Mission impossible?!?!

Pro Audio Mike · Post by **Pro Audio Mike** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 11:10 am

Hi...what a wonderful place this seem to be, just what I've been looking for

I am a teacher/producer/engineer in Sweden that has got a Major problem for the moment. We are moving 2 of our studios to a new facility, and we have a lot of work waiting to be done. The problem is that we have to start working very soon and dont have the time to do a "rebuilding" of some of our new studiorooms. Therefore I would like to hear if some of you out here could help me to solve the acoustic problems at our new rooms. It have been a radiostudio before we got here and it's not 100% perfect acoustically as to say.
I did a simple layout of our "big" controlroom and as you can see there are some major problems to solve.

As I said we dont have the time to do a major rebuilding of the room, we have to fokus on making an acceptable change by small changes.

I want to build some basstraps in the corner but unfortunately the studiowindow goes all the way into the corner so if someone have a good solution of how to solve that problem I'd be very glad.

Short info about the room:

* Wood floor
* Studiofoam at the "front" walls
* Studiofoam mixed with woodpanels on the side and "rear" walls
* Damped "ceilingpanels"
* Dimensions: L: 6,6m W: 4,9m H: 2,6m

We are going to use the B&W 801 Nautilus speakers, standing on the floor.

What do you think about it...is there something that can help us to get better acoustics?! Any suggestions about how to deal with the basstrap in the corners (especially in the right corner where the studiowindow's "disturbing") Maybe you have some other great solutions?!

Would be great to hear your inputs on this one guys...

Have a supernice day!!
/Mike

Post by **John Sayers** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 1:24 pm

Here's the pic.

without doubt the biggest problem you have is all the windows. With your current setup you'd have to block them all off BEFORE you can expect any kind of acoustic treatment.

is that possible??

cheers
john

Pro Audio Mike · Post by **Pro Audio Mike** » Mon Nov 17, 2003 6:50 pm

Hi John!

As you say the biggest problem will be all the windows...
It's possible to block the "rear"window but not the studio and vocalbootwindow. Hmm...

I really would like some diffusors at the rearwindow-wall and block the corners at the frontwall...but how will I solve the studiowindowproblem?!
Is there an option to do the basstrap, at the right corner, to be above and beneath the window...will that help at all?? The studiowindow is about 0.8m(height) and 2m(wide)...starts at about 1m from the floor.
The walls are splitted in 2 fields you could say...there is woodpanel from the floor and 1m up on the wall, and the top of the wall is covered with a mix of "studiofoam" and woodpanel.

I dont know if Auralex products (or other companies products) will help at all or if its better to build my own diffusors/absorbents/basstraps etc?!?!

Thanks for your reply John!
Best / Mike

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 7:10 am

Just a few observations - first, if that drawing is to scale, you need to push the whole mix area toward the studio a bit - right now, it looks like the mix position is dead center between front and rear walls; it already needs to be centered from side to side, and your low ceilings will make it likely that the mix engineer's head will ALSO be centered top to bottom. This means that in all likelihood, the engineer's head will be centered in all three planes in that room, right at the nulls of all three room modes' odd harmonics. I shudder to think of the mixes that will come out of that room if you leave it that way...

Probably your best option for that front end would be to build panel type bass traps under and over the window as you said, duplicating them on the other side of the front wall - if you mount rigid fiberglas in front of them (but not touching the panels) it would help kill some of the front wall reflections; when actually mixing, maybe a movable Gobo placed in front of the studio window.

For the sides, if you might build a pair of Plexiglas gobo's that would sit angled into the center at the front, they would help the bad reflections you'll have from the booth window and the opposite side wall. Their positions would need to be experimented with for best compromise between stereo imaging and bass response - they should be minimum 1 meter high, centered near head height on stands.

Also, you might tighten up the Nautilus' bottom with some stands, here's one option -

http://www.soundanchors.com/page40.html

The rear of the room should be absorbed, NOT diffused - it's not long enough not to cause smearing of stereo imaging otherwise.

I've marked up your drawing to show what I'm talking about -

What do you think, John? Could this work to salvage this room somewhat?

Steve

Post by **John Sayers** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 8:23 am

What do you think, John? Could this work to salvage this room somewhat?

possibly - it's a tricky one this one - perhaps you could turn it around like this - at least you'd retain you views to the studios and not have to block off all the windows.

cheers
john

Pro Audio Mike · Post by **Pro Audio Mike** » Tue Nov 18, 2003 10:28 pm

Hi Guys!

Yee...it seem to be a tricky one as you said John...hmm...

A lot of things to think of, and as I can see the main problem is all the windows.

My first drawing was like this...I dont know if this can work at all or if the windows still "destroying" the possibilities to get a comfortable sound.
My thought was to "take away" the cornerns to get the same angle as the speakers will have towards the mixspot. And in the studiowindow corner I wondered if I could build an opening for the window and make a sort of "windowsill" where I could place a lamp or a flower that would take away some of the reflections that might be.

But what is best...to have "straight" corners or to take them "away" as on my drawing?!?!

I will put the Nautilus speakers on stand to get the more controlled bass, which is very important of course.

A good thought Steve...about the "odd harmonics" thing...hmm...maybe if I put the speakers more together, the mixspot will get closer to the speakers, then it might work in a better way?! What do you think??

Great thought John...about turning it around like that...hmm. But its hard to get a sofa in there, at the back.
What I dont like about this room is that there will always be compromises whatever I do!

I really appreciate all your input guys...really!!!
Best / Mike

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 11:07 am

"A good thought Steve...about the "odd harmonics" thing...hmm...maybe if I put the speakers more together, the mixspot will get closer to the speakers, then it might work in a better way?! What do you think?? " -

What I think, is that you may need to match your $15,000 a pair speakers with a room that can handle them - after looking up the specs on B & W's site, I think that your speakers are more worthy of a mastering suite that's 3-4 times the cubic volume of your current room. Their unique shape would make it interesting (to say the least) if you were to attempt soffits - Even though they are spec'd at 37-20kHz within 2 dB, they are only down 6 dB at 23 hZ and 30 kHz - that's a lot of bass to try and contain in a small box, cornerless or not.

Although the drivers are relatively close together, tightening up your "triangle" by any more than already shown may make the "sweet spot" pretty elusive. Raising them on stands a bit will put the center of the driver cluster closer to ear height, so that would allow slightly closer monitoring. As it is, these appear to be mid-to-far-field speakers - and they have the power to back it up.

But, getting back to your harmonics question - in a smaller room like that, you only need move an element a few inches to get into or out of a peak or a null - my main reason for the comment was that you were positioned so close to nulls that it would be good to be aware of the possibility.

I'm not coming up with any practical way of fixing all the problems in that room - for simplicity's sake, I'd try my first suggestion but with sheets of plywood where the plexi gobo's were, and some thick absorbent (either 2" or thicker rigid fiberglas or 3-4 thicknesses of foam) over the studio window - make sure the mix position isn't centered front to back, and see what it sounds like. Pull the plywood and absorbent out of the way for a quick comparison. If it doesn't work for you, give the plywood back to whoever you got it from and keep looking.

I'm not suggesting this as being better than John's idea, far from it - only that it's quicker, and you said you were in a hurry.

I'd keep in mind that you may never be able to use that big a speakers in that small a room, though... Steve

Post by **John Sayers** » Wed Nov 19, 2003 2:18 pm

If you can afford to build why not build a full splayed front with the speakers soffit mounted above the two windows and the splayed geometry continued below the speaker but with glass looking into each room.??

cheers
JOhn

Pro Audio Mike · Post by **Pro Audio Mike** » Fri Nov 21, 2003 8:09 pm

Hi again!

If I say like this....
We are not very happy with this new facility, and why we dont want to do a major rebuilding of the rooms is that this is just a preliminary solution. Therefore we are looking for a smart way to handle the acoustics without spending a lot of money.

And yes...you are so right Steve...these speakers need at least 40-50 squaremetre to work in a proper way, and I'm not very glad to put them into this small room because I know I can't use them the way I want to. So that feels like shit...cause I know how these lovely speakers can sound like if you put them in a bigger room. We feed them now with a Bryston 4B SST 300W and uses the NordOst reference cables, so its a quite nice setup, but we should buy one more Bryston amplifier to get the more out of it.

I will sure watch out for that harmonic thing, thanks for mentioning it!!

Yes I'm in a hurry...I need to run the studio by next weekend so I will be working day and night to get things done.

I think I will do something like this:

* Hang "heavy" draperys at the back, in front of the window-wall.
* Put curtains at the studio and vocalbootwindow
* Build these small-standing-walls to put beside me and the speakers when mixing etc
* Put the listening position in a way where I can avoid that harmonic-thing
* Put the speakers on stand to get them in "earposition"
* Maybe put something lika Auralex basstraps at the corners of the frontwall?!

What do you guys think about that, did I forgot something important??
Not the best but maybe an acceptable solution for now?!

And yes...I must ask

what is "suffitmounted"??

Dont know if you are interested but I got some pics of the room if you want to see how it looks?

Have a great day guys!!
/Mike