Need help with my control room.
-
Big3rd
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:48 am
- Location: Detroit, MI
Need help with my control room.
The control room is in the all famous basement. Basically, I need help with the placement of my diffusers, bass traps, and etc. Tell me if you need additional images or info. Thanks in advance.
-
sharward
- Moderator
- Posts: 4281
- Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:08 pm
- Location: Sacramento, Northern California, USA
- Contact:
Are you really going to use QuietRock in your project? Have you priced that stuff? Read this before you buy. 
-
Big3rd
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:48 am
- Location: Detroit, MI
Hey man, sorry. I'm kinda new to acoustics, so I beg for your patience. Got some questions for you.
1. Can you explain every addition that you made in detail, especially the ceiling?
2. What is rockwool? How can I get some?
3. Is there a way I can put the 2x4 panels, on the south wall, against the wall instead of cutting off that section and it still be effective?
4. No diffusers?
1. Can you explain every addition that you made in detail, especially the ceiling?
2. What is rockwool? How can I get some?
3. Is there a way I can put the 2x4 panels, on the south wall, against the wall instead of cutting off that section and it still be effective?
4. No diffusers?
-
knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4062
One of the areas you missed was the part about editing your profile to include a location; without that, we can't recommend things that might not be available in your area.
Check the sketch I posted here, on June 7 -
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=27148
1. Can you explain every addition that you made in detail, especially the ceiling?
All room modes terminate in corners, especially tri-corners - so this is the best place for broadband absorption to even out the room response.
Beyond that, in a small room you do NOT want any reflections getting to your ears that are not delayed by at LEAST 20-22 milliseconds (These are called Early Reflections) - this means that any reflection path between speakers and your ears will need to be at least 20 feet LONGER than the direct path or your brain will SUM the results and you'll get wierd comb filtering results. This is where some frequencies add and others cancel, so it's kinda like running your music through a 300-band equalizer and adjusting the sliders so that every odd one is max, and every one in between is at minimum...
The treatments on the side walls and ceiling (and one function of the REAR absorber) are to attenuate these early reflections so your brain doesn't add them to the "mix" -
The front wall treatments are to dampen the peaks and nulls caused by Speaker Boundary Interference - the lower frequencies out of a speaker are not only radiated forward, they also "wrap around" the box and radiate to the rear - when these hit the wall and return to the listening position, they will ALSO have peaks and nulls due to phase cancellation, which is in turn caused by distance from the speaker to the wall.
The only way to get around this completely is to flush mount the speakers in angled walls (soffit mount) so the speaker is forced to ONLY radiate in the forward direction. If you don't do this, the next best thing is to put heavy absorption between speakers and the wall BEHIND the speakers, so these peaks and nulls are evened out.
The ceiling is too close to your ears (less than 20 feet DIFFERENCE in sound path length than the direct sound) so it too needs to be absorbed. This is what the "cloud" does.
2. What is rockwool? How can I get some?
Rockwool is semi-rigid, heavier than usual insulation that comes in "boards" - it's more dense than normal, so causes more restriction of air flow and makes sound "work harder" to get through. When I know where you live I can probably recommend a source.
3. Is there a way I can put the 2x4 panels, on the south wall, against the wall instead of cutting off that section and it still be effective?
Not as much; if you need the floor space, another way would be to build a portable absorber
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/download.php?id=2884
and place it against the wall when you're not mixing, and right behind the couch when you are. Besides helping early reflections, this will act as another bass trap. Your concrete walls being about as stiff as they can be, makes it necessary for a LOT of bass trapping in that room.
4. No diffusers?
Kind of a small room for diffusion; for typical diffusors, you want at least 10-12 feet between the back of your head and the diffusor or you get sound that's really sensitive to the position of your head (as in, fractions of an inch in some cases) - this also applies to anyone sitting on the couch. This stems from the same brain phenomenon as the explanation on Early Reflections above.
Now, if you can edit your profile to add your location I'll see what I can find... Steve
One of the areas you missed was the part about editing your profile to include a location; without that, we can't recommend things that might not be available in your area.
Check the sketch I posted here, on June 7 -
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=27148
1. Can you explain every addition that you made in detail, especially the ceiling?
All room modes terminate in corners, especially tri-corners - so this is the best place for broadband absorption to even out the room response.
Beyond that, in a small room you do NOT want any reflections getting to your ears that are not delayed by at LEAST 20-22 milliseconds (These are called Early Reflections) - this means that any reflection path between speakers and your ears will need to be at least 20 feet LONGER than the direct path or your brain will SUM the results and you'll get wierd comb filtering results. This is where some frequencies add and others cancel, so it's kinda like running your music through a 300-band equalizer and adjusting the sliders so that every odd one is max, and every one in between is at minimum...
The treatments on the side walls and ceiling (and one function of the REAR absorber) are to attenuate these early reflections so your brain doesn't add them to the "mix" -
The front wall treatments are to dampen the peaks and nulls caused by Speaker Boundary Interference - the lower frequencies out of a speaker are not only radiated forward, they also "wrap around" the box and radiate to the rear - when these hit the wall and return to the listening position, they will ALSO have peaks and nulls due to phase cancellation, which is in turn caused by distance from the speaker to the wall.
The only way to get around this completely is to flush mount the speakers in angled walls (soffit mount) so the speaker is forced to ONLY radiate in the forward direction. If you don't do this, the next best thing is to put heavy absorption between speakers and the wall BEHIND the speakers, so these peaks and nulls are evened out.
The ceiling is too close to your ears (less than 20 feet DIFFERENCE in sound path length than the direct sound) so it too needs to be absorbed. This is what the "cloud" does.
2. What is rockwool? How can I get some?
Rockwool is semi-rigid, heavier than usual insulation that comes in "boards" - it's more dense than normal, so causes more restriction of air flow and makes sound "work harder" to get through. When I know where you live I can probably recommend a source.
3. Is there a way I can put the 2x4 panels, on the south wall, against the wall instead of cutting off that section and it still be effective?
Not as much; if you need the floor space, another way would be to build a portable absorber
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/download.php?id=2884
and place it against the wall when you're not mixing, and right behind the couch when you are. Besides helping early reflections, this will act as another bass trap. Your concrete walls being about as stiff as they can be, makes it necessary for a LOT of bass trapping in that room.
4. No diffusers?
Kind of a small room for diffusion; for typical diffusors, you want at least 10-12 feet between the back of your head and the diffusor or you get sound that's really sensitive to the position of your head (as in, fractions of an inch in some cases) - this also applies to anyone sitting on the couch. This stems from the same brain phenomenon as the explanation on Early Reflections above.
Now, if you can edit your profile to add your location I'll see what I can find... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
-
Big3rd
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:48 am
- Location: Detroit, MI
Thanks Steve, really appreciate it. I'm in Detroit.
Also, shouldn't the ceiling be angled toward the back of the room or should it be completely parallel to the floor?
Oh yeah, shouldn't I put a floor to ceiling bass trap in the southwest corner, also? And could I put the panels against the wall in the back and add more to the southeast door/wall?
If I'm wrong, just forgive me. I'm just wondering, feel free to tell me to shut up
Also, shouldn't the ceiling be angled toward the back of the room or should it be completely parallel to the floor?
Oh yeah, shouldn't I put a floor to ceiling bass trap in the southwest corner, also? And could I put the panels against the wall in the back and add more to the southeast door/wall?
If I'm wrong, just forgive me. I'm just wondering, feel free to tell me to shut up
-
sharward
- Moderator
- Posts: 4281
- Joined: Mon Jan 03, 2005 4:08 pm
- Location: Sacramento, Northern California, USA
- Contact:
Ok. I'LL PUT MY LOCATION ON THE SIDE.-
Pennywizz6
- Posts: 65
- Joined: Tue Mar 01, 2005 11:21 am
- Location: Shakopee, MN, USA
-
knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
I know it seems like a lot of rules, but there are reasons for each one. Most are there so that John and I can TRY to keep up with the questions our membership have with the least amount of time spent.
Please keep in mind that although there is a Donation button, not that many people donate and the site costs money to run; John and I do all this (typically around 1000 hours a year) for FREE. So far, what few donations have come in don't begin to pay the costs of servers, etc...
So when a member asks "where can I get..." it's much easier to look at the side bar and say "oh, Detroit - let's see if SPI has an outlet there" than it is to post "hey, where are you" - then, you post back, "detroit", then I post back, check out ABC insulation company at 2345 Whatzit street - then, a month or so later, you post back and say "where can I get 1/2" laminated glass", and I say "where are you", etc.........
The other points in the "before you post" thread are just as important in most cases, and for the same reasons. There are times when I can't get to questions for several days, and when I do there are sometimes 20-30 members waiting for answers on anywhere from 2 to 12 or more questions. Without any background, there is no way in hell I can do that and keep my OWN life going.
So if you can "put yourself in my shoes", hopefully you'll understand that I can only do so much, and anything the membership can do to make it easier for me to help means that many more members who GET helped... Steve
Please keep in mind that although there is a Donation button, not that many people donate and the site costs money to run; John and I do all this (typically around 1000 hours a year) for FREE. So far, what few donations have come in don't begin to pay the costs of servers, etc...
So when a member asks "where can I get..." it's much easier to look at the side bar and say "oh, Detroit - let's see if SPI has an outlet there" than it is to post "hey, where are you" - then, you post back, "detroit", then I post back, check out ABC insulation company at 2345 Whatzit street - then, a month or so later, you post back and say "where can I get 1/2" laminated glass", and I say "where are you", etc.........
The other points in the "before you post" thread are just as important in most cases, and for the same reasons. There are times when I can't get to questions for several days, and when I do there are sometimes 20-30 members waiting for answers on anywhere from 2 to 12 or more questions. Without any background, there is no way in hell I can do that and keep my OWN life going.
So if you can "put yourself in my shoes", hopefully you'll understand that I can only do so much, and anything the membership can do to make it easier for me to help means that many more members who GET helped... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
-
Big3rd
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri Sep 09, 2005 6:48 am
- Location: Detroit, MI
Hey man, sorry for being so insensitive. Just kidding around anyway. 
I do realize that knowledge USUALLY costs, so don't worry about me. Sometimes I ask questions because I feel I have a specific case that hasn't already been touched on or because the lingo is a little over my head or because I just refuse to read through 30 pages of dialog to POSSIBLY get the answer to my question. I'm pretty sure you can understand all those instances, but I do feel where you're coming from.
Again, thanks for the help.
I do realize that knowledge USUALLY costs, so don't worry about me. Sometimes I ask questions because I feel I have a specific case that hasn't already been touched on or because the lingo is a little over my head or because I just refuse to read through 30 pages of dialog to POSSIBLY get the answer to my question. I'm pretty sure you can understand all those instances, but I do feel where you're coming from.
Again, thanks for the help.
-
knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
No prob; one nationwide chain is SPI, but the closest to you looks like Toledo
http://www.spi-co.com/servicecenterdire ... ?detail=52
Other than that, check in the yellow pages under insulation, call a bunch of places, and ask for 3 to 4 PCF rockwool, mineral wool, slag wool, or rigid fiberglass (all in the same density, 3-4 PCF)
Generally, the non-fiberglass versions will be cheaper; acoustically, they will work just as well... Steve
http://www.spi-co.com/servicecenterdire ... ?detail=52
Other than that, check in the yellow pages under insulation, call a bunch of places, and ask for 3 to 4 PCF rockwool, mineral wool, slag wool, or rigid fiberglass (all in the same density, 3-4 PCF)
Generally, the non-fiberglass versions will be cheaper; acoustically, they will work just as well... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...