)
Some details, then questions.
Shell:
The outer shell of the studio is 17' 6" X 24'. The walls are 8' high, standard 2 X 4 construction, 24" O.C. The inside of the roof is a 6:12 pitch, rising from 8'2" to 12'4 1/2" On the bottom left corner is the door to the studio. It goes to a set of stairs down one flight. The room is connected to the house via the wall on the RIGHT side of the drawing
Floor:
3/4" douglas fir T and G flooring, on 2 X 12 joists, 16" O.C. on 3 1/2" X 12" glue lam beams, on posts 12' apart. Part of the floor is cantelevered, so the actual span on the joists is 15'.
Room 1:
Likely used as the control room, as well as a recording space, is symmetrical, and is 13'3" X 16', with an average ceiling of 10' 2", for about 2100cubic feet(I'm guessing on the loss of those short angled walls at the back of the room) 1:1.3:1.57
Room 2:
The other, smaller room, is 9'2" X 16' 1", with the same average ceiling of 10'2" for a volume of about 1500 Cubic feet. Two skewed walls.1:1.1:2.59
The "main" room, when opened up:
My intention is to be able to open up the double doors, and have it behave much like one large room. Then the dimensions of that large room become about 16' X 23' X 10' 2"
Ratios
I've calculated all the room modes and there does not seem to me to be any really bad frequency pile ups.
Soundproofing, neighbours:
I live way out in the country, 1000 feet from a dead end road. The nearest neighbour is 1000 feet away. So I probably don't need to go nuts on the soundproofing to the outside world.
Uses:
I record mostly just me for now, creating drums and other instruments in Reason, I then play guitar and record vocals. I have been told that the very best solution to my space, acoustically, is to keep it as one giant room.
But I would like to expand to doing small projects for others, and I would like to be able to bring in, say, a drum kit, duo, or trio, or even have my amp wailing away in the next room and be able to more or less tell what the mic is actually picking up, if you know what I mean
i would likely have the double doors open most of the time, and use it more or less as one large room, but then if necessary, I could close them, and separate them. I understand that I'm not going to get really great transmission loss wiht the double doors, especially because there will be glass involved, but I think it will be a decent compromise.
Questions:
1-Are there any major red flags you see, that I've missed with this?
2-Should I bother to try to figure out how to make those triangular cavities created in the back of the control room into slat resonators, or just throw some absorbers, or diffusors in front of them and move on to other things?
3-Will my 'one room' concept actually behave as one large room when the 6' double doors are opened up?
4-i've read the post on 'are floating floors for you, probably not,' And I've seen a post somewhere in which Rod Gervais shows a 2" layer of 703, with 2 layers of ply on top of that. (Sorry, but I can't find the post for that one now) Is that usually the best option as far as a lightweight way of at least reducing sound transmission through the floor?
Thanks
Keith
My home studio over a garage.
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 11480.
Aloha and welcome to the forum Keith :D
A couple of initial thoughts if I may:
1 - There are several threads around here regarding building a studio above a garage, and more specifically, on an upper level floor. One of the main concerns is in regard to the increased weight of a studio build (2-3 layers of drywall/sheetrock/gypsum per leaf, acoustical treatments, insulation, studio equipment, instruments, musicians, etc) that may exceed the existing structure design. It would be a good idea to consider evaluating your structure's ability to support the additional weight.
2 - In regard to the front wall - will you be soffit mounting your monitors? There are numerous threads detailing the advantages of soffit mounting.
3 - There have been designs using sliding glass doors between the control room/live room that would facilitate your visual and open up the rooms.
Perhaps a "search" on the above topics will prove fruitful in your design stages. Be sure to check out the "Stickies" in the Reference areas of the Design, Construction & Acoustic forums, as well as the "Other Studios" section for lots of great info.
Looking forward to your design process and build!
Aloha 8)
Hey Ken - Great to see you buddy!
Kindest regards to you and Mrs Kendale.
Lou. 8)
Aloha Lou,
Hey, long time no chat!
Glad to hear your place is working out great for you. :mrgreen:
Keith, definitely check out Lou's studio thread http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=9156 for an amazing adventure!
Lou, let me pm you in order to avoid hijacking Keith's thread :wink:
Aloha! 8)
"Floor:
3/4" douglas fir T and G flooring, on 2 X 12 joists, 16" O.C. on 3 1/2" X 12" glue lam beams, on posts 12' apart. Part of the floor is cantelevered, so the actual span on the joists is 15'."
This is the part that sticks out to me. Everything that gets added mass/weight wise will transfer to the posts. The 2X12's can take extra loading as can the gluelams.
But it all sits on posts. Can the posts take it? And if the posts can take it is there any threat of joists/gluelams rolling from overloading the support floor system?
But if no weight is to be added...nevermind :)
Welcome from there to here!
Hey gents,
CooL! Thanks for the quick responses. I will do some more digging!
I've taken another look at my house drawings, as well as the actual structure. And sought my memory banks on a few things.
Regarding the structure:
Since half the house is on fill, I had the guys come out and drill 16" holes, 8-12' down(til they hit native soil, and then some). These holes were filled with rebar cages and concrete. Half the house is sitting on those pillars, the rest on native soil. The guy who did it for me had been doing a skyscraper the day before, (except they drill deeper). :D
I did install two of the posts, and under them is 30 X 30 X 10" thick concrete pads, with rebar inside, on native soil. That's the code in these parts.
I took after the beams with my tape measure, since they are still exposed in the garage. Lo and behold, my initial assessment was wrong. The one end is a 3 ply, 16" glue lam beam(apparently I wanted to span the whole distance and not have to put a post in the middle. i did eventually decide there was room to place a post, set in the same concrete, in the middle of it.)
The other beam is a dual ply, 14" glue lam beam. It is in two, 12' long sections, held up by 6 X 6's and the posts for that are on the 16" concrete pillars.
The joists go into the front of the 16" beam, and are held fast with joist hangers. On the other end, they are cantelevered over the beam, which is held fast inside the wall in which they reside. There is no chance of either beam toppling over.
I've framed dozens of houses, and wanted this sucker to be skookum(tough). When I'm long dead and gone, and they have to bulldoze this place, they're going to have to bring a big one...
I hope I've put to bed any concerns of strength issues. I have no intentions of pouring any concrete, or doing any extremely heavy-weight construction. And even if I do choose to use 3 or 4 layers of 5/8" drywall, I'm confident this construction can handle many, many times what those walls will be, as well as any live loads(Here in Canada, a floor, when loaded up with 40 PSF over it's whole area, must deflect LESS than 1/360th it's length. They don't let us get away with much at all up here).
As for Soffit mounting. I have a sort of a desk, on wheels, with my computer, screens, Wharfedale monitors, and everything I need, on wheels. I like being able to move it all around, or out of the way. But I will check on soffitt mounting to see what it's all about.
Glass Doors; True, but a 6' sliding glass door will only open up to about 33" wide of actual opening, whereas a pair of swinging doors will open to a full 6' X 6' 8" hole. I don't know if that makes a difference or not. Plus I can get them for way less money here, all that tempered glass is a king's ransom! And I know it's a minor thing, but I hate having to step over the tracks in a sliding door. Pain in the butt. I'm hoping to build the doors with just enough threshold so the door seals well.
Yeah, I've checked out some of those construction threads. I'm learning lots. Each one leads to a never ending bunny trail if you let it...
So back to those original questions:
1-Are there any major red flags you see, design wise?
2-I'll worry about this later.
3-Will my 'one room' concept actually behave as one large room when the 6' double doors are opened up?
4-i've read the post on 'are floating floors for you, probably not,' And I've seen a post somewhere in which Rod Gervais shows a 2" layer of 703, with 2 layers of ply on top of that. (Sorry, but I can't find the post for that one now) Is that usually the best option as far as a lightweight way of at least reducing sound transmission through the floor?
Thanks
Keith
You have my answers on your thread in Rod's forum.Hey gents,1-Are there any major red flags you see, design wise?
Yes.3-Will my 'one room' concept actually behave as one large room when the 6' double doors are opened up?
That second leaf was on top of a concrete floor. Nothing lightweight about the floor. Andre4-i've read the post on 'are floating floors for you, probably not,' And I've seen a post somewhere in which Rod Gervais shows a 2" layer of 703, with 2 layers of ply on top of that. (Sorry, but I can't find the post for that one now) Is that usually the best option as far as a lightweight way of at least reducing sound transmission through the floor?
I'd be interested to see your plans on how to seal those doors acoustically, where they meet in the middle.whereas a pair of swinging doors will open to a full 6' X 6' 8" hole.
Well, it won't be symmetrical with the doors open, so I wouldn't want to try mixing like that! - Stuart -3-Will my 'one room' concept actually behave as one large room when the 6' double doors are opened up?
Avare,
Thanks for your response. Yes, you did answer over at R.O., but I have changed designs since then. I made the large room the control room, and increased the largest room to 2100 from 1800 cubic feet. I re-oriented things so that the control room is long and narrow, instead of short and wide. I took out the storage closets. I abandoned the idea of building my own wood doors. I also took the roof into consideration when figuring out room modes, which I hadn't done before.
So do you see any flaws with the theory of the current plan, as it has been altered?
Soundman
No, I would not try to mix with those doors open. That would probably make everything all wonky, wouldn't it.
As for the doors, my current intention is to buy 4, prehung exterior steel doors. They come with weather stripping, and I can get magnetic weatherstripping which I then screw and caulk to the jambs, to augment that which is provided. I would then get my local glass company to make me some tempered, sealed units with varying thicknesses of glass. It won't be perfect, but this is a home project studio. I need to keep things in perspective.
Okay, now to the dreaded floor question. I will make no assumptions here.
Is there a lightweight method of treating one, or both rooms of a second floor studio like mine(3/4" ply on joists) so that when I am in one room with the doors closed, and there is music going on in the other room, the sound transmission from said floor is at least minimised? Or should I just forget it and move on?
Peace
Keith
Your room looks much better. I would suggest moving the doors back to have more symmetry about the monitoring position.
My remarks about door mass and sealing still stand. Look at Zero International seals fro what is required. If you are expecting any significant isolation form the doors, you will have to investigate double doors.
There is no light floor floating that is effective for music.
Andre
Thanks for the quick response.
I'll check that door positioning. I'll also look at Zero International and what they have to offer.
Bummer about the floor and having to live with it's sound transmission. I guess I just accept that it's a 'home studio' and move on.
So I take it that means all the serious studios are located on ground level, on concrete, huh?
Thanks again for the input. I'll start building now, and post pictures as things progress.
Cheers
Keith
I had posted my slightly revised design over at the wiring forum, and Soundman 2020 asked some questions, so I thought they ought to be addressed here. My newest design is below.
1-I have now decided to use 4, solid core interior doors, which in my experience are filled with K3, and are substantially heavier than steel exterior insulated doors. I will then weatherstrip them as best I can, and have a solid mounted door stop on one of the doors, which will have a throw bolt to hold it in place at top and bottom, much like what is done with most double doors. Then the second door closes on the first one. I admit, it won't be perfect, and i suppose the throw bolts that hold the first door in place will be a source of coupling between the doors and the rest of the studio, but once I read this:1) I'm curious as to how you plan to seal those double-swing doors? I didn't know it was possible to do that successfully. Your plan shows two sets of back-to-back double doors, hinged on the outer edges and meeting in the middle, between yoru control room and live room. How do you get a good tight acoustic seal on swinging double-doors?
I resigned myself to the fact that I can do cartwheels and handstands, or spend big coin on funky studio doors, and the low frequency sound energy is just going to travel along my floor from room to room anyway.There is no light floor floating that is effective for music. Andre
Oops. That was a line my design program drew in that I forgot to remove.2) At the front of your control room, the inner leaf appears to be directly coupled to the outer leaf. Why is that?
It's small storage closet. I'm trying to use the space effectively.3) At the right rear of your control room, there is a door that goes nowhere: it opens into the wall of your live room. Why do you have a door that goes nowhere?
Well, the CR is a complete room within a room, so I figured sound vibrations from the LR will vibrate the outer shell. IF this outer shell is decoupled from the control room, then I see no huge problem with sound transferring through that outer wall between rooms. I am in the country, 1000 feet off a dead end road, and the same distance to my nearest neighbour is so I'm not worried too much about noise escaping the LR.4) The right wall of your live room is only one leaf, and it is directly coupled to the inner leaf of the rear wall. That makes no sense at all.
The drawing is not 100% accurate. There is an 24" space between each of those doors and the corners, for bass trapping.5) You have no space at all for bass trapping in the rear corners of the control room. Why is that? A control room with no bass trapping doesn't make much sense.
Again, those are lines that weren't removed from the drawing. I'm still at the point where I can adjust. I have walls framed, but they can be moved. So if I still have serious issues, I can still resolve them. But I need to not do too much of this :horse: if my floor is going to transfer all the energy anyway. Cheers Keith6) the inner leaf and outer leaf of the wal dividing your CR from your LR, are directly coupled to the common front wall of both. It is pointless to have two walls if you have them coupled.
Hey Keith.
More comments:
That's what I'm curious about: the seal between the doors. I'm not convinced that your throw bolts will hold the first door solidly enough for the seals on the second door to do anything useful.Then the second door closes on the first one.
Oops. That was a line my design program drew in that I forgot to remove.
The drawing is not 100% accurate. There is an 24" space between each of those doors and the corners, for bass trapping.
First thing I'd suggest is to update your sketch to accurately reflect the real situation, so that folks don't wast time spotting problems that you don't have, or not spotting problems that you do have. You can see what you have. The only way we can "see" is through what you tell us, and the designs you post, and photos you post(?). - Stuart -Again, those are lines that weren't removed from the drawing.
+1 to what Stuart wrote about accuracy.
Those doors and seals will be your weak link.
The two rooms will act as coupled spaces, not one.
Andre
Hmm, since I'm not likely to be hauling anything through there bigger than a person, and maybe an amplifier, maybe I'd be better off doing 4 individual doors, with frames, and place 2 studs with drywall between the doors, if that makes sense. Then all the connections are as solid as is reasonably possible. See latest drawings.Hey Keith. More comments:That's what I'm curious about: the seal between the doors. I'm not convinced that your throw bolts will hold the first door solidly enough for the seals on the second door to do anything useful.Then the second door closes on the first one.
I didn't think it was important to get everything exactly perfect, when you can't really see scale, dimensions, or distances from what I'm able to create anyway. I've tried to create a more accurate drawing now. It's a lot more cluttered, as I'm planning out baseboard heaters, lighting, plugs, smoke detectors, etc. Cheers KeithFirst thing I'd suggest is to update your sketch to accurately reflect the real situation, so that folks don't wast time spotting problems that you don't have, or not spotting problems that you do have. You can see what you have. The only way we can "see" is through what you tell us, and the designs you post, and photos you post(?). - Stuart -
Are you referring to when the doors are open, that it will not act as one room? And are there likely to be deleterious effects under those circumstances? Thanks KeithThe two rooms will act as coupled spaces, not one. Andre
More info is better. And you still have your inner leaf coupled to your outer leaf, in both rooms, at the rear wall. In fact, your live room has no outer leaf at all on the front and right walls! Regarding that "door to nowhere" for the storage: I'd suggest that you put that door in the live room, not the control room, so that you can have space for bass trapping in the rear corner of your live room, and better isolation. Regarding your double doors: Much better like that, but why not just build one big door, instead of those to small doors? You would only have two sets of hinges, latches and seals to worry about, instead of four. Half the chances for something to wrong. And twice as easy to build. Another alternative would be large sliding glass doors, or even a sliding pocket door, if you really want a large doorway. - Stuart -I've tried to create a more accurate drawing now. It's a lot more cluttered, as I'm planning out baseboard heaters, lighting, plugs, smoke detectors, etc.
Stuart,
Rooms:
Yes, I suppose I do need to decouple that back wall of the CR from the building. I'll build a wall there. I may not worry about it for the LR tho.
Door to storage:
DUH, why didn't I think of that? It makes total sense. Sometimes I don't see the forest for the trees(insert smiley of me banging head against brick wall).
However, I am still limited in bass trapping by the access door at the bottom left, and I believe I should keep everything symmetrical, so I'll still want to put the same amount of bass trapping in each corner, correct?
Doors;
I'd be concerned about the extreme weight of a huge, solid door. Even with high end ball bearing hinges, that's a lot of strain on the wall system, unless there's a wheel at the bottom of the door to help support it, but that requires a great deal of precision all around i would think.
Glass sliding doors only give an opening the size of one door, and two sets, custom built, with varying thicknesses of tempered glass(as I've read they need to be) would be HUUUUUGE coin. I can build what I'm proposing this at reasonable cost.
I work with pocket doors all the time in my renovation business. Granted, I'm dealing with your basic domestic door and hardware, but from what I've seen, I couldn't even begin to imagine how to seal one and make it work. I think the door needs to close tightely against something to create a proper seal, no?
Thoughts?
Peace
Keith
One question, not yet brought up:
I've read conflicting reports about what to do with the back wall of the CR, and that diffusion is best, but only if the room is big enough.(sorry, I can't remember where I read that, but it might have been here)
My CR is roughly 16 long X 13 wide X 10'high(ceiling being 6:12 on 8' walls), is this a good candidate for a diffuser, like a QRD in the centre of the back wall, or is it best to just absorb there?
Further notes:
-I will be employing as much bass trapping in corners as I can afford.
-I have a friend that can do t60 tests on the rooms, and who understands what the data means.(I don't) And then I'd imagine we would add and subtract absorbtion/diffusion from there.
Taa
Keith