Quick, temporary absorption (odd space, tracking only)

Hello, and thank you for the wonderful forum. I'm preparing to do some tracking of acoustic instruments (voice, guitar, upright bass, possibly some woodwinds/brass) and electric guitar/bass (mic'd cabs and DI). Nothing will be terribly loud. Drums have already been tracked elsewhere. I'll be doing no mixing here. I'm hiring a top-tier mixer in a top-tier room to mix. I mention this to let you know that this room needn't be prepped for mixing, and also that an expert will be manning the controls (with excellent gear) when it comes time to add room ambience and tweak eq. I'm recording at home to save money and also for the privacy and freedom it allows. It's very quiet here late at night and I'll be doing most of my quiet recording between 10pm and 6am. The room is odd (see photos). It's the top floor of my converted workshop apartment, roughly 20'x13'. Ceiling has an interesting cathedral vibe to it--about 6'3" at it's highest point, sloping at different rates to the sides (about 4.5' at their lowest). I'm 5'9". I rent the space, so I can't go too crazy, and I'm also eager to get recording, so I want to make this a good recording space asap and get started recording. Based on some feedback from Ethan W and others my current strategy is to put some absorption on the ceiling and back wall and put down a sheet of 4x8 plywood to get some nice reflection. For the absorption my original plan was to purchase two sheets of 2" 4x6 wedge foam (one each for the back wall and ceiling) put the plywood down and get to it. However, the place that sells the foam (foambymail.com) says it'll take 1-1.5 weeks to get here and I'd really rather not wait that long. I do have paragon pacific here in my neighborhood, and that factors into one of my questions which are: 1st of all, do you like this plan, feel it's adequate, think I should add/subtract anything? 2nd: If I decide to use 703 (since I have quicker access to it and from what I've read it may be superior for my application) is it ok to just put it in a bag and staple it to the wall and ceiling? I don't really have time/tools to build the wooden frames, plus my ceiling is very wonky and I'm not sure it'd work to hang something heavy from them. My plan is to mic most of the sources using two mics: a close mic right on the source and a more distant one with a reflexion filter to provide some breathing room for the source. Thanks for reading this, and TIA for any and all suggestions/feedback. --David

kittyboy wrote:

the place that sells the foam (foambymail.com)

Stop right there. See this: www.ethanwiner.com/fraud.html

If I decide to use 703 ... is it ok to just put it in a bag and staple it to the wall and ceiling?

Sure. --Ethan

Ethan, you are the man. Thank you saving me from fraud--like everyone, I HATE being defrauded. SO-- for absorption purposes am I better off with 703 or 705? Will 4" on the back wall and 2" on the (semi-sloped) ceiling be sufficient? What would be the best material to make quick and dirty (bags) traps for the odd corners? Thanks again!

Ethan Winer wrote:

kittyboy wrote:

the place that sells the foam (foambymail.com)

Stop right there. See this: www.ethanwiner.com/fraud.html --Ethan

That's like birdshot isn't it Mr. W? That page has a few lines about your experience with foambymail then continues with a laundry list of other unassociated grievances. My experience with your net presence is that you seem to be what you seem to project, an honest informed individual with a product to move. I think my focus here is, your words against foambymail with nothing more, from my user point of view, does nothing to support the initial warning. In the world of business, he said she said, is bound to lead to much discomfort to all parties involved.

If you check the search keywords (in the header of the source of that page) meant to be found by search engines like google and get a high ranking of that page:

source code http://www.ethanwiner.com/fraud.html wrote:

<meta name="keywords" content="ethan winer, acoustics, bass traps, acoustic treatment, foam by mail, ready acoustics, readytraps, ready traps">

And then read that page, and you'll see the real intent of that page and its author. Try Google with this Keyword (imagine you're just a guy wanting to know something about that company and it's products): ready acoustics And you'll notice that Ethan's Fraude page is ranked 4th in the list, just by searching for a competing company or its products. That's not accidental, but Ethan Winer. Hence with innocent eyes (speciality) he can attack competitors he doesn't like using other topics as alibi to harm them. Such links in posts should be forbidden in a forum as being spam. Ethan could have told here simply that FBM foam isn't good, and it should answer the same thing. However, he doesn't let a golden opportunity as this one pass to link to that more than inferior page. And the text about "Foam By Mail" is a complete misrepresentation of the facts, which is already discussed AND substanciated in this Forum. Correct is that FBM foam is of inferior acoustic quality, but that's not discovered by Ethan Winer. xSpace: It's nice to notice that you feel some strategy behind that link, going beyond informing the questioner in this thread. Even when you don't know any of the related history.

I appreciate you guys wanting to get to the bottom of this, but in the meantime I'd be most obliged if someone would tell me: *is 703 or 705 suitable for sound absorption in my application? *if so, which would be superior? *would 2" suffice on the ceiling, 4" on the back wall? *can I just wrap it in fabric and tack it up? *do you agree with Ethan's suggestion to use a sheet of plywood over my carpet to capture acoustic sounds? Thanks so much!

703 and 705 are both used. Since 703 is A LOT cheaper than 705 you're better off with more 703 than less 705, for the same price (making absorbers where needed thicker, as in e.g. corners and back-wall). You can also alternative boards if you can find them. Some of them are significant cheaper: http://www.bobgolds.com/AbsorptionCoefficients.htm Putting them in bags is OK, whichever, as long as you can blow through the fabric. Fire properties are possibly a factor to concider (your decision). Covering the carpet with hardboard or plywood can be a good thing to better reflect the whole spectrum (carpet only absorbs highs). But there are different visions about that. You could easily try the effect with the cheapest hardboard you could find.

Eric_Desart wrote:

Try Google with this Keyword (imagine you're just a guy wanting to know something about that company and it's products)

Imagine you're just a guy wanting to know something about RealTraps and its products, so you Google RealTraps. Guess what comes up? An ad on the right with the headline REAL TRAPS. But if you click the ad it takes you to the Ready Acoustics web site! This is yet another example that shows how low Joel DuBay and his partner will stoop to rip off my company's ideas, product designs, and good name. In this case the offense is trademark infringement, in addition to fraud. I stand behind everything in my Fraud Report, and I have even more examples of slimy behavior I can post if anyone here thinks what I've shown so far is not sufficient to paint a true picture. --Ethan

Ethan Winer wrote:

Eric_Desart wrote:

Try Google with this Keyword (imagine you're just a guy wanting to know something about that company and it's products)

Imagine you're just a guy wanting to know something about RealTraps and its products, so you Google RealTraps. Guess what comes up? An ad on the right with the headline REAL TRAPS. But if you click the ad it takes you to the Ready Acoustics web site! This is yet another example that shows how low Joel DuBay and his partner will stoop to rip off my company's ideas, product designs, and good name. In this case the offense is trademark infringement, in addition to fraud. I stand behind everything in my Fraud Report, and I have even more examples of slimy behavior I can post if anyone here thinks what I've shown so far is not sufficient to paint a true picture. --Ethan

WOW, I would think Google would put a stop to stuff like that, would they not? When is this crap going to end? Glenn

myfipie wrote:

WOW, I would think Google would put a stop to stuff like that, would they not? When is this crap going to end? Glenn

If true, substanciated and a rightful complaint, from the moment you inform Google. From practical experience I know Ethan uses this method fast and without hesitation when assuming he's right. I can't simulate this. Have you checked this yourself Glenn? Have you also checked the rest? Or are you just corporating here (the low and higher budget market joining hands?). You don't seem to have a problem with Ethan's action? Ethan's reponse almost confirms that his link was hardly related or meant to answer the OP's question. Even a loyal forum member feels that this link represented something different than an answer to the OP. Hence indeed, when is this crap going to end? Further as far as I know Ready Acoustics didn't steal a thing from nobody. I don't know about any wrong published data by them ..... You all based your basic products on knowledge gathered at Studiotips, including corner absorption for porous materials, metal frames and the chunks principle. Such links, with one-sided hardly substanciated stories, related to strictly personal interests and aversion, not or only sideways meant (more as an alibi) to answer the question of the OP at hand should be forbidden. I know how much wrong, misleading, stuff is in that page. And leave this thread to the OP, rather than your combined strategy against (non-present) competitor(s).

Eric_Desart wrote:

If true and substanciated, from the moment you inform Google. I can't simulate this.

I captured the screen below four days ago.

as far as I know Ready Acoustics didn't steal a thing from nobody.

They stole my name RealTraps changing one letter to ReadyTraps. After publicly denigrating our use of a metal MiniTrap frame with perforations they stole that too. Only they did a poor job because their perforations are too small to be acoustically useful. Actually, I know for a fact that you are the one who suggested they steal our metal frame design.

And leave this thread to the OP, rather than your combined strategy against (non-present) competitor(s).

Please invite Joel to this thread to answer for his actions. You have some answering to do too Mr. Desart. You have been employed by Joel and Scott and are obviously biased, yet you hide that fact and even deny it as you continue to attack me. You should be ashamed. --Ethan

Ethan Winer wrote:

Eric_Desart wrote:

If true and substanciated, from the moment you inform Google. I can't simulate this.

I captured the screen below four days ago.

If that was the intent you should rightfully complain at Google. As I righfully complain about your link and its content. I hate dishonesty no matter where it comes from.

Ethan Winer wrote:

Actually, I know for a fact that you are the one who suggested they steal our metal frame design.

What a complete BUNCH of dishonest suggestive nonsense. I used metal frames perforated and not, long BEFORE Ready acoustics and RealTraps ever existed. I even published the related measurement data on the net BEFORE RealTraps existed. I measured the effect of perforation in steelsheet on absorption in an official lab BEFORE RealTraps ever existed. Hence if you call that stealing (your words) who stole from who? It's this kind of deceiving nonsense and plain lies you throw around without whatever sense of shame with innocent eyes. Further steel framed baffels were and are standard items in industrial use.. It's a logical manner to make authonomic stable items. Such absorbers were discussed at Studiotips before MiniTraps ever existed. Further your comments about my integrity, I leave them yours, they tell about you, not me. OVER AND OUT If the OP wants to know additional useful info please ask.

I'm no expert on how web search engines work, but I know a little bit - from experience - about "do's and don'ts" when it comes to optimizing search hits for products. I am not commenting on any of the above since I don't know (and don't want to know) the specific details. I offer this only as general advice from one who has "been there." Many search engines use what are called "meta tags" to generate hits. Put simply, these are keywords buried in the HTML (or equivalent) code of a page. Using competitors' trademarks in your page's meta tags is a BIG no-no. Any P&TM attorney will tell you so. In the U.S., it is generally illegal in the context of situations that either (a) cause confusion in the market place, or (b) redirect potential customers of a competitor's product(s) to your page. (Even if that is not your intention.) And do keep in mind that a trademark does not need to be registered to be considered a trademark. If I create a product called the SuperduperhyperübermegaTrap™ along with a website and the rest, I am protected regardless of whether I register the name. If I do, that offers me more protection. However, I am protected without registration - in the US, at least - by the very fact that I've established the brand and the name in the market. ™ = trademark ® = registered trademark (see www.uspto.gov in the US)

(I feel like I'm in an abbot & costello movie or something, where some guy asks what he thinks is an innocent question and finds himself in the middle of a dispute. Kind of like the Susquehanna hat scene.) I'd LOVE some suggestions of working with my recording space that would be * relatively inexpensive *easy to implement (not time consuming or require construction if possible) *temporary (and ideally storable and re-usable). As of today I'm thinking about auralex foam (since I can't trust foambymail), 24 sq ft of 2" on the ceiling and the same on the rear wall, with 4x8 plywood on the floor. Anybody?

kittyboy wrote:

(I feel like I'm in an abbot & costello movie or something, where some guy asks what he thinks is an innocent question and finds himself in the middle of a dispute. Kind of like the Susquehanna hat scene.)

No, What's on second...

As of today I'm thinking about auralex foam (since I can't trust foambymail), 24 sq ft of 2" on the ceiling and the same on the rear wall, with 4x8 plywood on the floor.

Probably not enough material, but you're on the right track. In general, this would be a good start. However, to take as much room out of the recordings as possible, you will either need to augment the 2" material either with some thicker stuff - generally in the corners to treat low frequency problems - or with some "bass traps." Provided you have the corners addressed, you will probably need about 2x to 3x more wall/ceiling treatment than what you're thinking.

Thanks for the reply, LC. Do I need to worry about the corner even if I'm only recording relatively quiet things in my room and using the reflexion filters? What's an easy/inexpensive/ideally re-usable solution for corners? Thanks again!

Eric wrote: "Have you checked this yourself Glenn?" Yes I did and saw it also, but I guess Ethan just proved it to you. "Have you also checked the rest? Or are you just corporating here (the low and higher budget market joining hands?)." Eric this is no less the 4th time in 2 months you have made some kind of comment about Ethan and I. As I would be just fine working with Ethan we are not. As you wrote "I hate dishonesty no matter where it comes from." Maybe you should live by your own words. :shock: BTW do you plan on asking that same question a MILLION times with the same answer from me or are you really not asking a question? :roll: Glenn

Bud Abbott: You’ve got to deliver these to the Susquehanna Hat Company! Lou Costello: Where? Bud Abbott: It’s on Bagel Street! Lou Costello: Where’s Bagel Street? Bud Abbott: I don’t know, we’ll ask somebody. It’s on our way down there Lou Costello: (Getting a hat from the box) How much did you say they are? Bud Abbott: $7.50 a piece! Lou Costello: (places a hat on his head) How do I look with a 7 and a half dollar hat on? Bud Abbott: Let me see ... say, kind of spiffy! Lou Costello: OK? Bud Abbott: Alright, but carry those (gives boxes to Lou) but don’t get it dirty! Lou Costello: Let’s go Bud Abbott: Be careful Lou Costello: Bagel Street eh? Bud Abbott: Bagel Street! Lou Costello: We’ll ask somebody! Bud Abbott: We’ll ask somebody! (down the street) Bud Abbott: Here. Ask this fellow where Bagel Street is! Lou Costello: OK - (to stranger) Excuse me ... can you tell me where Bagel Street is? Man: Sorry Buddy, I haven't got a dime! Lou Costello: Who's asking you for money? I'm only asking you where Bagel Street is! Man: Do I know where Bagel Street is?? Of course I know where Bagel Street is! What do I look like, a dummy? Do I look like I have just come off a boat? Is there a tag on my lapel saying that I just came from Ellis Island? Of course I know where Bagel Street is! I was born and raised on Bagel Street! My brother was born on Bagel Street! You know my brother? Lou Costello: All I'm asking you ... Man: (interrupting) Why do you go round talking about my brother? I'll have you understand my brother is one of the finest guys to have ever walked in shoe leather. My brother was an honest student at school! Go ahead, say something nasty about my brother. Say something like ... 'he shouldn't get a parole!' Lou Costello: I'm asking you where Bagel Street is! A common ordinary citizen asking another fellow where Bagel Street is! I have to deliver these hats to the Susquehanna hat company! Man: (grabs Lou by the lapels) Lou Costello: Let go of me! Man: (points to Lou's hat) - is that a Lou Costello: yeah! Man: (Takes off Lou's hat and holds it) You know who makes these hats? Lou Costello: I don't know some ... Man: (interrupting) Child labour! Little girls. 13 - 14 years old. Little girls with curls down their hair. They work 13 - 14 hours a day. They work in a sweatshop all day long. (punches hole through top of hat) Here's what I think of a Lou Costello: (helplessly looking on as man goes crazy ripping his hat apart) seven and a half dollars!! Man: Ow!! (he's just cut his finger) Mmmm (sucking finger) Lou Costello: What's the matter? Man: So you put the wire in there to cut my finger? (beating Lou over the head with the hat) Boy! the Bud Abbott: Well. You know that's gonna cost you, you know! Lou Costello: Give 'em back to Dan Bud Abbott: Seven dollars and fifty cents! You broke one of Dan's hats! Lou Costello: Look, all I did was put a hat on my head (places another hat on his head) Did I ask the guy to take it off? Bud Abbott: That's enough! It's the way you ask them! Lou Costello: You ask the next guy! Bud Abbott: Come on. Never mind. Let's find Bagel Street! (Further down the street) Bud Abbott: Here. Ask this lady where Bagel Street is! Lou Costello: Excuse me lady! Can you tell me where Bagel Street is? Lady: Bagel Street? (cries) Ohh, why did you have to remind me of Bagel Street? My husband was killed on Bagel Street, do you hear? My husband was killed on Bagel Street! Lou Costello: Well I mean, after all, all I don't understand this. I wanna go, to the Susquehanna Hat Company! Lady: Susquehanna Hat Company??? (cries angrily, takes hat off Lou's head) - Is that a Susquehanna hat? That's the same kind of hat my husband was wearing when he was killed! He wouldn't have lost his life if he had of been wearing a good hat when that safe fell off that 15 storey building - but no! He was wearing a hat like this one. (punches hole through hat) That's the cheapest hat I ever saw ... Oh! My husband's dead! (runs off crying) He's Dead! He's Dead! Lou Costello: He ain't dead lady ... he's hidin'! Bud Abbott: Now look! Lou Costello: That guy! Bud Abbott: Now, just a minute! That's two hats you've broken! Now you know how much you own Derby Dan? Lou Costello: How much do I owe Derby Dan? Bud Abbott: Fifteen Dollars! Lou Costello: Fifteen Dollars? Bud Abbott: Yes! (shouting) and STOP insulting women!!! Lou Costello: Look! All I asked her was 'where was Bagel Street!' (Young Woman walks up behind Lou) Young Woman: Bagel Street? (screams) Lou Costello: (punches hole in hat before she has an opportunity) Young Woman: Bagel Street? Don't ever mention that name to me again! I can't stand it! (takes broken hat and hits Lou over the head with it) BAGEL STREET! (storms off) Oh! Bud Abbott: Wait a minute! Lou Costello: (picks up hat boxes and looks as if he's about to throw them away) Bud Abbott: Hold that still! Lou Costello: Give him back the hats! Bud Abbott: Take that box and go on down there and find out where Bagel Street is! (pushes Lou down the street -- further down the street - pauses outside china pottery shop) Lou Costello: Hey, Eddie. Bud Abbott: What? Lou Costello: How much do I owe Derby Dan now? Bud Abbott: Twenty two dollars and fifty cents. Lou Costello: I'm going to try just one more! (places another hat on head) Bud Abbott: Be careful with that one, will you please! Lou Costello: Yes sir! Bud Abbott: Hey wait a minute ... I've got an idea. I'm going to run back to our plumbing shop, and get some of those little business cards of ours, and we can give them away to those society people up in Briarwood. Lou Costello: Very good business sense you got Eddie! Bud Abbott: But find out where Bagel Street is, please! (Exits scene) Lou Costello: OK, I'll ask another guy that comes along. I'll ask anybody, I don't care! (Man comes into scene) Lou Costello: Excuse me, Mister. Can you please tell me where Bagel Street is? Man: (sadly) Bagel Street? Don't ask me where Bagel Street is ... (starts crying) A terrible thing happened to me on Bagel Street (openly sobbing). I was walking along, minding my own business, and a safe fell off a 15 storey building on my head and killed me!! Lou Costello: A safe fell 15 floors on your head and killed you? Man: Yeah!! (sobbing) Lou Costello: Well, as long as you're dead then there's no use asking you where the Susquehanna Hat Company is ... Man: (loudly) Susquehanna Hat?!? That's the kind of hat I was wearing when I was killed and ... Lou Costello: (quickly takes off hat and places it back in the box) Man: ... and you ask me about a ... (takes hat out of box) - this hat?? this hat is not worth wearing and .. (yelling) This is the kind of hat I was killed in! (punches hole through hat) Lou Costello: Eddie! Man: (beats Lou over head repeatedly with broken hat) Lou Costello: Eddie! Eddie! Man: (screaming) You're asking me about ... (pauses) I'm so sorry (calmly). I .. I .. I think I've broken your hat! Lou Costello: You think you've broken it? Man: Yeah Lou Costello: This is the fourth Susquehanna Hat I... Man: (yelling) Susquehanna! (grabs vase and breaks it over Lou's head -- Shop proprietor, an older Italian man named Luigi, comes out to see what the commotion is about) Luigi: What are you doing? Help! Police! Help! Help! Help! Cop: What's going on here? Luigi: Ah, this fellow here, this big fellow, is trying to take it on the little fellow, my friend Cop: (grabbing man) Come on! Luigi: Lock him up! Man: (Smiling) You can't take me to Jail! Cop: Oh no? Man: I'm dead!! (laughs) You can't take me to jail! Cop: Oh yes I can! Come on! Man: I'm Dead! (laughing hysterically) Ha ha ha ha! Cop: (drags crazy man off to jail) Luigi: He's crazy! Lou Costello: He's crazy! Luigi: Yeah! What can I do now for you, Albert? Lou Costello: Luigi, How can I get to the Susquehanna Hat Company? Luigi: Susquehanna! Susquehanna! Lou Costello: Luigi! Luigi: (Runs in shop, reappears with axe and smashes all the vases on display!) Lou Costello: (grabs hat boxes and runs off)

kittyboy, WAY FUNNY. What website did you get that from? Glenn

From their TV show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3rzUi7FytI and, well, you know who. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M Naturally, Andre

Ethan Winer wrote:

I stand behind everything in my Fraud Report, and I have even more examples of slimy behavior I can post if anyone here thinks what I've shown so far is not sufficient to paint a true picture. --Ethan

Didn't know anything like this would be happening Mr. W., wasn't were I was at, at all. I was thinking just individual pages for specific concerns. It(the page in question) seemed, to me, to get unfocused rather quickly and drifted from the initial target. I know forums can be a hotbed when buttons are pushed so maybe you can forgive me not knowing this was a button.

AVare wrote:

From their TV show: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3rzUi7FytI and, well, you know who. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sShMA85pv8M Naturally, Andre

The version from the movie "In Society" is much better than the tv version, but there's no youtube clip...

Still hoping for more guidance...

kittyboy wrote:

Do I need to worry about the corner even if I'm only recording relatively quiet things in my room and using the reflexion filters? What's an easy/inexpensive/ideally re-usable solution for corners?

Yes. Stack fiberglass in the corners, cover with an acoustically transparent fabric. Ande

Thanks for all the input. FWIW, I'll do the right thing when I have a space that's more my own and measure and build absorbers and all that (I"m looking forward to it), but for now I just want to get things reasonably good in here (with a temporary/storable solution) and start recording. With that in mind, I hope you won't mind if I ask to be taken by the hand a bit here. I've spent a lot of time searching this site and others as well and most of the treatments are relatively involved construction projects. I'm just looking to git 'er done: 75% of the benefit (or less even) in 25% of the time. Someone said I shouldn't use foam. OK. And that 2" of fiberglass might not be enough. OK, although I can't really do more than 2" on the ceiling because my head will start to bump it! Should I just tack some 4" 703 on the back wall and cover it with fabric, some 2" on the ceiling, cover with fabric? And for the corners can I just stuff some fiberglass into a big cloth bag and jam it in there? Roughly how much? Two of my corners are only 2' high! I really appreciate the individual help and apologize for having to ask for personal attention like this when I know there's so much information already on this site. Thanks again!