Help recording engineer design his studio

First of all let me say what a great forum this is. Truly a wealth of information. Eventhough i follow a lot of discussions around here i'm still only recording engineer not an acoustician. And thats precisely why i need your help. We got this space in the new building, which is being built as we speak, so i still have time to move things around in space. First three floors are business offices and the floors 4-6 above are residential. Our space is located on the second floor. Basically the space size is around 84m2, brick with concrete floors and ceilings. Ceiling height is 285cm. We are building a post-production/surround sound facility. We are not gonna be recording anything louder than occasional el. guitar. So no drums, bass amp etc. I have attached a picture of this space empty and a picture of our design idea. Like the most of spaces this one has its share of obstacles too, which must be dealt with. Questions are: - do you think there is any major design flaw that you can see from the picture,and if there is please advice - what do you think is worse- to have windows in front or back of control room, how would you feel about rotating control room by 180 degrees - do you think that the left front side of the control room irregularity could cause any problems - would you build inner walls with brick - would you isolate since we wont make a lot of noise,we are located in the middle of offices,and we are not gonna have blacksmiths or car-audio specialists as our first neighbours(at least i hope not) - how would you deal with those windows,i know they are pain in the a..e, but it would be nice to be able to open them, every now and then,and let some "real air" in Any help with this would be greatly appreciated, thanks

Anybody?

Get familiar with this information: REFERENCE AREA - Useful threads/links Exterior Windows?: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ndow+plugs Sealing off bedroom windows acoustically

- would you build inner walls with brick

Talk to people that are local who can tell you this. Most anyone here will tell you "no". Reason: The weight can produce structural failure. But, we do not know because it is almost always a guess from long distance :)

your CR design isn't all symetrical. What's your current floorplan (empty floor) are there already some walls up? any beams? etc.

@xSpace- thank you for these links, i will check them out I dont quite understand about what kind of structural failure you are talking about so if you can please elaborate. @Ro-you are saying that my CR isnt symetrical, thats precisely why im asking if that is a problem. If that is a problem i will have to make CR smaller which i really want to avoid, unless there is a way to do it and keep size of the room as is Also you have asked about empty floor plan- its attached above together with studio design idea Thanks for responding

This is adding on to what has already been written.

do you think there is any major design flaw that you can see from the picture,and if there is please advice do you think that the left front side of the control room irregularity could cause any problems

The lack of symmetry in the front half of the control room is a major design flaw. I do not recognize the layout of the monitors as any I know of from recommended practices for surround sound. I see nothing for low end absorption.

would you build inner walls with brick

I don't know prices of building materials in your area. I would investigate brick/drywall or double brick as options. This is assuming the floor can take the weight.

what do you think is worse- to have windows in front or back of control room, how would you feel about rotating control room by 180 degrees

Windows on the back are worse. You didn't ask specifically, but several things come to mind from looking at the drawing. Do you need a door from editing to control room. A single door with the required sound isolation would be very expensive. Otherwise double doors. A double door will be needed between recording and control room. You will probably need double doors at the back and between lounge and control room also. The lounge/kitchen is huge! Why the splaying of the side walls near the back? The doors in back of the control room open through the sofa? Have you considered angling the layout to get symmetry in the front half of the control room? Something to what was done here. What is the full layout of the facility? No office space? Where is the door on the upper wall in the drawings? It is in different locations in the two drawings. Andre

@AVare I dont know how to multiquote you so i will put your words in exclamation marks "I do not recognize the layout of the monitors as any I know of from recommended practices for surround sound." - its a normal configuration for surround sound, ok so it hasnt been drawn with upmost precision, its only there for approx. info "I see nothing for low end absorption." -there is nothing for low end absorption because this is only design idea, not a picture of acoustically treated room "This is assuming the floor can take the weight." - floor can take the weight, its a new building "You didn't ask specifically, but several things come to mind from looking at the drawing. Do you need a door from editing to control room." -i might have put wrong symbols so i have led you to believe that you are looking at the doors on the back wall -you are not, these are windows and the only entrance to the editing suite is through CR "You will probably need double doors at the back and between lounge and control room also." -i dont quite understand why would i need double doors between CR and lounge -just to add that i'm planning on putting sliding glass door between CR and lounge -same principle was used in the studio where i worked for a couple of years, that was designed by famous Recording Architecture -they have used one sliding door from CR to lounge and double sliding door from CR to recording room "The lounge/kitchen is huge!" -not really, its around 20m2 "Why the splaying of the side walls near the back?" -no need for that, i can remove it "The doors in back of the control room open through the sofa?" -there is no doors at the back of CR, those are windows "Have you considered angling the layout to get symmetry in the front half of the control room?" -well thanks for suggesting it, i will look into this possibility, all ideas are more than welcomed "What is the full layout of the facility? No office space?" -that is a full layout, and no there is no office space, we just dont need it "Where is the door on the upper wall in the drawings? It is in different locations in the two drawings." - that door can be placed anywhere in the top wall, hence the difference in drawings, i should have made that clear, sorry Andre, thanks for looking closely into this. I am open to any ideas about room layouts, since i'm not really good at it. Cheers

daiwa wrote:

- its a normal configuration for surround sound, ok so it hasnt been drawn with upmost precision, its only there for approx. info -there is nothing for low end absorption because this is only design idea, not a picture of acoustically treated room -i might have put wrong symbols so i have led you to believe that you are looking at the doors on the back wall -you are not, these are windows and the only entrance to the editing suite is through CR -just to add that i'm planning on putting sliding glass door between CR and lounge -there is no doors at the back of CR, those are windows - that door can be placed anywhere in the top wall, hence the difference in drawings, i should have made that clear, sorry

The questions I am asking are all related to studio design. Among other things, studio design is about details. If the drawings and information are not accurate, we can not give you correct advice.

-i dont quite understand why would i need double doors between CR and lounge -same principle was used in the studio where i worked for a couple of years, that was designed by famous Recording Architecture -they have used one sliding door from CR to lounge and double sliding door from CR to recording room.

Because of sound isolation. How loud is it outside the building? If the outside door is open, you will have one door isolating the control room from the outside. What if you have people talking loudly in the lounge area.

"The lounge/kitchen is huge!" -not really, its around 20m2

Is this a commercial facility? You have roughly 30% of your space devoted to the lounge area (for people reading this thread and not comfortable with metric, the room is about 200 ft^2). How much business do think will get because of the large, for a post-studio lounge area? Re-arranging so that the editing booth can be entered with out having to go through the control room would help getting simultaneous bookings for the two rooms.

Andre, thanks for looking closely into this. I am open to any ideas about room layouts, since i'm not really good at it.

You are welcome. We are not paid to give advice we give here. You have to do your homework. Kep asking questions. The more you know, the better your studio will be Andre

daiwa wrote:

I dont quite understand about what kind of structural failure you are talking about so if you can please elaborate.

"Our space is located on the second floor. - would you build inner walls with brick." Whatever you do is going to add weight to this upper floor, brick, wood framing with double fire rated rock...it's all extra weight that this building may have not been designed to support.

@AVare "Because of sound isolation. How loud is it outside the building? If the outside door is open, you will have one door isolating the control room from the outside. What if you have people talking loudly in the lounge area" -when i open outside door i enter into hallway which is really quiet so i dont see problems arising here -i dont think people talking in lounge should be any problem,they are next to CR not recording area "Is this a commercial facility? You have roughly 30% of your space devoted to the lounge area (for people reading this thread and not comfortable with metric, the room is about 200 ft^2). How much business do think will get because of the large, for a post-studio lounge area? Re-arranging so that the editing booth can be entered with out having to go through the control room would help getting simultaneous bookings for the two rooms" -these are really good points -but its very hard to make lounge area smaller because i cant move it from where it is now -toilet has to be where it is, kitchen must be where it is -i am looking into this and trying to come up with workaround -i will post new layout idea @xSpace -i will check with technical staff, but i dont think this should be a problem -the reason im asking is if its simpler to isolate between rooms by simply putting materials with most mass, like brick or concrete @everybody So what do you think of new layout idea? I think its better than my first idea, but CR is smaller now which is a drag. Really the only thing that i care about is CR, i want it too be as big as it can be, but i just cant do it Help and stuff, or something........ :lol:

Much better! Give me a day or two to think and give further suggestions. Good studio building is 90% design and 10% construction. This design stage is the most important. Andre

To quote start the quoted text in "quote" inside these [] and end with "/quote" in these []. This is just for ideas. It would need refinement for the column, window locations etc. The solid lines go to speaker positions per EBU/ITU recommendations. Sound space walls are 20 cm. Doors are 1 m wide. Do you want a shower or is that for something to do with the space?

@AVare This is a fresh idea, although CR doesnt appear to be symetrical, which was main concern if i remember it well. Correct me if i am wrong. Also in this design idea recording area looks very small. Considering shower, its something that might come handy after those long hours, plus i dont see any other use for this 1m2. I have put windows in your drawing so that you know where they are located. I cant see the way around them but to build wall in front of them and be done with it. Obviously i cant change outside appareance of the building so windows have to stay. Thanks for your effort

daiwa wrote:

This is a fresh idea, although CR doesnt appear to be symetrical, which was main concern if i remember it well. Correct me if i am wrong.

The control room is symmetrical on the inner walls. And yes, symmetry is very important.

Also in this design idea recording area looks very small.

It is for design ideas. Do you like the concept? The control room has the same area as in your first drawing. Actually a little bit more.

Considering shower, its something that might come handy after those long hours, plus i dont see any other use for this 1m2.

I was thinking about moving the lounge/washroom wall west enough so that the kitchen sink, fridge, oven and countertop could be put there. In your two drawings you had rotated the second one 180 degrees. I am taking the first drawing's alignment when saying west.

I have put windows in your drawing so that you know where they are located. I cant see the way around them but to build wall in front of them and be done with it. Obviously i cant change outside appareance of the building so windows have to stay.

Work out the isolation from the walls and match it by window plugs with pretty office pictures on the outside or make them match. This is still idea stage. What would you think of putting the control room against the north wall? A little smaller for size to make the listening distance less? The current speaker to listening distance is 3.21 m. Probably then the column can be somewhat integrated into the wall. Keep asking questions and answering questions! Andre edit 16:03 EST: I just came to the thread to re-read your comments and get confirmation on the window locations. The windows are in different locations in your first two drawings compared to where you drew them on top of my drawing. Which is it? No one can help you without accurate information.

I am posting your picture with windows again. This time i moved third window more to the right, if thats what was bothering you :shock: Otherwise window position is correct

I can not figure the dimensions for where the windows are. You work it out. The following has the spaces flipped. In looking for some guidance what size to make the control room, used 2.66 m as the speaker to listening distance. This is the median value for 5.1 systems in this document. The listener to back wall distance is 3 m to permit diffusion. There is 160 cm allowed for diffusors. The space at the front of control room is for bass absorbers. The cyan area is a common machine for both the post and edit rooms. To the right of the studio drawing is the control room with little 3d perspective. You can see that it is symmetrical. This is an idea drawing. Wall thicknesses for one example have not been accounted for. Andre

Looking pretty good, i must say. Although, if the CR is positioned in this way, only way to enter is on the back, which is bad. But i will consider this design as well. Maybe there is a workaround. Funny you should give me Genelec white paper on speaker placement, cos we will be getting Genelec 8240aDSP speakers. This 2,66m distance from speaker is for the main three way speakers, not the nearfields. Since we wont have big main speakers, only nearfields, it doesnt apply. I have included new drawing of my second idea where i have managed to enlarge CR by including that pillar inside of CR. I plan to build some kind of gyps wall sides around it to mask it, and do the mirror image on the left to preserve symmetry. What do you think?

You can hide the pillar like that if you want to. Looks good. What will you do for equipment noise? I suggested a machine room for both working rooms. You have not commented on that at all.

Although, if the CR is positioned in this way, only way to enter is on the back, which is bad.

??? Have a look at this. Door at back. I was in that setup shown in the video at the last New York AES convention. I'll read more about your monitors. If I don't know what you have/want/don't want/need, I can not be effective. Is there anything else you have left out I should know? Andre

I don't know how many read my last post, so I am doing this a separate post to keep "new messages" flags accurate. I read about the monitors you are planning to use, and I am completely confused on your intents. The plans you have submitted have a 35 m^2 area control room, and when a smaller room was suggested you were concerned about it getting too small. The monitors that are planning to use are nearfields. The stereo listening position will at best fit 2 people. Your current design room is large enough to fit an SSL 9072J console! Westlake studio e is 35.6 m^2 with that console. Granted, that area is after acoustic treatment, but the point is shown. BlackBird Studio B has almost the same raw area as your design and has an API Legacy 48 channel board. I am reading very large mismatch between the monitor system and control room size. Trying to help, Andre

@AVare I dont know if i could live with door being at the back of the CR. I will have to sleep over it. I just dont like the feel of it. "The monitors that are planning to use are nearfields. The stereo listening position will at best fit 2 people" -there will never be more than one engineer in the sweet spot, so i dont see what is the big deal "Your current design room is large enough to fit an SSL 9072J console" -yes,and so what? -are you saying that if i dont have 9000 series i shouldnt have big room? -those big monitors that they have in Westlake studios dont get to be switched on all the time, you know -i worked in a lot of big studios and most of the time people work on nearfields, and only check for the lowend on mains , or when they want to impress the client -and doing mainly post we dont need to impress clients more than they will be impressed when we play music on Genelecs 8240 which can go pretty loud, i must say -size of the room is important from many aspects -what we need is a spacious,big CR which can accomodate big producer desk with two Aeron chairs and behind them clients sofa with table where theycan chill -if we follow 38% rule, eventhough i dont care about it, we are looking at this room size for starters my friend -im not gonna even start about fitting all acoustical treatments inside CR which will make this room 7-8 m2 smaller

i'm guessing the lounge and edit room are the most important after the control room and you're not expecting to do much recording in the recording room except a drum or vox? depending on how you envision using the space dictates the flow and layout. I'm not seeing any isolation rooms, machine rooms, etc... even assuming the treatments consume space the CR seems very large - which can be good - assuming you have a 3-4m high ceiling...

gullfo wrote:

i'm guessing the lounge and edit room are the most important after the control room and you're not expecting to do much recording in the recording room except a drum or vox? depending on how you envision using the space dictates the flow and layout. I'm not seeing any isolation rooms, machine rooms, etc... even assuming the treatments consume space the CR seems very large - which can be good - assuming you have a 3-4m high ceiling...

We will do mainly VO work and record guitar or some kind of solo instrument every now and then. No drums, thank you very much. You dont see any machine room because i didnt put much thought into it. Its not like i need lot of space for a couple of computers. Iso room, if any, will be inside of recording area. I am not sure about that yet. If you have some suggestion, please do say it. Regarding CR size -i would like to know why couple of you guys think CR is too big -dont get me wrong, i just dont understand how can CR be too big -I allways thought CR should be as big as you can afford it to be -bigger CR-better sound-less acoustical problems Correct me if i am wrong. By the way, ceiling height is around 290 cm. Thanks for helping

since the ceiling is only 290cm high, I think you'll find appropriate ratios will keep your CR "small". given that, you may find that you have space for an isolation room, machine closet. the problem with the low ceiling is that you're trying to create a lot of volume (normally good) but the ceiling/floor interactions are going to be problematic to solve for folks in the back of the room... you might consider creating a second set of soffits for the back room so your producers can hear whats going without reliance on the front speakers. you could also consider putting the producers and clients into a separate room facing the control room - this way you could also use that space for isolation when needed. if the split between rooms is a sliding or french door, visibility and opening it up becomes possible as well...