Ahh HA! OK, got it!
And thanks for the tip on the thickness of absorption at my first reflection points. Since I'm planning "inside out" walls, I can easily get 4 inches depth between the studs, and could probably get 6 by "building out" some kind of frame a couple more inches. Would that be good enough?
Also, I've decided to leave the space between the soffits / speakers as dead as possible, as I'm going to need that area to get decent RT60 times, and I've learned that it should improve my stereo image a bit too.
Qiestion: Since that space will be angled to match the soffit angle, I can get about 4 inches depth at the bottom (desktop level) and at least 10 inches at the top (against the ceiling). Should I fill that entire space with rock wool? Or should I just put a 4 inch layer leaning forwards, against the soffits, leaving a triangular wedge of air space behind the insulation? I'm inclined to stuff it totally full of rock wool, with a cloth front on it, to make it as broad band as possible.
- Stuart -
Stuart's Insanity Studio: Design phase
Originally posted at johnlsayers.com, topic 11122.
Stuart Wrote:
Dude - That's exactly what my guys did. All the detail of the front wall assembly (and everything else) is on my thread. :wink: Regards, Lou. 8)I'm inclined to stuff it totally full of rock wool, with a cloth front on it, to make it as broad band as possible.
Hi Stuart,
Her is the link to my thread; http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11392
I have not been loading in any new designs or anything as of late. I felt the need to peruse the site a lot more and get to know some people. A lot of my questions have been enlightened upon if not answered. I am almost ready to put a solid layout design together. Best use of space has been the issue. Also, how best to account for my ceiling. Your ideas and input would be most welcome, as would anyone one else who wants to contribute.
LBIR, who woulda thunk that could be so important! :ahh: Thanks Avare!
W
Thought I would share this with you. I was at a holiday party at a friends studio. Their console tech, who hangs out here occasionally, told me about an underlayment made specifically for concrete slabs.
Evidently, it has small protrusions on the bottom resembling "feet". This allows for ventilation and replaces a vapor barrier. In talking with him further, it seems you can glue T&G ply to this and lay hardwood just as you normally would.
Needless to say, I was like wow! As this is certainly a way better solution that framing out a floor, laying in a vapor barrier and using sand or rockwool or whatever. He said it was available at the Home Depot, a US hope products chain.
I will check this out but wanted to let you know as you are building on a slab also. It would really be nice to save 4 or 5 inches in floor to ceiling height!
Don't know any specific product name, but will look into it between now and end of month. Job has me busier than a one arm paper hanger until the holiday. :thu:
W
It might be this stuff;
http://www.homedepot.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?storeId=10051&langId=-1&catalogId=10053&productId=100388255&N=10000003+90401+503003
Any thoughts on something like this? Is has 5/8" OSB right on it. So, you could nail into it.
W
An update on my crazy "soffit angle" saga: I finally got to trying out Lou's blind listening test, and the truth is.... (drum roll, please!...) Yes, I actually CAN hear a difference at around 15 degrees tilt. Very subtle, but it is there. Like a very slight EQ shift, fractionally "brighter". It might well be due to reflections or comb filtering coming off furniture, or other things in the room, since I just did this in my living room. It might be due to not being on-axis to the speakers any more. Or it might might have been from too much of the best part of Lou's advice ("sip favourite beverage")! But there is something going on there in changing the angle. My bet, as always, is that Andre is right about the pinnae. I'll try to repeat that in a more controlled environment than my living room. Anyway, that was just a report back that I wanted to give anyone who might still be interested in the Soffit Saga. - Stuart -Now get this, my friend - go sit in your den and occupy your favourite chair. Next, ask your partner to prepare your favourite CD, then go grab a beer and sit back in said comfy chair. Then place a blindfold over your face and ask your partner to support your hi-fi speakers on as many books (or similar) as are needed so that the tweeters 'line of sight' exactly matches the vertical position of your ears. Finally, sip favourite beverage (with blindfold on) and at any given point ask partner to place a glossy magazine under the back edge of the speakers (monitors) to tilt them forward. Said person cannot walk in front of monitoring to help you out! :horse: This must be done whilst the music is playing preferably loud enough 'to get into' and, as smoothly/soundlessly as possible............................................Can you tell when the monitors got moved by 10 degrees?
That's interesting Stuart. I think I can compare your results to the set of mons I have that are on top of my near-fields. As my ears are actually at the lower part of the woofer, I hear subtle changes as I stand up. I would have to try the angle change, but just reading about the Lou test and your result really makes a lot of sense. Thanks man.
W
Greetings Stuart:
Thank You for all your involvement with your great questions and answers on this site. You have been a big help in my learning more about the many phases of designing and redesigning and even building these great sudios.
I was wondering what you have found and or plan for your build, with the inside - out wall construction?
Are you going to build the walls in sections and bolt / nail the section together where space to get to the back side of the inner wall is not readly accessable????
Thanks Again,
Stay Gold,
Ken Hamilton
Hi Ken,
To be honest, I'm still trying to figure out the construction sequence, but the basic idea is to build the walls lying down, then lift them into place. The issue with that, of course, is the weight: Those things are going to be heavy! The plan right now is to first do the two walls that face the existing brick walls, and once they are upright, brace them in place with temporary braces. Then I'll do the side walls, to which I have free access, as normal framing, then add the drywall. That way I think I'll be able to get into the joints to caulk them well. The toughest one is going to be the LR corner next to the garage door frame. I haven't figured that one out yet.
But the part that I'm most concerned about, is the ceilings: They will also be "inside out", with the sheetrock on top of the joists, instead of underneath. That, of course, brings up the minor problem of how do I get into that tiny space between the ceiling and the roof, to hammer/screw the drywall in place! I have a horrible feeling that I'm going to have to take of the roof to get access to that, then put the roof back on again.... Not fun, but it seems to be the only way. One other idea I'm playing with is to drill up through the joists and use toggle bolts to attach the drywall, but I'm not too keen on that either, as I think it will compromise the isolation. A third (silly?) idea is to build the ceiling lying down on the floor BEFORE I build the walls, then lift it into place and support it there temporarily while I build the walls underneath it. But that would make it hard to build the north and south walls lying down and lift them into place... There would not be enough space to do that, I think.
So basically the sequence is still not defined 100%. Work in progress! If you have any suggestions, I'd love to hear them!
- Stuart -
Greetings Stuart,
For your ceiling inside- out construction:
Thinking out loud,
Maybe build the ceiling in 2 foot wide or maybe 4 foot wide panels, place the panels on your inner walls and then fasten each panel to the walls and to each other.
If your ceiling joist are 2x6 and the panel is 2 foot wide. use a 2x6 with a 2x8 sistered to it along the perimators. If you used 3 layers of 5/8 sheet rock they would rest and fasten to the 2x6. The 2x8 that is sistered to the 2x6 could be covered with a finial layer of 3/4 OSB that could be "Carriage" Bolted to your wall framing???
The next ceiling panel could then be caulked and sealed to the next. The Outer skin of OSB would touch the next panel with OSB, and so on???
Outer layer 3/4 OSB +++++++++
5/8 Sheet Rock========
5/8 Sheet Rock========
5/8 Sheet Rock========
The 3 layers of 5/8 Sheet rock would total 1 7/8 inches. The 3/4 OSB would just cap the ceiling panel and could take a toggle or "Carriage Bolt".????
Just some thoughts...
Best Luck to you, And Thank You.
Thanks Again,
Stay Gold,
Ken Hamilton
Thanks Ken! Interesting idea!!!!! Food for thought.
It sounds like it should work, and sections that size shouldn't be too heavy to handle. I.m going to re-think my ceiling design (framing), and see how that would work, but it looks like a good possibility! Thanks!
- Stuart -
HIGHLY SUGGESTED IDEA!!!!!
======================
I just did something that I should have done ages ago, and STRONGLY recommend to anyone who is is still in the design phase for the studio: I built a "mock up" of the space.
OK "mock up" might be a bit of an exaggeration!! What I actually did is set up stacks of chairs in the church hall, and position the stacks to the same size as the dimensions of my room, so I got a rough outline of the room with the chair backs. I also set up a couple of pedestals, put the speakers on them, set up a table with my notebook, a chair, etc. everything to the exact dimensions that I was planning, or as close as possible.
Then I sat down for two days and worked on the mix for a CD that I'm busy with, in that space.
It might be a real simple mock-up, but I sure am glad that I did it. I learned a LOT! I need to re-think my speaker positions and angles slightly, to start with, as the mix position is not optimal for my head (and I figure it's easier to fix the speakers, than it is to fix my head!!!). My door positions will probably change, too. I figured out that I actually do have room for a small couch in the rear (I was hoping that I would, but dreading that I would not). I figured out that my rear bass trap positions will work just fine.
But most of all, I realized that I need to re-arrange my desk work surface: I'm getting reflections off it from the speakers (comb filtering), and it is uncomfortable for long hours. The mixer will have to go elsewhere, as I need much more space for the DAW, space to keep session notes clipboard, space to put things down that I'm not using but will need shortly, storage space (drawers?). I now see where I can put my racks for easy access. I need to figure out what to do about the sub-woofer, as it is really close to my feet, and I'm concerned that if I stretch out in a hurry I might kick the poor thing.
etc.
etc.
etc.
WOW!
I am SO glad I did that!
Once again, I strongly, STRONGLY recommend that you should take the time to do this, if you are still in the design stage. It opened my eyes.
- Stuart -
"What I actually did is set up stacks of chairs in the church hall"
What if you don't go to church?
Then apparently it's a good time to start going :lol:What if you don't go to church?
OK that was funny even made me laugh TThen apparently it's a good time to start going :lol:What if you don't go to church?
Greetings Stuart:
Hope this finds you well.
You may have already seen this, but just in case you haven't.
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=566&start=0
Stay Gold,
Ken
Oh WOW! Thanks Ken! That certainly makes a lot of sense.
It might be easier than I was thinking it would be, when you see it diagrammed like that. I was expecting that I'd need to have the ceiling joists rest on top of the wall top plates, but now I see it isn't necessary. I was also trying to figure out how to get the drywall on the "outside" of the studs to meet and seal with the drywall on top of the ceiling, and now I see that that isn't necessary either, with John's technique.
Great find, Ken! Thanks!
- Stuart -
That is a great tip. Easy to understand too, that's why pictures are good for some folks. :)
The modular concept makes sense for tight spaces like mine and yours Stuart.
W
Got a little free time, and I've been spending it on improving my studio design.
A question for the experts:
The local Home Depot equivalent here in Santiago is now stocking a new product called "Duraboard", which is basically an 8mm thick (roughly 1/3 of an inch) fibercement board that weighs around 11 kg per square meter. That works out to roughly 1,400 kg/m3, or about twice the density of drywall, if my calculations are correct. It costs a bit more for the same amount of mass, as compared with drywall, but I can live with that, because the main benefit is the density and thickness: I only need half the thickness to get the same isolation!
Would it make any sense to use this stuff instead of drywall?
They way I figure it, 2 sheets of this stuff gives the same mass as 4 sheets of drywall, but is only 16 mm thick, instead of 40. So I could gain two inches of space in each dimension of my room! 2 inches might not seem like much, but to me it is a LOT! You all know how desperate I am for every extra millimeter in this tiny studio, in order to get a decent room ratio, and a bigger air gap (not to mention leg room!). Going with this stuff instead of drywall would allow me to increase my air gap to 4 inches, and also gain a bit of extra floor space.
Does this make any sense? Is it worth considering?
The down side is that it would be harder to work with, and is damn heavy to maneuver around (each 4' x 8' sheet weights 32 kg!) But I can live with that if it makes sense otherwise, since it gains me both space and isolation.
Comments? Opinions? Suggestions? Dumb idea?
- Stuart -
Hello Soundman. Here in Colombia this product is called SuperBoard and comes in different thicknesses, even 16mm! They told me that this product if for using in exterior walls because it's resistant to the water, they use it too in the bathroom walls. Even when they are heavier than drywall, the broke very easy so be carefull. IMHO I guess that using one 12mm layer will be pretty much like two layers of 12mm drywall, but you have to test it anyway and see if it works. See you around EdGot a little free time, and I've been spending it on improving my studio design. A question for the experts: The local Home Depot equivalent here in Santiago is now stocking a new product called "Duraboard", which is basically an 8mm thick (roughly 1/3 of an inch) fibercement board that weighs around 11 kg per square meter. That works out to roughly 1,400 kg/m3, or about twice the density of drywall, if my calculations are correct. It costs a bit more for the same amount of mass, as compared with drywall, but I can live with that, because the main benefit is the density and thickness: I only need half the thickness to get the same isolation! Would it make any sense to use this stuff instead of drywall? They way I figure it, 2 sheets of this stuff gives the same mass as 4 sheets of drywall, but is only 16 mm thick, instead of 40. So I could gain two inches of space in each dimension of my room! 2 inches might not seem like much, but to me it is a LOT! You all know how desperate I am for every extra millimeter in this tiny studio, in order to get a decent room ratio, and a bigger air gap (not to mention leg room!). Going with this stuff instead of drywall would allow me to increase my air gap to 4 inches, and also gain a bit of extra floor space. Does this make any sense? Is it worth considering? The down side is that it would be harder to work with, and is damn heavy to maneuver around (each 4' x 8' sheet weights 32 kg!) But I can live with that if it makes sense otherwise, since it gains me both space and isolation. Comments? Opinions? Suggestions? Dumb idea? - Stuart -
That's definitely a question for the experts Stuart. I know the stuff you are talking about, they use it to put tile on walls here in the states. There is also Greenboard that is also used for tiling walls. It is basically a more water resistant form of drywall. Hmmm, good question man.
W
Hai Stuart,
As the mantra goes: "Mmmmmmmmaaaaaaassss", I'd say "sure, that'll work". If it's fire resistant (at some level) and easy to work with I'm sure to say "yeah". If it's even doable within your budget I'd say "yeah, dude!"
GB is great value for low money (relative); good mass, low cost, easy to work with and can stand a serious amount of heat/fire. If another product has the same props, go for it.
If my budget would allow it, I would use lead sheets all around... but you know... sigh.
Cool! Thanks for the comments, guys. I'll take that as my permission slip to use this stuff, at least on the front and back walls, where space is the tightest. I might still go with drywall on the sides, where I have a little more room.
And just to keep you all with your thinking caps on, I had another idea:
How about if I borrow from the "beef up between the outer leaf studs" plan, and also the "inside out inner leaf" plan, so that I just put ONE layer of this Duraboard stuff on the studs, then put the other layer(s) between the studs of the inside-out inner leaf? That way, I save another half inch on each end. Once again, a half inch doesn't seem like much, but for me it is a lot. This space is so tiny....
So I'd have a layer of 8mm Duraboard on the outside of the inner-leaf studs (the side that is "inside" the wall, directly facing the air gap), then another two (or maybe 3) layers of Duraboard cut to shape fitted between the studs, in the normal "veefing up" manner, caulked and cleated.
Does that make any sense? Too much work to save a half inch? Worthwhile?
I'm really trying to milk every last millimeter out of this matchbox...
- Stuart -
To start with; beefing up the outer wall is always good.
Placing MASS is one thing, placing it on the right location is another. As long as it's 2 leaf, disconnected and with some absorbent material in-between.. .you got my blessing.
In-side-out-walls; seems like a nice idea altho I've always had the feeling it's gonna end-up with too much wool exposed (too much absorption). I'm not a fan of those... and just to save an inch or two.. hmm. But hell, if it works for you, once again; go for it, dude!
Thanks, Ro! Another permission slip! :thu: Thanks!
I'm re-designing as we speak, based on "Duraboard" for critical dimensions, with beefing up inside the inside-out wall...
I'm a bit concerned about that too, but I figure I can always deal with that by covering it with something to recover the highs, and particularly I'm thinking of using John's "slot resonator wall", which should do the job of both dealing with problematic frequencies (I can tune the slots) and keeping reflecting surfaces on the room. In the worst case, I can always take some wool back out of the wall, and cover the empty gap with something. But I doubt it will come to that: Don't forget this is a really tiny space: My longest dimension is barely 2.8 meters! In such a small room, I figure that more absorption can only help. If I ask Ethan, I bet he'll say that I don't have enough! :) My biggest concern is the ratio, right now. I'm trying really hard to move it away from being a cube (it nearly was, a while back), towards some semblance of a usable ratio, but that's hard too: Getting close to a half-decent ration means that I have to shrink the room, and it's already so tiny! AAAAARRRRRGGGGHHHHH!!!! How I wish I could change the laws of physics, but only for my studio! :) - Stuart -In-side-out-walls; seems like a nice idea altho I've always had the feeling it's gonna end-up with too much wool exposed (too much absorption).