Warehouse studio, Construction begins

Warehouse studio was a less than popular thread in the design forum for close to a year now. It was halted about a year ago due to a sudden falling out of business and funds. However almost a year later the project has reformed and is starting to take shape. The concept of this project is to build a studio with similar quality to the $20k studios but, and here’s the catch, to do it on a $3k budget! Hopefully this thread will be able to help some others who have limited funds and wish to build a professional quality studio for their budget. So without further ado, let the fund begin. First and foremost, the general overview. The Warehouse Studio will consist of 3 rooms, an entry/lounge, a control room, and a live room. These rooms will be completely separate disjoint rooms. The studio is being designed with room for expansion. Yes, that’s correct, against all recommendations it is possible to build a project that can be expanded upon in the future… In the future, there will be an add-on of a vocal booth, and two iso booths. The only thing that will be connecting each of these rooms is the concrete floor it is being built on; there will be NO floating floors due to budget and difficulty. However the concrete it is being built on is military grade, which although you might think there is no difference… there is… To put it simply, it seems to be about 3 times a strong as concrete, When attempting to blow nails into the concrete the only utility that would come close to penetrating it was a 22 caliber concrete nail gun (this can blow through 3 inches of steel without flinching), and then only about 1 out of 8 nails would actually penetrate the concrete, the rest either stopped dead, or more frequently, just bent… So hopefully this… super concrete… will help in the isolation of the rooms not vibrating too much in the lower frequencies. The Warehouse: The warehouse itself is 40ft wide x 100ft long, it house an angled ceiling that is 15ft high at the sides climbs to 20 feet at center. The warehouse is completely insulated with industrial R38; its construction was by the US Air force, which explains the concrete. The warehouse, obviously, is no longer in use by the air force; it instead is now part of an industrial park, which takes the place of the Air Force base that used to be located there. The Studio design: As explained the studio will consists of 3 rooms, the entrance/lounge dimensions in feet are (WxLxH)(8 x 22x8), the control room (11x15x8), and the Live Room (11x15x8). Yes not the largest rooms, but they will do quite nicely. Each will have a different sound resistance level to follow budget. The Entry: Will be the least soundproofed, consisting of just a single layer of 5/8 sheetrock on the outside of the framing, the framing cavities will be filled with standard R-13 house insulation. All seems will still be sealed properly with flexible caulk, and all normal soundproofing methods will be taken into consideration. The Control Room: Will have a bit more soundproofing. The control room walls will be built on the outside of the room framing, leaving the inner cavity for acoustic treatment. The outer wall will consist of 1 layer of 5/8 fire rated sheet rock screwed into the framing, each screw will then be topped with flexible caulk to prevent air from escaping. Over this will be a layer of 1/2 inch sheetrock which will be offset to seal the seams of the first layer (the seams are also filled with flexible caulk), this layer of sheetrock will be glued to the 5/8’s sheetrock using Fiberglass Reinforced Panel Adhesive (this adhesive has a slightly more flexible bond than standard liquid nails all purpose construction adhesive. The Inside cavities will be filled with 4 inch Roxul Rockwool, and then covered in fabric. Slats will be used where a reflective surface is desired, Ceilings will be entirely absorptive. The Live Room: As there will be instruments and mics in this room it will have the most soundproofing. Triple layer offset, a layer of 5/8 sheetrock screwed to the framing as described before, followed by a layer of 5/8 chipboard glued to the sheetrock, followed by another layer of 5/8 sheetrock glued to the chipboard. Each layer will be offset to seal the seams of the previous. All seems will be caulked with flexible caulk as described earlier. The Inside cavities will be filled with 4 inch Roxul Rockwool, and then covered in fabric. Slats will be used where a reflective surface is desired, Ceilings will be entirely absorptive. The Floors: The floors will be Laminate wood flooring on top of Laminate flooring underlayment (moisture barrier), the floor will still act as one layer with the concrete. There will be more explanation to come, as well as pictures EDIT: Tips for making a low budget stretch further! As stated before I am building this studio with a miniscule budget of $3k US dollars, (yes my spelling is bad, but my grammar is decent so pfft). I'd like to leave some practices that have saved me some money. Tip #1: Against all suggestions, Home Depot (in the U.S.) can be your friend if you take the time. first thing is first on ebay you can buy legitimate 20% off coupons for Home Depot for a very reasonable price, just search 20% off Home Depot. Apparently Home Depot gives these coupons out to their employees for hollidays and such. As long as you buy from a seller with good feedback, I guarrentee you'll have no problems. These coupons can save up to $600 per purchase and you'll probably pay about $20 for 10 of them. Tip #2 As stated Home Depot can be your best friend for a low budget. You can get all your framing wood from here and for a low price. I paid $1.89 per 2x4x8, plus the 20% off. You just have to be patient and go through each 2x4 by hand and make sure it's straight and knot free. Only 1 out of about 4 will be decent, so pick carefully, but with a little time and effort a lot of $ can be saved. More to come, have to go do some house work. Enjoy.

"topped with flexible caulk" I use sheetrock mud and cannot tell the difference. "a layer of 5/8 sheetrock screwed to the framing as described before, followed by a layer of 5/8 chipboard glued to the sheetrock, followed by another layer of 5/8 sheetrock glued to the chipboard." If I had this to do, and I did in mine, I would install the MDF onto the studs first. Then install the sheetrock. You may not get any support for gluing the pieces together unless you have a very good argument. And even then, a better argument will most likely supersede yours. "Ceilings will be entirely absorptive." What does this mean? I like it, but what does it mean?

thank you for the advice. However with much research and time spent in doing the project allow me to explain. The problem with taping and mudding is that it leaves a non-flexable seal, which sounds fine, except if there is any change in temperature, or if any pressure moved around on the walls, a non-flexable bond such as mudding has the chance of cracking, and if this happens the air tight seal that you worked so hard for will be ruined, and air will be allowed to escape. The concept is treat the room as if it was filled with water. If water could escape at any point, so could air, and if air can escape, then so can sound. as for the MDF being the first layer (attatched to the studding), and then having to layers of drywall over it, it will be slightly less effective than having Drywall, MDF, Drywall. Sound does not like transitioning between multiple densities, if you have MDF, Drywall, Drywall, the sound only has to transition between the MDF and Drywall. IF you layer it as Drywall, MDF, Drywall the Sound must transition first between the drywall to MDF, and then again between MDF and the Drywall. as for the ceiling. All I mean by it being absorptive is that the ceiling will be designed the same as the walls, on the inside it will have the 4 inch of rockwool, followed by cloth, allowing no reflections of the ceiling. again i have not gotten the pictures up yet, more to come.

However the concrete it is being built on is military grade, which although you might think there is no difference… there is… To put it simply, it seems to be about 3 times a strong as concrete, When attempting to blow nails into the concrete the only utility that would come close to penetrating it was a 22 caliber concrete nail gun (this can blow through 3 inches of steel without flinching), and then only about 1 out of 8 nails would actually penetrate the concrete, the rest either stopped dead, or more frequently, just bent… So hopefully this… super concrete… will help in the isolation of the rooms not vibrating too much in the lower frequencies.

Hmmmm.... That's interesting, but I'm not sure that "strength" is of any use to the acoustic properties of the concrete. After listening to the experts on this forum and reading their books and other books on acoustics, I thought that mass was the issue, not strength. As far as I can see, the concrete slab is not going to be subject to much in the way of bending and twisting forces due to the sound waves that strike it! Mass is mass, regardless of the strength, and if this place was a hanger before, then you have PLENTY of mass there. Maybe I'm wrong here, but as far as I can figure out from reading Rod's book, the exact same mass of drywall, bricks, lead sheeting, or even dry sand would have practically the same acoustic isolation properties as your military grade concrete. Not a big issue, of course. More curiosity than anything else. And if you already have it in place, then great! At least it wont crack in an earthquake! But I'm just not sure that I see why tougher concrete would have better isolation properties than the same mass of weaker concrete. I guess that you are going to properly isolate your rooms by cutting that slab at the room boundaries?

each screw will then be topped with flexible caulk to prevent air from escaping. Over this will be a layer of 1/2 inch sheetrock which will be offset to seal the seams of the first layer (the seams are also filled with flexible caulk), this layer of sheetrock will be glued to the 5/8’s sheetrock using Fiberglass Reinforced Panel Adhesive (this adhesive has a slightly more flexible bond than standard liquid nails all purpose construction adhesive.

Why not just use Green Glue between the layers? That would take care of both your "caulked screws" and "glued panels" at once, and would greatly increase the isolation properties of your wall. Especially seeing that gluing your sheetrock layers together is a bad idea, according to all of the experts. How are you planning to make sure that the flexible caulk over the screw heads doesn't leave beads that would prevent the next layer from lying perfectly flat on top of it? If that happened, you would have air gaps in your wall. Can you sand that "Fiberglass Reinforced Panel Adhesive" to get a flat surface? I'm also curious as to why you are planning to use a thinner layer of sheetrock over a thicker layer, when this doesn't really gain you anything: Yeah, I've also read about the supposed benefits of using layers of different thickness, refraction at the interfaces of dissimilar materials, etc. in other web sites and chat rooms. But once again, after seeing what the real experts here have to say about it, the arguments in favor of that just don't hold water. At best, it only makes a very slight difference. At worst, it means that you have LESS isolation than you could have had, since you have less mass in your wall than using two layers of 5/8. FWIW.

Soundman2020 wrote:

Hmmmm.... That's interesting, but I'm not sure that "strength" is of any use to the acoustic properties of the concrete. I guess that you are going to properly isolate your rooms by cutting that slab at the room boundaries?

A high psi concrete will have a higher density then concrete of lower psi. So it does have something to do with this :) Taking into consideration that this hanger is for aircraft, he won't be cutting the slab anytime soon. It could be 12 inches, more, and the rebar, man oh man, so big and so much! Btw, concrete gets harder and harder as the years pass :) edit: "angled ceiling that is 15ft high at the sides climbs to 20 feet" My bad, Air Force put me right on aircraft. Still, a warehouse built by an American military will most likely still be as thick and present the same issues as stated.

Just out of curiosity, why only a 500 square foot studio when you have 4000 square feet available?

Here's the pictures as promised. For some reason the Comments section is not working for each picture, so... Picture 1: A picture looking down the 2 foot gap between the Entry Room (left) and Control Room (right). We have begun putting up standard R-13 insulation on the outer walls of these room, the insulation is glued to the drywall rather than wasting wood by building an extra external frame. this way there is more insulation coverage and less cost. Picture 2: A look at the Framing of the Control Room door. Beyond that you can see the Entry Room, as well as the 2 foot gap between the Control Room and Entry Room... excessive? not at all, if you have 100 feet by 40 feet of building area, why not go overboard, as long as the cost doesn't change, I'm happy, and a little extra space can mean a lot of extra isolation. Picture 3: An look from a far of the currently 2 standing walls of the Control Room. Each wall is assembled on the floor, wallboard is attachted, and then is stood into place. The walls are then squared and leveled before being nailed to each other. The final step is attempting to nail the framing into the concrete. and sealing the wallboard and framing to the floor using flexible caulk. Picture 4: An inside look of the Entry room, facing the Control room door. Picture 5: Using the forklift to raise the 5/8, million pound, sheetrock onto the Entry Room ceiling. This picture also contains a body shot of my lifesaver partner in crime and carpenter, Steve. Sorry girls, he's married... :) Picture 6: Another view of the forklift raising the sheetrock onto the roof, as well as the ghost driver... we named him Pete... As always, more to come :) ps... if anyone knows how to get the comments to work on the pictures, let me know :) Will be adding an EDIT to the first post shortly of tips for how to make a low budget stretch further when building an audio studio.

Just to answer a few questions. The reason I am building such a small studio when such a large space is available is as described, budget. Just $3k U.S. for a budget, so space is limited solely by costs. The studio is being designed to be expandable should that be desired. The caulking will not leave air gaps, nor will it need to be sanded. Any uneven caulking jobs will be miniscule, maybe a matter of millimeters. Should there be an area where a small gap between pannels would occur, it will be filled when spreading the Fibreglass Reinforced Pannel Addhesive. The glue is applied by trowel, and will cover any minute defects.

Especially seeing that gluing your sheetrock layers together is a bad idea, according to all of the experts.

I'm not sure where you've read that, and quite honestly would love to see it. According to every expert I've had the chance to talk to glueing the sheetrock together is the ONLY option. Screwing through two layers of drywall would greatly reduce sound isolution, and allow air gaps. As far as I know, you would want to have as few screws penetrating any Mass Layers as possible. Green glue would definantly work, but again this is a very budget concious construction, and the benefits to cost are heavily outweighed. Doing a proper caulking job with flexable caulk can yeild similar results to green glue. Green glue is essientially a slightly more advanced flexable addhesive caulk, similar results can be obtained by similar practices with flexable caulk.[/quote]

Hey Capin', about a year and a half ago you didn't know the difference between drywall and gypsum board. I'm not bustin' yer chops on that, everyone learns at their own pace. For me, when someone makes a statement that is contrary to what I know or have found, I look for support of that statement. Where would I look to see some on gluing the sheetrock and comparisons with gg and caulk, of any kind ;)

I'm not sure where you've read that, and quite honestly would love to see it. According to every expert I've had the chance to talk to glueing the sheetrock together is the ONLY option.

I guess you were not talking to the right experts then! :) Here are some links that you might find interesting: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=8815 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9245 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=9777 http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=6671 It took me maybe 2 minutes to find those threads using the "search" feature here.. There are probably many more that you could find on the same topic, by refining the search parameters and using different keywords. But all the key information about why gluing your layers together is a BAD idea, and why Green Glue is a GOOD idea, is right there in those threads, written personally by some REAL experts who really do know what they are talking about, having built many real studios in the real world, and who have been commended by folks such as Steven Spielberg for having done a great job of building fantastic acoustic spaces... Those are the kinds of experts I'd listen to. - Stuart -

Sorry for the delayed reply, I've been quite busy with my IT work. I appreciate the links, they are indeed interesting, just for the record the "not-real" experts that I got my sources from were also off of here, as well as the SAE audio database. Perhaps however, these methods are outdated since the release of green glue which only just came out in 2004. just one example off the SAE website

In the drawing above I've shown a single gypsum (pale blue) layer but adding to the layer can dramatically increase the transmission loss. The options are Adding another layer of gypsum which is glued (not nailed) to the first sheet and should be a different thickness than the first sheet. i.e. 16mm (5/8") and 12mm (1/2") sandwiching a layer of fibreboard between the two sheets. This really works well, a double wall with a triple layer as described above on a floating floor will create a room that will allow you to set up a band and not hear it outside the room! Just remember that all the sound is now trapped inside the room and heavy acoustic treatment is required to control it all.

However reading over some of the information on green glue more carefully, I have decided to use it for the Live Room. Due to its cost however, this is the only room I will be able to use it for. It costs close to the same as 2 additional 5/8 layers of drywall. That's a hefty price for a low $3k budget. thank you for all of your help. and I was apparently wrong about the silicone caulk have similar properties to green glue, just goes to show that even seemingly reputable forums are usually not... that information was not off this forum. On a high note, at least my correcter made the same mistake :)

xSpace writes: You can use just about any high quality silicone/polyurethane caulking to achieve the same type of result. You may consider a mastic inbetween the layers of rock and construction glue and screws to attach the first and following layer. Minimize vibration is what you want to achieve.

just for the record the "not-real" experts that I got my sources from were also off of here,

This has me intrigued. could you please give links to these experts' posts on here on JLS? Thanks. Andre

post removed. Let the record show that the defendant made the "drinky drinky" motion.

CaptainTaco wrote:

"On a high note, at least my correcter made the same mistake :)

xSpace writes: You can use just about any high quality silicone/polyurethane caulking to achieve the same type of result. You may consider a mastic inbetween the layers of rock and construction glue and screws to attach the first and following layer. Minimize vibration is what you want to achieve.

It was not a correction from where I was at. It was for you to take responsibility for whatever it was you where about to do. If you had support and trusted that, then all things being equal, you do that. That thread, and that statement cannot be taken as an individual paragraph. It has many sides to it that are revealed in the unfortunate start to the resolved conclusion.

To set the record straight, I would prefer not to have this thread trend off into an argument match as many posts and threads tend to. I'm not going to provide the threads that gave me incorrect information as it serves no use to me nor other readers, advice has been given, and I thank you for that advice as it will help me further my project for the better. This is the point of this thread, to help both me and others further their projects for the better. All I ask is that when a correction of methods is to occur that it be done in a kind way. That is what this forum is for, to help others along their way, not to criticize those who have gotten it wrong, or try to circle the inaccuracies of a previous post or thread with a red pen. So I ask kindly, the concept of " if you don't have anything to say, don't say anything at all" please, if you are going to make a correction to a method you feel inaccurate, either present your information in a polite and welcoming fashion, or please just refrain from posting on this thread, we're all adults here, I hope. If you scare people away from presenting their ideas and current understanding, they will never be able to make the proper corrections to those understandings, and you will forever have a greater level of ignorance on this forum, and in this field. So please, think before you react. Thank you. I hope that the next post can be on thoughts of progress and not recession or an overly accentuated point. Thank you all for your help and consideration :) . -Rob-

I see, so I get pissed on for a few days and no one thinks anything of that. I thought I was trying to help, but you do not seem to require whatever it is I have. Good luck boss.

A high psi concrete will have a higher density then concrete of lower psi. So it does have something to do with this

True, but I was thinking more of mass than density. Correct me if I'm wrong, but mass is mass. Density just means that you have the same amount of mass in a smaller space. But if you have, for example, 50 tons of concrete in your floor, I'm not sure I understand why it would be more useful (acoustically) if that was 50 tons of "high density" concrete or just 50 tons of plain old ordinary lower density concrete. 50 tons is 50 tons, either way. I thought it was just the mass that matters, or is it the density too?

Taking into consideration that this hanger is for aircraft, he won't be cutting the slab anytime soon. It could be 12 inches, more, and the rebar, man oh man, so big and so much!

Good point! Yeah, I guess you wouldn't want to try cutting that!

A high psi concrete will have a higher density then concrete of lower psi. So it does have something to do with this

True, but I was thinking more of mass than density. Correct me if I'm wrong, but mass is mass. Density just means that you have the same amount of mass in a smaller space. But if you have, for example, 50 tons of concrete in your floor, I'm not sure I understand why it would be more useful (acoustically) if that was 50 tons of "high density" concrete or just 50 tons of plain old ordinary lower density concrete. 50 tons is 50 tons, either way. I thought it was just the mass that matters, or is it the density too?

Taking into consideration that this hanger is for aircraft, he won't be cutting the slab anytime soon. It could be 12 inches, more, and the rebar, man oh man, so big and so much!

Good point! Yeah, I guess you wouldn't want to try cutting that!

I might be missing some detail in the posts along the way... but I have to ask... where are the rim joists around the ceiling joists? Seems like you have about 10" of air gap along two sides of your ceiling. Common construction practice is to have rim joists on the ends of the joists to in effect create a "box" which can be caulked with acoustic sealant. Why do you have pink insulation 'glued???" to the drywall in one of your pics? Are you planning to open a door from one room and walk into an 'air space', then open the door to another room? Seems odd to me. What are you doing about your floors? Seems like you might have some flanking going on if you don't build up the floor in each room. Just my $0.02 Good luck.