Room within a room within a room

I'll be building my studio in my garage and within my studio will be the voice booth...hence room within a room within a room. I should tell you that my studio and particularly the voice booth, will be for voice-over work. Now for the details... -Garage dimensions are 23'Dx20'Wx9'H -Concrete slab floor in good condition (slight slope that will be corrected when laying floor....love my shims!) -There is only attic above garage and all wall surfaces are finished drywall (I don't believe there to be any insulation in walls...only ceiling) -The space I have set aside for the studio is an area in the back corner measuring 8'11"x15' -There will be no windows. I've been doing a ton of reading over the past several months and this is what I've come up with... -Wall construction - 5/8" layer drywall plus 1/2" drywall on 24" OC 2x4 studs --- Roxul insulation --- 5/8" plus 1/2" drywall. -All 4 inside wall surfaces that face the Voice booth will NOT have drywall but instead some fabric just to hold in the insulation. -The same will apply for the outside surface on the voice booth (ceiling too)...just fabric (I figured since the two sets of walls will range from about 3" to 12" apart, it would be better to leave the drywall off thereby increasing my isolation) -Inside surface of voice booth (ceilling too) to have 5/8" plus 1/2" drywall plus some foam (possibly Auralex brand) -I'll build one entire ceiling over the whole studio at a standard 8' and with the section over the voice booth to also have double drywall on outside and only fabric cover on inside...just like the walls in this area. -Voice booth ceiling will be the inverse...double drywall inside and fabric only on outer surface (this just continues the MASS-AIR-MASS) So you can see that this option only uses MASS-AIR-MASS around the voice booth. I figured that the control room was more in need of sound control rather than isolation. You should also know that I live in a small town in the Niagara region of Ontario, Canada. There is no traffic on my street with the exception of the occasional ATV or Harley. But even then, I figured the voice booth within the studio within the garage should be quite sufficient. Once again, I'm only doing voice work so I won't be generating all that much noise. I'm really just new to this and trying to avoid overkill so I guess my questions are... 1. What are your thoughts on my soundproofing? Am I way off or do you think this will suffice? 2. My HVAC guy is going to extend my ductwork from my house to give the studio and voice booth heat and AC with cold air return...is this wise or should I look at other methods. FYI, he's charging me $600 for the job. 3. With my CPU located in the control room, I would like a way of bringing some of the controls inside the booth (levels, record start/end). Is this a pipe dream or does anyone have a thought on this one. That's about it. I'm very open to any suggestions you may have regarding changes to my design (I thought of 45 degree angled corners in the control room) so please feel free to critique and suggest. Thanks to all

jinglesmountjoy wrote:

-Concrete slab floor in good condition (slight slope that will be corrected when laying floor)

Good luck with that. You can forget about everything else unless this is done correctly... Seems like a lot of overkill for just voiceovers, considering that you said external noise was not a big concern. Save your money on the build so you have some left for decent gear!

studio_drums wrote:

...considering that you said external noise was not a big concern.

No...it's the exact opposite. I want to keep all external noise out but there's not a lot of it (small town of 6000). No highway, no traffic. The street has maybe one car drive by every 10-15min on average and occasionally (once every week or two), a Harley or (every month or two) an ATV. I guess lawnmowers and snowblowers would be the most common "loud" noises. But I definitely want to keep all sound out. The part I'm not concerned with is the amount of noise I'll be making. My neighbours have nothing to worry about. Regarding the floor...I didn't think it would be much of a big deal. Level it with shims under the floor joists. Pack insulation between the joists and use a couple of layers of subfloor followed by a good quality foam underlay and finally some carpet. Like I said i never really thought about it......how does that sound? :? Thanks

I'm not clear on your mass/air/mass. My understanding is you have mass, then you have an air space(insulation is part of the air) and then you have mass. What makes this work is that the air is sealed.

xSpace wrote:

I'm not clear on your mass/air/mass. My understanding is you have mass, then you have an air space(insulation is part of the air) and then you have mass. What makes this work is that the air is sealed.

Sorry, I'm rather new to this and although I understand most of the aspects, I still trying to pick up on all the lingo and how to use it. I did another sketch to better illustrate what I meant when talking about MASS-AIR-MASS. I was trying to say that by not putting drywall on the surfaces marked by the blue arrows in my sketch, I effectively "widen" my AIRspace as it now becomes the insulation plus the space between the walls followed by the insulation in adjacent wall. I was just making sure to point this out in case anyone looking at the picture thought I might be puting drywall on those surfaces creating a triple leaf.

To me, it still looks like your vocal booth is a "room within a room within another room". Meaning that you have mass - air - mass - air - mass. Meaning that you have three leaves, not two. I'm not clear why you would want to do that, as it is probably going to worsen your isolation, not improve it, and it wastes a lot of space in your vocal booth. I'd suggest something more like this:

I'm also not sure why you specify two different thicknesses of drywall: 5/8 and also 1/2. Despite what you might have read elsewhere, from what I've learned on this site using different sized layers really isn't going to do very much for you at all. Just go with two layers of 5/8 drywall, with Green Glue in between the layers.

Your right that it does look like what you said it looked like. I think what saves this design is that the air space between the existing wall and the purposed walls is not sealed. Seems like he is trying to decouple, to short circuit existing building vibration. Myself, I would use the existing walls in my design. Space is premium and no one knows that like the person that just finished his/her build ;)

I think what saves this design is that the air space between the existing wall and the purposed walls is not sealed.

Ahhh! OK, I see what you mean about it not being sealed. That makes sense. But I'm guessing that at the bottom of the page is another wall, that closes off the "open" side of the third room, completing the third leaf. I wonder if the fact that there is just a small gap around two sides, and a much larger gap around the other two, makes a difference acoustically to that third leaf? But you sure are right about it being a waste of space, and I don't see that he will be gaining much (if anything) in terms of isolation with that design.

Soundman2020 wrote:

Ahhh! OK, I see what you mean about it not being sealed. That makes sense. But I'm guessing that at the bottom of the page is another wall, that closes off the "open" side of the third room, completing the third leaf. I wonder if the fact that there is just a small gap around two sides, and a much larger gap around the other two, makes a difference acoustically to that third leaf?

It is great that you see it, but some of us do not have as good eyes as you do. :cry: JinglesMountJoy: Would post an updated drawing please showing this off page wall? Andre

Soundman2020 wrote:

Ahhh! OK, I see what you mean about it not being sealed. That makes sense. But I'm guessing that at the bottom of the page is another wall, that closes off the "open" side of the third room, completing the third leaf... ...But you sure are right about it being a waste of space, and I don't see that he will be gaining much (if anything) in terms of isolation with that design.

Your right about the fourth "mystery" wall. Sorry, I didn't put in the sketch. I'll tell you my reasoning for this design... I designed something that I would think to have excellent isolation as it's own structure without being in the garage. That way, with it actually in a garage, it could only improve it, even if marginally. I guess what I'm saying is the garage is just a location to build the studio and my intention was not to design it to utilize the garage's isolation qualities but to design it regardless of the garage's isolation qualities. :). I've attached several different sketches of what I had planned. These give some greater detail and I think better illustrate the design. When you say "wasting space", do you mean I may be able to get away with a much simpler design? That'd be great if I could. Are you thinking something more like... 1) Main studio wall with 5/8 x2 on each side, GG between the sheets and Roxul as insulation 2) A wall of the same construct running down the centre to divide voice booth from CR. 3) Line walls/ceiling of voice booth with appropriate treatments (acoustical foam, etc) This is what I was originally thinking but after reading over several forums over the last couple of months, I started to get the feeling that it was too basic and that if I wanted great isolation I needed to look at a "room within a room" design. Anyhow, here are the pics I mentioned. Please continue to post your thoughts. I will part with this question for you all... ...I've been doing some reading that suggests Green Glue is all marketing and that silicon caulking will get you close to the same results if not better...any thoughts on this?? Thanks again for your replies! :D

AVare wrote:

It is great that you see it, but some of us do not have as good eyes as you do. :cry: JinglesMountJoy: Would post an updated drawing please showing this off page wall? Andre

I don't have a sketchup showing it. It's off the bottom of the screen and it would be the wall which has the actual garage door on it. Just take the sketches I just posted and put that room inside of a garage and, voila, you have my plan.

why is it that every time I open up this thread, I get scrollbars around my browser?

:P Ro

Ro wrote:

why is it that every time I open up this thread, I get scrollbars around my browser?

I'm sorry man...I know the rules but didn't clue in until you posted. I'm on a widescreen monitor and didn't have to scroll when I previewed the post. I'm rather new to Sketchup and couldn't for the life of me, find the option to size it down before exporting like you can in Smart Draw.

jinglesmountjoy wrote:

Ro wrote:

why is it that every time I open up this thread, I get scrollbars around my browser?

I'm sorry man...I know the rules but didn't clue in until you posted. I'm on a widescreen monitor and didn't have to scroll when I previewed the post. I'm rather new to Sketchup and couldn't for the life of me, find the option to size it down before exporting like you can in Smart Draw.

File>Export>2D Graphic>(select JPG for type if not default)>Options button The rest is then obvious. Andre

I can't even believe I missed that button... thanks so much! :thu:

Hello jinglesmountjoy. Well, I came here looking for a few threads to link you to at HR...but low and behold..you already posted here as well. Ok, since you are already here, I have a few suggestions for you. After reading the circumstances of your environmental noise potential, and considering the size of this booth, my first suggestion is this. FORGET a room within a room. Your floor is going to be integeral unless you were going to build a floating floor or cut the slab to decouple it from the existing slab(which requires a new footing as well :shock: ) and build your walls on that....but lest you read the thread about floating floors......I'd suggest forget it. Instead, I'd beef up your outer leaf(I don't see any info on what it is)by adding mass in the stud cavitys, and using Isomax decouplers and hat channel with 2 layers of drywall, or like I said at HR, resiliant channel. Considering the size, the expense of this system would be minimal compared to a room within a room and you would save valuable space. Heres what I mean by Isomax. If you wanted to isolate the floor, consider another product such as a roll out fiberglass product with decoupling pucks embedded. For this size room it might be ideal, and not as expensive as building a floating floor. Anyway, thats my opinions. And like I said at HR, don't forget the "permit" stuff either. :D

Your right about the fourth "mystery" wall. Sorry, I didn't put in the sketch. I'll tell you my reasoning for this design... I designed something that I would think to have excellent isolation as it's own structure without being in the garage. That way, with it actually in a garage, it could only improve it, even if marginally.

Well, from what I've read here, including a few after-the-fact "sob stories", I think that you not only might NOT improve it, even slightly, but rather that your third leaf might make things worse. I keep saying this: I'm no expert on acoustics, but I've learned from the experts here that, when it comes to acoustics, what seems logical and intuitive is probably actually wrong, and what doesn't make much sense at first glance is actually the best idea. The problem with a three-leaf design (from what I've read) is that you might well be setting up resonant spaces that somehow couple to other spaces, even though you can't see how that would happen at first glance. I recall reading a thread here about one person who had good isolation in his studio, until he decided to make it "better" by installing laminate floor over a foam underlay, right on top of his existing floor. His additional "isolation" actually made things far worse, since he now hears the clanking of machinery coming in from an adjacent office, which he never heard before his improvement. In short, even though a third leaf looks good in theory, in practice it might not be at all what you expected. Unless you are planning to put many, many layers of drywall, all joined by Green Glue and absolutely hermetically sealed, all around your other two leaves, I'm still not convinced that you will get the effect you are expecting. The extra "air - mass" layer around your inner two rooms is going to play acoustic tricks on you, I think. Once again, I'm just repeating what I've learned so far. Maybe the real acoustic boffins can chime in here and correct me, but from everything I've read here and in Rod's book, a third leaf is a bad idea, and your outside garage wall looks a lot like a third leaf to me.

I found what I was looking for, and it comes from a solid source, I think: A forum member who works for the manufacturers of Green Glue. In this case, he is commenting on something that isn't really related to his product: "The simplest and most relevant downside of a triple leaf system is that for a given amount of weight and space, you wind up with a higher frequency of MSM. And that means that whatever decoupling efforts you have will start to work for you at a HIGHER frequency, which is bad. The next downside is the potential for chaotic low-freq behavior (resonance behavior) as you introduce multiple systems. In some instances - such as the famous double stud system shown in quadruple, triple, and double leaves - this can be catastrophic. " Comes from here: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... c&start=15 So if I understand that right, your extra leaf is going to mean that your isolation will be less effective in the lower frequencies (where it matters most), and that the entire low-frequency behavior of your three-leaf system might be "chaotic" at best, and "catastrophic" at worst. I don't know about you, but when I see acoustic experts using words like "less effective" and "chaotic" and "catastrophic" to talk about something I'm planning to build, I tend to re-think my plans! :) - Stuart -

cadesignr wrote:

...Instead, I'd beef up your outer leaf(I don't see any info on what it is)by adding mass in the stud cavitys,

I had planned on two layers of 5/8 with GG between the sheets. Also, what do you mean by, "adding mass in the wall cavities"? Insulation???

cadesignr wrote:

If you wanted to isolate the floor, consider another product such as a roll out fiberglass product with decoupling pucks embedded.

One minor issue I wanted to correct in framing in a raised floor with 2x6 joists was a slight slope in the concrete floor. The floor itself is very flat and in great condition... there's just a slight slope in one direction. I would have done this by simply using shims under the joists. Bye the way, I really like the resilient clip method and am hoping to use it. Thanks. Maybe putting the joists up on hockey pucks would help. What to put in the floor joists was something I haven't given much thought to other than Roxul and perhaps over top of the Roxul, a piece of OC 703 wrapped in fabric (I have no basis for that plan, it just seemed like it might suffice).

Soundman2020 wrote:

I don't know about you, but when I see acoustic experts using words like "less effective" and "chaotic" and "catastrophic" to talk about something I'm planning to build, I tend to re-think my plans!

I agree...and in fact I had thought of not putting drywall on the exterior walls of the studio that are tight up to the garage walls and also ripping off the drywall from the same garage walls and stuffing insulation in that part of the garage wall. This would have eliminated the third leaf but would have created a lot more extra work. I think I'll go with the resilient method and drop the room in room method to save space. Maybe double 5/8 with GG -> Roxul -> resilient clips/hat channel and double 5/8 with GG. Also, I had a suggestion to perhaps shrink the voice booth and turn it into the "mechanical" room for the CPU or any other noisy equip (probably just the CPU and incoming HVAC). Then treat the control room and record in there. The problem with that (I think) would be the lack of a truly flat vocal track which, from what I understand is an integral part of professional voice-overs. Unless, of course, I use treatments to make it a "dead" room which, from what I understand, is not good for production. I'm soooo confused :?

You need to research why your concrete floor is sloped, and if it is still sloping! There's always the possibility it could slope further, and that wouldn't be good. How about some pictures of your space?

... framing in a raised floor with 2x6 joists ... Maybe putting the joists up on hockey pucks would help. What to put in the floor joists was something I haven't given much thought to other than Roxul and perhaps over top of the Roxul, a piece of OC 703 wrapped in fabric (I have no basis for that plan, it just seemed like it might suffice).

To me, that sounds like you are going to float your floor! Not a good idea. The way I understand it, you are creating a resonant cavity under your floor, and unless you have a REALLY massive floor on top of those joists (several inches of concrete), then the resonant frequency is likely to be way up in the lower audible range, exactly where you don't want it.

Soundman2020 wrote:

To me, that sounds like you are going to float your floor! Not a good idea. The way I understand it, you are creating a resonant cavity under your floor, and unless you have a REALLY massive floor on top of those joists (several inches of concrete), then the resonant frequency is likely to be way up in the lower audible range, exactly where you don't want it.

Like I said, the floor doesn't slope immensely and I could probably live with it and who knows, I may not even notice it. Regarding pictures, the area still has a few things piled up there so until I move them, you won't get an accurate idea...what the hell, maybe I'll go take a pic tomorrow. I am still planning but want to get rolling in about 4wks time.