Drum room design

I have a son who has taken up the drums. I would like to build a room in the basement for him to practice in. We live in a reclaimed warehouse in New york. The floor is 9" concrete and the ceiling is 12 feet tall and also 9" thick concrete. I think a 6'X6' room should be large enough. I want to build the walls out of 2x3 steel studs and double 1/2" sheetrock with green glue in between. What else does anyone suggest I can install in the room to deaden the sound greatly coming from the room into the rest of the space. Is green glue a good start? I hope he keeps with this hobby after this investment!! Cheapest solutions would be best. Thank you,

hello drummersdaddy and welcome A room is 3D so you need atleast to beef up your ceiling as well. Is that room concrete all the way? building a frame, stuffed with wool, and adding mass like GB is a good start. Adding GG in between the GB is also a good option. Are there any windows? how about doors? Plumming? etc. Take some time to get up-to-date with what's-hot and what's-not within the context of building a soundroom. Start by making a floorplan with details of your current layout and your ideas on the "new" room. Let's discuss that first. Then, when all parties agree, move to the construction forum for details on the build. After that, have acoustics done. Theres another subforum about that. Room isolation and acoustics are two different things u know. There's also ROD's book. It's the best starting point. Get a copy, read it and design your room. Your son's gonna be a happy drummer :)

drumroom24 wrote:

I think a 6'X6' room should be large enough.

Sorry - but that is not nearly large enough...... Even a beginners drum set - with double toms and a floor tom - and just one ride cymbal - one crash and a high hat will eat up all of that room - and not allow your son a chance to feel anything but trapped. It is also so small that it will be next to impossible to treat so as to acheive any sort of sound at all. I am a drummer - and I wouldn't be able to practice in a room that small for any length of time - and would eventually become frustrated enough to just quit playing the drums if I were a beginner. So if your goal is to encourage your son to play the drums and stick with it - then rethink your design...... if your goal is to frustrate him so he quits - then steady on in the way you're headed now - it will succeed. A drum room for a basic kit (my kit eats up about 8' in width by 6' in depth) should be at least 10' x 14............... the 12' ceilings help. You also have to think about the fact that he will eventually want to have some friends over so he can make actual music......... which will be very important if he is to become successful in this endevor........ at which time the space should be more like 14 x 16........ However - begining with the smaller space (10x14) is ok for a start. I really wouldn't go a whole lot smaller than that.

I want to build the walls out of 2x3 steel studs and double 1/2" sheetrock with green glue in between. What else does anyone suggest I can install in the room to deaden the sound greatly coming from the room into the rest of the space. Is green glue a good start?

The 2x3 studs are pretty much useless for this - you really should construct this with 2x6 walls (wood is best) with resilient channel (RC-1 if you are real careful to not short out by screwing into a stud) and then 2 layers of drywall (5/8") each face with green glue in between. Mass plus the larger air space is your friend here - these drums have a lot of low frequency transmissions that the 2x3 stud will never overcome. 2x3 walls like you described work real well in the frequency range of the human voice - we use them all the time in hotels for example - BUT they are lousy when it comes to low frequency transmissions. I know you asked for inexpensive solutions - but LF isolation and cheap solutions do not compute......... you can have one or the other - but not both. Doors and seals for them will be another challenge - as will caulking all penetrations through the walls and the perimiter of all wall panels. And then the question of fresh air so you maintain your son's brain cells also comes into play - sound isolation equals no air movement equals unconscious bodies after a short while in small rooms without fresh air. bu now you realize that this is much more than you envisioned - but it won't do you any good for me to sugar coat this...... Anyway - that is a start - room treatments come after - but first you must decide where you are going to head with this.......

I hope he keeps with this hobby after this investment!!

Me too - the world doesn't have enough good drummers........

Cheapest solutions would be best.

That has alread been touched on........ Good luck, Rod

There's another option, get him a V-Drum + budget monitors :D The advantages are - total control of the overall output sound - practice with headphones - Unlimited sound samples - Coupled with a Drum VSTi sounds amazing & very close to a real drum set - He can store his work in MIDI format & recall them at any time A v-drum like the HD-1 is arround $800 :P

.....or start teaching him how to play the acoustic guitar ;)

FPR said

There's another option, get him a V-Drum + budget monitors Very Happy The advantages are - total control of the overall output sound - practice with headphones - Unlimited sound samples - Coupled with a Drum VSTi sounds amazing & very close to a real drum set - He can store his work in MIDI format & recall them at any time

I hate to be holier than the pope but i would not recommend learning the drums on V-drums. I read a great article today about drum mic'ing techniques and one of the points made was: "the sound is in the air, not in the wood". Well, i think the same applies to learning the drums. There is no way in hell you can teach somebody how to play a snare roll on V-drums. You can come close...but not really. Music is a listening art first! you can only play as well as you hear and if what you are listening to is roland samples you're not going on tour anytime soon. Good luck :shot:

Acoustic & MIDI drums have both advantages & disadvantages. In this case someone doesn't seems to have the budget & space to build up a dedicated booth. This is one of the possible alternatives. A beginner needs to learn the techniques first, that's true for almost all instruments. He doesn't have enough exercised ears before months of pratice (even years for some). I'm a drummer myself & use MIDI drums since 7 years now. It was pretty hard to imagine that a MIDI drums could compete with an acoustic one those days. Almost 3 years ago, all samples became realistic as they were recorded in high definition & in 11 velocities. But the weak point was the cymbals & crashes. Since 2or 3 years, new samples recorded in 13 different velocities powered by today's stronger machines are so realistic that even an experienced drummer can't hear the difference. If you knew how many acoustic tracks are released everyday with MIDI drums you would be surprised ! Of course a "WarLord" is better that a chinese MIDI drum, but it won't help you learn quicker or better. A beginner makes mistakes. So your WarLord will cost you 5 chinese drums before you can play your 1st track properly. A good instrument must be deserved !

I agree with most you are saying. Still, i can't imagine how you would learn to play an instrument if you are not responsible for producing the sound...

If you knew how many acoustic tracks are released everyday with MIDI drums you would be surprised !

No surprises, I use them all the time. this has nothing to do with a child trying to learn how to properly hit a snare drum. .

I've been playing for 44 years now and consider myself reasonably adequate as drummers go....... (of course I'm biased) - but, back in "the old days" you didn't get a set of drums to learn on - you got a practice pad - an instructor - and if you were real good - you only had the pad to deal with for 6 months or so while learning your paradiddles and flams, various rolls along with studying all of the notes and beats as you learned to hold a steady beat along with a metronome........ Then you graduated to a single snare drum. One could easily learn on a set of electronic drums if one had only the desire to learn buring within......... BTW - the electronic cymbals do sound great now - but they do not feel real to me.............. Rod

[ off topic mode on] Rod, we most have had the same instructor.. I've played on a pad (piece'o wood with rubber on it) for a couple'o months until I got my rudiments straight (those techniques Rod spoke of). Then I progressed to snare as well. Later I moved to hand percussion while still practicing my drumkit skills. Now, I'm a guitar lover.... gheh. Don't like electronic drumkits. [off topic mode off]

Rod, I'm not disputing the "pad first" approach. The point is when you do "graduate" to a full set if it's v-drums you are not going to learn how to play . Hitting the drums in time is not playing! When Nir Z playes the drums you don't need to move the faders behind the glass, he does the sound, on the set. and that's playing and that's something you can't learn on an electronic drum set.

Eran wrote:

When Nir Z playes the drums you don't need to move the faders behind the glass, he does the sound, on the set. and that's playing and that's something you can't learn on an electronic drum set.

I agree with Rod too, you could learn to play on pizza boxes if you had the motivation. Don't get me wrong I love and prefer an acoustic kit, but with quality triggers and a highly detailed modern sample library, you would be amazed at how musical the sensitivity can be on electric drums. Saying that you can't learn to play drums on an electric kit is like saying that you can't learn to play piano on a digital piano. About 2 years ago I saw the L.A. philharmonic beautifully performing video games scores. For one tune they broke out a V-drum kit! A great orchestra with an electric drum kit....now that was something I'd never seen before. I guess my whole point here is that the v-drums were accepted as an instrument in and of themselves and not just a second rate acoustic kit simulator although they do that quite well now a days too!

but with quality triggers and a highly detailed modern sample library, you would be amazed at how musical the sensitivity can be on electric drums.

I don't know why you assume i haven't heard a good trigger before. I guess it's a matter of taste. And yes you could learn how to play a pizza box but it's not a drum set.. And yes you can learn how to play piano on an electric piano. The question is: would you want to? Would you be inspired to practice? would you be half as developed as the neighbor's kid who has an acoustic piano actually vibrating under his hands. To each his own, to me it seems obvious. My thread is at: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=10665

Sorry, I don't mean to assume that you haven't had experience with a good electric setup. I just wanted to point out for everyone who may read this thread that I've come across a lot of guys that "messed around" with 1990's v-drums in their local music store years ago and still base there opinions on that experience. They've come a LONG way in just the past couple years alone. That's all. Nothing meant to be personal.

Eran wrote:

And yes you can learn how to play piano on an electric piano. The question is: would you want to? Would you be inspired to practice?

Well you may want to because with a touch of a button, you have an entirely different instrument under your hands which can make you a better well rounded musician because you get first hand experience of how different instrument timbres can work or clash together. You can also get a much better grasp on instrument roles and interplay. It vastly improved me as a composer and made working with bands much better overall. Electric drums offer a similar advantage as one could experiment with pitched percussion, bass lines, melodies, etc. If you goal is to be more of a meat and potatoes drummer or technical "drummer's" drummer then maybe those things aren't that important to you, but when it comes to collaboration and making music "musical" then it can be a great advantage. But as you said, to each his own. I don't own an electric kit or nor do I play with one on a regular basis, but I've had some great and innovative experiences with them and think they are a viable option to playing an acoustic kit in many different circumstances...including learning to play of course. Especially in an urban area where isolation is more important.

Eran wrote:

Hitting the drums in time is not playing! When Nir Z playes the drums you don't need to move the faders behind the glass, he does the sound, on the set. and that's playing and that's something you can't learn on an electronic drum set.

Ah, the discussion moves now to the nuances of dynamics and technique... I can't agree with you more that hitting the drums in time does not constitute playing - and believe me I understand dynamics...... I can sit with a band in a room to record - and once my levels are set the engineer doesn't have to touch a fader while I'm playing or during mixdown - I'll take it wherever it has to go - and will never overpower the people I am playing with. I have avoided electronic drums like the plague for many MANY years - and have been blessed with a studio where I can play 24/7 without disturbing anyone - But - it is my understanding that the new electronic drums are designed to take advantage of the dynamics of the drummer - including realistic sounding rims shots should you play one - and if that is truly the case - then a drumer can lear to play dynamically on them as well as on an acoustical set. If that is not the case - then I would have to agree on that point. BTW - I learned to play on pots and pans and cans and oatmeal boxes ntil I was 10 because my parents would not let me take lessons until then - no matter how much I begged - their attitude was that if I was still sincere then I must be serious about it. For the original poster - I have to apologize for the way this thread has been "stolen" - but I have offered you the best advice I can. Sincerely, Rod

Actually you are right Rod, There are very advanced electronic kits being developed today, some even have wood frames so they really behave like a set. And with 8 core computers and new drive technology you can really sample the heck out of it. I would trust them with a skilled drummer as a production tool, but i don't think it's a good learning instrument. I have to join in the apologies for the theft. :)

i teach music here in brooklyn. i have a handful of drum students, along with countless guitar students. some of them have v-drums to practice on, some have real kits, some just get to practice on my kit in my soundproof studio and have practice pads. they all learn, improve, and enjoy the drums.

I hope the original poster doesn't feel his thread 's been stollen. As you talk about it several times in your book, Rod, so many people over judge their needs. The big cavalry shouldn't be called every time. Especially for a beginner.