Just a Dad Studio / Soundroom Design Help

Hello all: As my user name implies, I'm just a Dad who has been tasked with building a studio / soundroom / jam space for my 18 year old son. My Plan My plan is to convert an existing 24' x 13' detached garage into this space. I have removed all doors and windows except the entrance door. It has a dirt floor and the 10' walls sit on concrete footings. The walls are 2" x 4" with 16" centers and tongue and groove lumber and siding covering the outside. The rafters are exposed. The nearest neighbour is 50' away, but my home,and my wife are 10' from the garage. I need the space to be availalbe for him at anytime of the day or night and need the sound to be suitably diminished. I have ordered Mr. Sayer's book, read this and other forums, digested any other info I could find online, at the library, Home Depot etc... and think that I understand the basics of soundproofing, but am struggling with a final, draft design lol. I don't want to overkill this project as the costs of doing so appear to add up very quickly. Any advice on my proposed basic room design(s) is greatly appreciated. So... my plan is to fill the existing external walls and ceiling with R12 insulation and then cover it with vapor barrier. From there, I see I have many choices. Option 1 appears to be to attach resilient channel to the existing 2 x 4 walls, and add a layer of 1/2 " drywall followed by mass loaded vinyl or green glue and then a final layer of 5/8" drywall. The floor would be attached to the existing concrete footings. It would be constructed of 2 x 4s laid over polly and filled with r12 insulation. I then intend to cover it with 1/2" tongue and groove plywood, MLV or green glue and a final layer of 5/8" plywood. I intend to cover the ceiling as I have the walls. That's my thought through option 1. lol. Option 2 is to install the R12 and vapor barrier on the walls and ceiling, and then build another set of walls and rafters 2 " in from the original set. I planned to put no drywall on the existing walls or rafters or on the side of the new wall facing the old wall. I will insulate the new wall with R12 and then use the resilient channel, MVL or green glue and the double layers of drywall on the inside of these new walls. The floor would be attached to the sides of the footings and constructed as described in option 1. The walls rest on the floor and are attached to the existing rafters. If required, I could / would build a separate ceiling, not attached to the existing rafters? From what I've read I need to achieve an STC of 55 or greater to avoid my neghbors and my wife from putting the run on me. Location: I live in Thunder Bay, Ontario Canada Budget I have $ 3 - 5000 cdn to spend including the HVAC. Am I on the right track? I live in a rather remote part of North America and material and shipping is an issue. If there are any suggestions out there that can help me save time, money and shipping, I'm all ears. Thank you for any help or direction you can give me. Kevin

Hi Kevin, and welcome! Here are a few random thoughts and questions and suggestions. The good news is that you are on the right track, but with some caveats: First: What instrument does your son play? You have rather different requirements if he plays drums for a rock band, or the piccolo! 18 years old? I'm guessing drums, bass, or electric guitar? When you say that you "need the sound to be suitably diminished", what are your expectations? To hear nothing at all? To hear something vaguely and indistinctly? To hear the music noticeably but distant? To hear it like a stereo playing in the room next door?

the costs of doing so appear to add up very quickly.

I reckon that the sound that you just heard is a collective murmur from hundreds of studio builders around the world, all mumbling "Man, you can say THAT again!". My own cost estimate has tripled since I started, and I haven't even hammered the first nail yet.

So... my plan is to fill the existing external walls and ceiling with R12 insulation and then cover it with vapor barrier.

I'd suggest that you first beef up the inner surface of that wall with a couple of layers of gypsum board (="drywall", ="sheetrock"). You can cut it to shape and fit it in between the studs from the inside of the wall, seal it around the edges with caulk, and hold it in place with cleats. At least two layers, maybe three, depending on what your son plays and what your expectations are for sound level in your house. I don't know if the vapor barrier is a good idea: I suspect not, but I'll leave that to the acoustic experts. But you do need the insulation, and lots of it. Either fiberglass or mineral wool (="rockwool") will work fine.

resilient channel and then 1/2 " drywall followed by mass loaded vinyl or green glue

Forget the mass loaded vinyl (MLV), and go for the green glue. MLV is very expensive. An extra layer of gypsum board will give you the same effect, and is much cheaper. Or a layer of green glue in between two layers of gypsum board is about the same as three layers of gypsum board. MLV is not cost effective. Don't waste your money. But Green Glue (GG) really is worth the money, especially if we are talking "drums" or "bass guitar" here. GG is REALLY effective for very low frequencies. Nothing beats it at the price. Do this, but not as "option #1". Do it as "option #2" (see below).

and then a final layer of 5/8" drywall

Use 5/8 everywhere. You don't really need to mix different thicknesses, which is a recommendation that you'll find on some forums. Not necessary. Just get all 5/8 and Green Glue, and you'll be fine.

The floor would be attached to the existing concrete footings. It would be constructed of 2 x 4s laid over polly and filled with 1" styrofoam.

Have you considered pouring a concrete slab right on top of the dirt, but not attached to the existing concrete? That would be your absolute best solution. The trouble with building a wooden floor is that if you don't do it right, it will resonate at certain frequencies, which is not good. It won't hurt the sound isolation much, but the room could end up sounding bad and be unpleasant to play in. A concrete slab would take care of that, and you can just pour it directly on the dirt, with a bit of rebar in it, and leave a slight gap around the edge, between the new slab and the existing concrete footings. That will give you excellent isolation. There is nothing better, in fact. And pouring a slab is much simpler than trying to build a wooden floor and get it right acoustically. Just dig, level, frame, lay sand, rebar, and pour.

Option 2 is to install the R12 and vapor barrier on the walls and ceiling, and then build another set of walls 2 " in from the original set. I planned to put no drywall on the side of the new wall facing the old wall, but to insulate the new wall and then use the resilient channel, foam or green glue and double layers of drywall on the inside of these new walls.

Option 2 is the way to go, absolutely! And build those walls on top of the new slab, not the existing footings, and NOT a footing attached to the existing footing. Pour the new slab with a footing built in around the edge, and build the new wall on that. This is the best possible situation, with the greatest possible isolation. You want mechanical separation between your outer "leaf" (the existing wall, beefed up) and your inner "leaf" (the new wall), so that they do not touch anywhere.

From what I've read I need to achieve an STC of 55 or greater to avoid my neghbors and my wife from putting the run on me.

If you do it as above, and do it properly, you will have STC 63, or better. But don't rely too much on STC rating alone. STC does not deal with low frequencies, which is where drum kits and bass guitars live. Good low frequency transmission loss (TL) is what you are after, and the only way to get that is with Mass-Spring-Mass. The "Mass" is your gypsum boar on the outside of each set of studs, and the "spring" is the combination of the air space between the walls, filled with insulation.

Am I on the right track? I live in a rather remote part of North America and material and shipping is an issue.

You are definitely on the right track! Keep the construction simple, with normal 2x4 framing, but 24 OC for the new walls (the existing 16 OC walls are fine, but 24 OC improves isolation a bit) and normal 5/8 drywall and normal fiberglass or rockwool insulation. The only exotic thing you need is Green Glue. The rest is all pretty standard. Good luck with your build! - Stuart - ---------- PS. I'm not an expert on this: Just repeating the advice that I've learned from the experts here.

Adding to what Stuart just wrote, you wrote:

I have $ 3 - 5000 cdn to spend including the HVAC.

Get a quote from your local HVAC supplier describing the building, and a 300 fpm maximum air flow velocity AT THE GRILLS. Count how many sheets of drywall you envision using and get a quote that volume. Green glue is ~$20/tube, with 2 tubes per 4x8 layer recommended. It can be used at 1 tube/sheet with reduced performance. Without any further details, the best I can say on budget is studios are twice as expensive as home construction per square foot, or about 25% more expensive than commercial office space construction. That is enough for you to get started to see how realistic your budget expectations are. Without any further details, the best I can say on budget is studios are twice as expensive as home construction per square foot, or about 25% more expensive than commercial office space construction. ps. My cousin went to University in Thunder Bay. A beautiful part of the country. Andre

Thank you for the reply Soundman2020. Who made this stuff so darn complicated lol. So Option 2, the decoupled room would be best for my son and his drums. Green glue between 5/8s drywall. and then do I the resilient channel as well. I can not install a new concrete slab so I really, really, really needs some help on how to make a 2 x 4 supported floor work in this application. any suggestions on how I reduce the boom would be appreciated. Thank you very much for the response. Kevin

You're welcome! I'm just trying to give back some of the invaluable help I got from this wonderful place!

So Option 2, the decoupled room would be best for my son and his drums. Green glue between 5/8s drywall. and then do I the resilient channel as well.

You can skip the RC, actually. If you are doing fully decoupled double stud walls with 5/8 drywall and green glue, then you don't need RC as well. It won't really gain you anything worthwhile. Save yourself some more pennies! (Aren't you glad you came here? We keep saving you money!) I can't help you much with wooden floors: I haven't looked into that at all, since mine is a concrete slab. All I know about wooden floors over hollow spaces is that if you do it wrong, you could end up with resonance, and that might not be good. Maye one of the "floor experts" can help you out on that?

Hi Andre: Thanks for your answers and questions. When you say:

Get a quote from your local HVAC supplier describing the building, and a 300 fpm maximum air flow velocity AT THE GRILLS.

That draws me into the whole HVAC discussion that I have not settled on yet. If I build the room within the room, it complicates the HVAC solution. My initial thought was to install in-floor radiant heating as I was told that a standard hanging garage type gas heater would result in wide swings in humidity and temperature and therfore not create the proper environment. Do you agree? As for the cooling and ventilation, I do not have a solution yet. Obviously I need to install both, but I don't know how I'm going to do it given the room within the room concept.

Count how many sheets of drywall you envision using and get a quote that volume. Green glue is ~$20/tube, with 2 tubes per 4x8 layer recommended. It can be used at 1 tube/sheet with reduced performance.

Do you have a Canadian source for Green Glue? Thanks for you help. Kevin

Kevin, sorry to butt in but I`ve had some good success dealing with wilrep.ltd. I got in touch with them through www.greenglue.ca. I contacted them in August and at that time a case of 12tubes was at $180, with shipping for three cases to Barrie at $85. Hope this helps. Andy

Thanks again Soundman2020: So..... If I could summarize what I think everyone has helped my understand: To hope to achieve a level of sound reduction that would result in my 50' neighbour and my 10' wife living in a properly sealed home hearing nothing but a low level of muffled sounds from the garage studio that my son and bandmates will be playing his drums and electric guitar in, I need to do the following: 1. Install 1 or 2 layers of 5/8" plywood or drywall inside the existing 16" OC 2 x 4's and against the existing tongue and groove outer wall. Layers must be caulked around the outside and if installed in multiple layers, separated by Green Glue. 2. Fill the remaining area with insulation - R12 is ok, but Ruxol or something similar would be an alternative that would slightly increase isolation levels. 3. Install vapor barrier over this insulation. 4. Install two layers of 5/8" drywall, separated by Green Glue and attached directly to the existing studs (no resilient channel). Silicone around all edges, separating each piece of drywall from the other and from the floor, ceiling or other sheets. 5. Since I can't build a new concrete slab, I have to build a wooden floor on top of the existing gravel base. Although its not ideal, I can attach the floor to the existing concrete footings without significant penalty. It would be ideal if i could separate the two, but if I can't, it won't significantly compromise the projects goals. 6. Construct the floor out of 24" OC 2" x 6". Fill the cavities with R12 (or Roxul) and cover with 2 layers of 5/8" plywood separated with Green Glue. 7. For the roof, duplicate the wall construction technic. If I want to achieve a much higher level of isolation - no sound transmitted outside the room -I need to go back to step 3 and do the following: 3. Do not install vapor barrier on the outside wall 4. Construct a separate, isolated 24" OC 2" x 4" room within the exiting walls. 5. Install vapor barrier on the outside of this new wall (facing the existing wall) 6. Fill the spaces between the new studs with R12, or Ruxol. 7. Install two layers of 5/8" drywall, separated by Green Glue and attached directly to the new studs. Silicon around all joints, separating each piece from the other and from the floor, and ceiling. 8. Build the wooden floor on top of the existing gravel base but do not attach it to the existing footings. 9. Construct the floor out of 24" OC 2 x 6s. Fill the cavities with R12 (or Roxul) and cover with 2 layers of 5/8" plywood separated by Green Glue. 10. For the ceiling, insulate between the existing rafters and install two layers of 5/8" drywall, separated by Green Glue and attached directly to the existing studs. Silicon around all joints, separating each piece from the other and from the walls. 11. Build a new ceiling, resting the new rafters on the new walls. 12. Insulate between the new rafters with R12 or Ruxol. 13. Install two layers of 5/8" drywall, separated by Green Glue and attached directly to the existing studs. Silicon around all joints, separating each piece from the other and from the walls. Door and HVAC construction questions to follow. lol. Thanks to all who have assisted. Hopefully I might actually get to start spending money this weekend. Kevin

Thanks snowdog99. I'll check them out. ps you probably have more snow in Barrie than we do here in the "north"

Hey Kevin, regarding your HVAC, don't forget that you probably won't need as much heating as you imagine, since your room will basically be an airtight bubble wrapped up in the middle of a large blanket! You'll be building very massive walls and ceiling, and putting an airspace in between that is mostly packed full of insulation. The purpose of all that is good acoustic isolation, but as a by-product you also get great thermal insulation. So once that room warms up, it will stay warm quite well for a long time. You might want to look at the type of air-conditioner called a "mini-split" system. Many models will do both cooling and heating, they are quite, relatively easy to install, low maintenance, and low operating cost. (Depending on the heat pump efficiency, a thousand watts of electrical power consumption can give you equivalent of three or four thousand watts worth of pure electrical heating). That might be the way to go. And since you are not actually using the room as a recording studio, you don't need to be too concerned about the little bit of noise that the unit makes. Especially with drums! (These units are very quiet, compared with your average window air-conditioner, but even that little but of noise is usually too much for a recording studio. However, that's not an issue at all in your case!) Drums are no competition at all for the whispering of an mini-split A/C unit. You can just mount the indoor unit on the wall somewhere. It might be an idea to look into those.

justadad wrote:

Thanks again Soundman2020: To hope to achieve a level of sound reduction that would result in my 50' neighbour and my 10' wife living in a properly sealed home hearing nothing but a low level of muffled sounds from the garage studio that my son and bandmates will be playing his drums and electric guitar in, I need to do the following: 1. Install 1 or 2 layers of 5/8" plywood or drywall inside the existing 16" OC 2 x 4's and against the existing tongue and groove outer wall. Layers must be caulked around the outside and if installed in multiple layers, separated by Green Glue.

I'd go for drywall between the studs, rather than plywood. Drywall is cheaper per unit of density, and is denser anyway. I'm not 100% on this next point: you might be able to skip the green-glue on this outside wall. I'd ask the real experts for their opinion on that one, but from what I understand, Green Glue works best between entire full panels of drywall, rather than on small strips between studs. It might not be cost effective to use GG in there. I think I'd rather go for three layers of drywall between the studs, carefully caulked, than two layers of drywall with green glue, but I'm only talking about THIS leaf of your wall here! The inner leaf will definitely be a good candidate for Green Glue!

2. Fill the remaining area with insulation - R12 is ok, but Ruxol or something similar would be an alternative that would slightly increase isolation levels.

As thick as you can make it.

3. Install vapor barrier over this insulation.

You should also check what your local building code requires here.

4. Install two layers of 5/8" drywall, separated by Green Glue and attached directly to the existing studs (no resilient channel). Silicone around all edges, separating each piece of drywall from the other and from the floor, ceiling or other sheets.

Hang on a sec! I think there is some confusion here! To clarify: If you are using only ONE set of studs (your option #1), with "leaves" on BOTH sides of those studs, then yes, you definitely do need resilient channel, and probably more layers of drywall too if you want good isolation. And with RC you need to be careful that your drywall screws do not go too far through the RC and touch the studs! That is very important. But if you are using TWO sets of studs (your option #2), with the first set being the existing outside frame (beefed up with drywall between the studs) and the second set being a new frame that you have to build a few inches away from the existing frame, then you DON'T need the resilient channel, and you can probably get by with just two or three layers of drywall on those studs with GG, plus plenty of insulation in the air gap between the existing (outer) stud frame and the new (inner) stud frame. So, if you go with one set of studs, you need RC. If you have two sets, then you can skip the RC. Basically, the RC is a substitute for the decoupling that the second frame gives you. It's not as good as total decoupling, but it helps a lot. However if you are already decoupled with separate studs, then there isn't much point in decoupling again! So you can skip the RC if you have two sets of studs, but you should not skip it if you only have one set.

5. Since I can't build a new concrete slab, I have to build a wooden floor on top of the existing gravel base. Although its not ideal, I can attach the floor to the existing concrete footings without significant penalty. It would be ideal if i could separate the two, but if I can't, it won't significantly compromise the projects goals.

That about covers it. But there may be ways to decouple the floor a bit somehow. I'm not sure. Wooden floors is not my strong point.

6. Construct the floor out of 24" OC 2" x 6". Fill the cavities with R12 (or Roxul) and cover with 2 layers of 5/8" plywood separated with Green Glue.

Won't you need some kind of moisture barrier in there, under the floor?

7. For the roof, duplicate the wall construction technic.

Yep!

If I want to achieve a much higher level of isolation - no sound transmitted outside the room -I need to go back to step 3 and do the following:

Well, you will always get some sound transmission, but it will be MUCH less with Option #2. (For example, if you fire a shotgun inside the room, you'll still here it outside muffled in both cases, but much more muffled in option #2. Total "soundproofing" is not really possible. Just like "waterproofing" is not possible for a watch: It is only "waterproof" to a certain extent, depending on how well it is built, but no watch is 100% waterproof at the bottom of the ocean. The same goes for "soundproof". It's a relative term, not an absolute.

3. Do not install vapor barrier on the outside wall 4. Construct a separate, isolated 24" OC 2" x 4" room within the exiting walls. 5. Install vapor barrier on the outside of this new wall (facing the existing wall)

I'm still not clear on the vapor barrier here. Check what your code says, and the experts here.

6. Fill the spaces between the new studs with R12, or Ruxol.

Yep. Lots of it. As thick as you can afford. Just be careful that you don't pack it in so tight that it becomes a flanking path for vibration between the two walls!

7. Install two layers of 5/8" drywall, separated by Green Glue and attached directly to the new studs. Silicon around all joints, separating each piece from the other and from the floor, and ceiling. 8. Build the wooden floor on top of the existing gravel base but do not attach it to the existing footings. 9. Construct the floor out of 24" OC 2 x 6s. Fill the cavities with R12 (or Roxul) and cover with 2 layers of 5/8" plywood separated by Green Glue.

Sounds good, I think, but once again check your local code, for what is allowable.

10. For the ceiling, insulate between the existing rafters and install two layers of 5/8" drywall, separated by Green Glue and attached directly to the existing studs. Silicon around all joints, separating each piece from the other and from the walls.

PAUSE! Hang on a sec here two: What is above those existing rafters? A roof? Another floor? If there is something up there, then you do NOT want to attach drywall with an air-gap here, as that would make a THIRD leaf, which is bad. You want only two leaves, not three. This is counter-intuitive, but in fact adding an extra leaf will make your isolation worse at low frequencies. so if you have an existing roof or floor up there, that is one "leaf". If you you add some drywall below that on the same rafters, that is another "leaf". And if you then add more rafters and more drywall below that, thenyou have a third leaf. You don't want three. You want only MASS-AIR-MASS, normally abbreviated "MAM" you do not want MAMAM or MAMAMAM. So think carefully about your construction, to make sure you are not putting in extra "leaves" of mass. So in this case, you would do it like the outer wall: attach strips of drywall cut to shape up between the existing rafters, butted up tight to whatever is above (roof deck or sub-floor), caulk the edges, and hold it in place with cleats. Do at least a couple of layers, maybe three (depending on what is above) but at least the same number as you do for your outer wall. THEN put the insulation in place, BELOW the beefed-up roof. (You can staple string, wire, or something similar across the joists, to keep the insulation in place.)

11. Build a new ceiling, resting the new rafters on the new walls.

Yup!

12. Insulate between the new rafters with R12 or Ruxol.

Yup! 13. Install two layers of 5/8" drywall, separated by Green Glue and attached directly to the existing studs. Silicon around all joints, separating each piece from the other and from the walls.[/quote] Yup! Except that I think you mean "new rafters" not "existing studs" in that paragraph! :) An important point about safety: make sure that your existing roof structure can take the weight of those extra layers! Drywall is heavy, and the structure might not have been designed to take a lot of extra load: Check with a structural engineer. You don't want a couple of thousand pounds of drywall hanging over your head unsafely, I'm sure. Say, if you do start this weekend, then how about posting some photos here, to show the progress of your build? I'd love to see how it is going, and who knows? we might be able to spot issues that you didn't notice, and save you time, money, or poor performance. - Stuart -

I've got some in-laws up in Thunder Bay, and they've been laughing at us down south in Barrie. It'll all even out in the end. :) Regarding the vapour barrier, I would look at Cram's basement build. There's another one- Brad Jacob I believe http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9756- and Rod himself chimes in on the location of the barrier. The barrier should only be put up in the location where warm air meets cold. So, the location of the barrier in your room would be on the inside part of the wall between the studs and the first layer of gypsum. SO, ideally, working from inside to out you would have: 5/8" drywall GG 5/8" drywall Vapour barrier insulation air gap etc.... The two builds I mention above are great resources for pics etc. Brad had put his vapour barrier against the outside wall and had to pull it and put it in the correct location. Hopefully, I am correct in what I say and not misleading you on this one. As far as the floor goes, I would say you will have to put some sort of moisture barrier up. Can't provide guidance tho.