2 car garage studio in the Bay Area, CA

[THELH]

Greetings everyone.

I’m green to construction in general and have read as much as possible before posting. I pretty much know I’m going to be grilled and hammered, but I read the following link http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3231 and have followed the prerequisites to the best of my ability. It took me a couple of hours to type this email because I tried to cover everything I could think of. There are some things I left out, I know I’ll get called on it, but I didn’t leave them out on purpose. It’s just so much info and I’m green, so none of my mishaps, failures, etc are a slight to you guys or meant to be offensive in any way.

Thanks for even looking at my post and thanks for any and all knowledge you’ve shared and continue to share as WE (I’m speaking for every single person here) appreciate the resources and knowledge you’re providing.

Ok, time to let me have it.

My location, the area and dimensions:

I live in the Bay Area, Ca and want to convert my garage into a studio. I have neighbors on both sides as well as neighbors across the street. One of the next door neighbors runs a daycare. The other next door neighbor is a family that recently moved in and they’ve been there for two years now. I inherited the home and have been here all my life, my neighbors know I make music and there has never been a complaint. Trust me, the daycare next door keeps up A LOT of noise, but “Ms.S” is cool, so it’s not an issue.

The garage is a two car garage and I want to build the studio in here without using the existing frame/structure. The existing walls (not the garage door) are 23.4ft by 15.2ft, have diagonal bracing and the ceiling is a raised tie with the bottom of the beams measuring in at 9 feet in height. The floor is concrete, there is a door leading into the home, a door leading outside the garage and a 12 inch vent/opening close to the door leading outside the garage.

I want to build the walls 6 inches away from the existing walls. In addition, I’m going to replace the garage door with a new wooden one or a rolling one. I want the room to be 17ft x 13ft and the ceilings to be 8 ½ ft high. The garage is actually a bit larger than this but I don’t want to mess with my washer, dryer and hot water heater so I figure the dimensions I’m proposing will be easier to do as they line up with certain aspects of the preexisting wall and part of the metal from the garage door.

I currently have a microphone booth that was made by an “experienced” individual and he built it to be portable. The booth is a little under 8 ft or right at 8ft. There are two long walls that are 8 feet, there is a wall that is five and a half feet that has plexiglass and the last two walls are four feet and one of them has a solid core door. So the booth basically looks like a diamond and it’s currently disassembled. The booth also has a fan that comes from the ceiling (it’s a square one not a ceiling fan).

My needs, what I’ll be tracking and how loud I’ll be:

1. I do a lot of outside work at other studios here in the Bay Area (small and large suites) and compose metal/rap for myself and hip hop, funk, r&b and blues for others. In addition, I also do a lot of vocal editing and mixing. I need something where I can track Instruments such as guitars (electric, bass and acoustic), drums (maybe), keyboards, wind instruments and vocals. I’ll mix what I’m familiar which is rock (metal, grunge, alt, etc), rap/hip hop, jazz, blues, gospel, r&b, jazz, folk, country and pop.

2. The room will be used every day/night but I’ll never crank things up too loud. I’ll mainly compose at night, with headphones on, and mix during the day. I plan to go every other day to give my ears a rest but my brother or people I’m comfortable with will have access when I’m not working on something. Between 80-90SPL is ideal for me without drums but if I do track them then 110db would be optimal in my book.

My goals, what I plan on using and materials I have:

1. I’d like to build and get things out of the spare bedroom I’m currently using. I’ve made enough money recently from clients (the last six months) so I’m ready to move things out the bedroom. I do have the option to totally clear this bedroom out and convert it, but I often have family coming to stay with me (when they are returning from school or down on their luck) so I turn the room over to them when they’re here but kick them out when it’s work time. There is a futon in the room, no bed, dressers or anything of that nature. It’s just all my gear, RTA creation station with computer and outboard gear and monitors.

2. The room will be a rectangle that is 17ft x 13ft and the ceilings will be 8ft high. I know the rectangle is a no no, as walls will be parallel, but at this point I feel it’s all an upgrade. If I can have a section where I can stick most of my gear (synths, drum machines, etc) and track from that, and mix in another section, that will be cool. If I need to keep everything in one room that is ok as well.

3. The walls will be 2x8 framing and I’ll be using 5/8 and 1/2 drywall (4x8) to make one leaf. I’ll then go between the stud space with Owens Corning Thermafiber SAFB (4 inch) and then I’ll go over that with another leaf of 5/8 and 1/2 drywall. I’ll either set the booth up once the frame is built or I’ll set it up after the walls are up.

4. I’ll do the ceilings the same way as the walls.

5. There will be a solid core door leading into the studio and for air and ventilation I will use a window AC unit for 8k or 10k BTU’s. I have not accounted for air ducts/ventilation.

6. Electrical wiring can be built into the new room or I can have sections of the wall cut so it leads out of the studio and into the outlet (which is 220) and run things from there. I saw the following links from Soundman2020:
http://www.calcentron.com/Pages/fram-tr ... aceway.htm
http://www.legrand.us/wire-cable-manage ... eways.aspx

7. I plan on using track lighting to illuminate the room.

8. I was going to build a booth years ago but never did so I have the following materials: 14 corner beads, 7 2x8’s, 34 sq feet of wood flooring, 1 pack of Owens Corning Thermafiber SAFB (4 inch) and 16 pieces of drywall/sheetrock (8 5/8 pieces and 8 ½ pieces).

What I think is needed and pricing of materials:

1. INSULATION: 8 bags of Thermafiber SAFB will be required and covers apprx 730sq ft which are the walls and ceiling. ($720 with tax and delivery).

2. FRAME and STUDS: 84 2x8’s. 22 2x8 needed for 13ft walls, 32 2x8 needed for 17ft walls,10 2x8 needed for bottom frame, 10 2x8 needed for ceiling frame and 10 2x8 needed for stud fills. ($350 with tax and delivery).

3. FLOORING: Apprx 221sq ft needed for wood floor. 221sq feet of pad. ($1,200 with tax and delivery).

4. WALLS: 60 pieces of drywall (4x8). Each 17ft wall will require 8 5/8 and 8 1/2 pieces of sheetrock/drywall. Each 13ft will require 6 5/8 and 6 1/2 pieces of sheetrock/drywall. The ceiling will require 12 5/8 and 12 1/2 pieces of sheetrock/drywall. ($700 with tax and delivery).
Each wall will require an additional foot so I will 2 5/8 and 2 1/2 pieces of sheetrock/drywall. The ceiling will require 2 5/8 and 2 1/2 pieces of sheetrock/drywall. (These are included in the pricing above).

5. AC UNIT: $250.

6. TRACK LIGHTING: $300

7. ELECTRICAL BOX/WIRING: $200

8. SOLID CORE DOOR: $300.

9. CORNER BEADS: $100.

10. JOINT COMPOUND: $200.

11. SHEETROCK NAILS/SCREWS: $50.

Total for needed materials: $4,370. Budget for what is listed $5,000.

Labor has not been included and will depend on if this is a DIY or if I hire someone to do it. My construction experience is limited to Lego and Zaks building sets, which means, I have no experience. If it’s a DIY I’ll mainly need someone to do the ceilings as I truly don’t know how they are going to be done. I’ll have them do one or two walls, watch, record, take notes and then I’ll be able to do the rest. I’ll also stuff all the walls with insulation and I have two electricians who can do the wiring. The permits will cost apprx $500 (based on the information I input in my cities website) and has not been included.
I already have a ton of aurelex foam and will worry about diffusers and bass traps once the room is built.

Alternatives:

If the above sounds unreasonable then I’ll simply set the booth up in the garage and run snakes from the room, to the garage and to the booth. I’ll then reconsider turning the spare bedroom where all the gear is into a more productive environment. The problem is there is a big window in the room and there are two doors. In addition to this, the upstairs gets really hot and there is no AC, but I do have central heating and it also has a fan. So I could just take the money, treat the room and go from there.

Questions:

1. Should I place the booth so the two walls that form a point are against a wall or should I place it in a corner? If in a corner, what corner should I place the booth?

2. Should I section off the booth and build a wall at the 9ft mark and use the rest as my control room or should I just set everything up in front of the mic booth’s window?

3. Am I doing the leafs wrong? If I have the concept down do I need to go 5/8, 1/2, insulation, 1/2 and 5/8? How about 5/8, 5/8, insulation, 1/2 and 1/2?

[Soundman2020]

Hi there THELH, and welcome!

I’m green to construction in general and have read as much as possible before posting. I pretty much know I’m going to be grilled and hammered,

We'll try to keep the grill on the lowest setting, and we'll use a really small hammer the first time, I promise!

it took me a couple of hours to type this email because I tried to cover everything I could think of.

As it says in the link you found, we'll put as much effort into our replies as you put into your posts. And you obviously put a lot of effort into yours! So here goes...

One of the next door neighbors runs a daycare.

Ouch! Sleeping babies a few feet away implies a need for decent isolation, to ensure they stay sleeping... and on the other hand, when they are NOT asleep, screaming brats a few feet away also implies a need for decent isolation . . .

The garage is a two car garage and I want to build the studio in here without using the existing frame/structure

By that, I assume you mean that you don't want to use JUST the existing structure, but rather want to build a new, inner-leaf room within that existing outer-leaf. Is that it? Or do you mean that you want to demolish the existing walls and re-build them as well?

the ceiling is a raised tie with the bottom of the beams measuring in at 9 feet in height.

Nice! It's good to have decent height, and you do. 9 feet clearance from floor to joists is good.

I want to build the walls 6 inches away from the existing walls.

Why? I mean, why 6", and not 5" or 7"? Did you do the math? Low grill, small hammer)

In addition, I’m going to replace the garage door with a new wooden one or a rolling one.

Why? The garage door is part of your outer leaf, so it needs to be sealed air-tight and have enough mass on it, to provide the isolation that you need to keep those babies asleep, or not go nuts with their shrieks....

I want the room to be 17ft x 13ft and the ceilings to be 8 ½ ft high.

Why? Did you check that with a room mode calculator, to make sure it is a sensible ratio? Have you checked in detail? Use one of these Room Ratio calculators to figure out the best dimensions for your room:

http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm

http://amroc.andymel.eu/

Both of those are very good, and will help you to decide how best to build your room. They give you tons of information that is really useful to help figure out the best dimensions.

I figure the dimensions I’m proposing will be easier to do as they line up with certain aspects of the preexisting wall and part of the metal from the garage door.

Your inner-leaf wall does not need to line up with any aspect of the outer-leaf. The inner-leaf is completely independent, self-supporting, and has no physical contact with the outer leaf. The decisions on where to put it and what size to make it should be purely acoustical.

I need something where I can track Instruments such as guitars (electric, bass and acoustic), drums (maybe), keyboards, wind instruments and vocals.

Those are all loud, especially the drums. Playing drums a few feet from sleeping kids.... = high isolation.

2. The room will be used every day/night but I’ll never crank things up too loud.

It's hard to "crank down" the drum kit! It's going to be loud, even when you have a gentle drummer who plays quietly... and that's fine for R&B, blues, jazz, maybe even country, but the words "quiet" and "gentle" don't go very well with "drums" for pop, rock, metal, grunge, alt, rap, and hip-hop!

Between 80-90SPL is ideal for me without drums but if I do track them then 110db would be optimal in my book

Drums played hard, such as for for rock, metal, grunge, etc. can easily get over 115 dB. 118 would be a good estimate. Add in heavy bass, electrics, percussion, etc... you could be hitting 120 in there.

I know the rectangle is a no no, as walls will be parallel,

That's actually a myth. There's no problem with having parallel walls if you want them. There are only three valid reasons for wanting to splay your walls, so they are not parallel: 1) If you are building a control room that follows the RFZ concept, or the NER concept, or the CID concept, as they specifically require some walls at certain angles, in order to create the reflection free zone around the mix position. 2) Because you want to get rid of flutter echo. 3) Because they look cool! Number two (flutter echo) is usually what people are worried about when they splay their walls, but flutter echo can easily be dealt with in other ways, much more simply, and cheaper, and you would need to splay your walls by at least 12° to get rid of flutter echo, which wastes a LOT of space....

So it's perfectly fine for you to make your room with parallel walls, if you don't have a need for reason #1 or reason #3, and as long as you remember to treat the room accordingly for reason #2.

If I can have a section where I can stick most of my gear (synths, drum machines, etc) and track from that, and mix in another section, that will be cool. If I need to keep everything in one room that is ok as well.

I would suggest doing a two-room studio, with one room being the control room (that has certain very specific acoustic needs), and the other room being your "live room" or tracking room, that has very different acoustic needs.

3. The walls will be 2x8 framing

WHY??? That's rather large dimension, rather expensive, and no benefit. 2x4 would be fine, a lot cheaper, easier to cut, easier to handle, easier to work with, faster, etc.

I’ll be using 5/8 and 1/2 drywall (4x8) to make one leaf.

Another myth. There's no need to use two different thicknesses of drywall. You get maximum isolation when you have maximum mass, and since 5/8" drywall has much more mass than 1/2" drywall, it's better to go with two layers of 5/8.

I’ll then go between the stud space with Owens Corning Thermafiber SAFB (4 inch)

I'd suggest using Owens Corning OC-703. That's about the nest stuff you can get for studios. But why only 4"? If you have 2x8 studs, then there's 7 1/4" air gap in there, so why not go with one layer of 4" and one layer of 3" to almost completely fill the air cavity?

and then I’ll go over that with another leaf of 5/8 and 1/2 drywall.

... and you would have a three-leaf wall! Because the existing wall of the garage is your outer leaf, whether you like it or not. So you'd be adding two more leaves to that, and those two leaves would be fully coupled, since you do not have any plan to decouple them from the studs. This is not a good system for isolating drums with sleeping babies across the street... In fact, it's not a good system at all. 3-leaf systems do not isolate well in the low frequencies (kick, toms, snare, bass, electrics)

I’ll either set the booth up once the frame is built or I’ll set it up after the walls are up.

If you are planning to put the booth inside your new structure, then you'd end up with a 4-leaf or even a 5-leaf system. That can potentially have very poor isolation even in the lower mid range, because the resonant frequency of such a system is very high.

5. There will be a solid core door leading into the studio

Solid core is good, but just a single door will not provide good isolation. You should really have two doors, back to back, one on the outer leaf, the other in the inner leaf.

and for air and ventilation I will use a window AC unit for 8k or 10k BTU’s.

Window units are VERY noisy, and they don't provide much ventilation at all. You would not be able to record or mix while that unit is running due to the noise, and you will also not be able to record and mix when it is NOT running, as there would be no fresh air, and no cooling, and no humidity control. This is not a good plan.

I have not accounted for air ducts/ventilation.

Then how do you plan to breathe? Each of your leaves must be sealed airtight. So you will have two airtight seals around you. No air can get in or out. How will you breathe?

3. FLOORING: Apprx 221sq ft needed for wood floor. 221sq feet of pad. ($1,200 with tax and delivery).

You already have a really, really good floor!! The concrete slab is about the best possible floor for a studio. Don't spend your money on things you don't need.

I have no experience. If it’s a DIY I’ll mainly need someone to do the ceilings as I truly don’t know how they are going to be done. I’ll have them do one or two walls, watch, record, take notes and then I’ll be able to do the rest.

I'd suggest that it would be much better for you to take a course in basic framing. Safer too. Learn properly, taught by professionals. Sometimes places like Home Depot offer such courses, or you can find one locally.

I already have a ton of aurelex foam and will worry about diffusers and bass traps once the room is built

Depending on the size of your control room, diffusers may not even be possible: you need a certain minimum distance between a diffuser and your ears at the mix position, so the room has to be large enough to allow that. It's also better to design the acoustics along with the room, because they go together.

If the above sounds unreasonable then I’ll simply set the booth up in the garage and run snakes from the room, to the garage and to the booth.

That's probably a better idea, yes. With your control room right nest to it, in the garage!

Questions:
1. Should I place the booth so the two walls that form a point are against a wall or should I place it in a corner? If in a corner, what corner should I place the booth?
2. Should I section off the booth and build a wall at the 9ft mark and use the rest as my control room or should I just set everything up in front of the mic booth’s window?
3. Am I doing the leafs wrong? If I have the concept down do I need to go 5/8, 1/2, insulation, 1/2 and 5/8? How about 5/8, 5/8, insulation, 1/2 and 1/2?

To answer those, I'd suggest that you buy and carefully read two books: "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest (that's sort of the Bible for acoustics), and "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros", by Rod Gervais. You really need to read those completely before designing your place. They will give you the basis for understanding the comments I made above, and for seeing why your current approach is not a very good one. I know you put a LOT of thought into this already, and it's disappointing when someone tells that what you did is not so good. But consider it as part of the learning experience: It takes time to learn this stuff, because designing and building a studio is NOT easy. There's many videos on YouTube about people who think they are building wonderful places, but are only really wasting their money and time. You are clearly a lot smarter, because you are here on the forum, and wanting to learn! So I'd suggest that you buy those books, read them, them modify your design to work better. It's not a terrible design, but it won't do what you are wanting it to do, and it needs some re-design to make it work.


- Stuart -

[THELH]

First, I'd like to thank you Soundman2020 for the polite, prompt and professional response. Please note that I will not take anything you say as a grain of salt and will look into every bit of information you've provided. So, if I do ask questions, which I will, it's because I need more of an ELI5 ("Explain Like I'm Five) or because I actually want to learn more about what I'm asking. And yes, you've been keeping the grill on the lowest setting and the small hammer doesn't hurt too much!

Ouch! Sleeping babies a few feet away implies a need for decent isolation, to ensure they stay sleeping... and on the other hand, when they are NOT asleep, screaming brats a few feet away also implies a need for decent isolation . . .

Yes, we need to address both of those issues, lol.

By that, I assume you mean that you don't want to use JUST the existing structure, but rather want to build a new, inner-leaf room within that existing outer-leaf. Is that it? Or do you mean that you want to demolish the existing walls and re-build them as well?

Yes, I want to build a new inner-leaf room within the existing outer leaf. What I didn't want to do was use the garage and the walls as part of the room. I want to create an inner room within the garage. I was told to not use the garage as part of the structure because the bass would be felt in the structure.

Why? I mean, why 6", and not 5" or 7"? Did you do the math? Low grill, small hammer)

Hey at least it's not 400 degrees or a jack hammer! I'll be honest with you, that number was simply based on me trying to get as much out of the space as I could. There was no math or science involved. Measurements were taken and I simply thought it would be enough to not be too close to the existing walls and garage.

Why? The garage door is part of your outer leaf, so it needs to be sealed air-tight and have enough mass on it, to provide the isolation that you need to keep those babies asleep, or not go nuts with their shrieks....

I wanted to do this for several reasons. One because I need a new garage door, lol. The second is I didn't consider the garage door as part of the leaf. I only considered what I wanted built to be of importance and did not consider using it to provide isolation. I was of the impression that as long that I built the room inside the garage, and didn't use the garage for any of the isolation, that I would be ok.

Why? Did you check that with a room mode calculator, to make sure it is a sensible ratio? Have you checked in detail? Use one of these Room Ratio calculators to figure out the best dimensions for your room:
http://www.bobgolds.com/Mode/RoomModes.htm
http://amroc.andymel.eu/
Both of those are very good, and will help you to decide how best to build your room. They give you tons of information that is really useful to help figure out the best dimensions.

Thanks for these. I just input the dimensions I had in mind and a ton of info popped up. The second link explains things a little bit more as you can run your mouse over it and an explanation is provided. However, I still need an ELI5 for these two pages so if you can point me in the right direction to what I need to read on this site (that easily explains it) or if the books you suggested easily explains it, then I'm all for it. Again, I don't understand the science and math behind all of this. Like many people, I just want to make the music but now since I'm making a bigger investment, it's time that I learn these things.

Your inner-leaf wall does not need to line up with any aspect of the outer-leaf. The inner-leaf is completely independent, self-supporting, and has no physical contact with the outer leaf. The decisions on where to put it and what size to make it should be purely acoustical

.

And my decisions aren't. I looked at the garage, measured it, took into account that I want to keep part of it intact (because there is a hot water heater in there) so I figured the best bet to get most square footage would be to do it the way I did.

Those are all loud, especially the drums. Playing drums a few feet from sleeping kids.... = high isolation. It's hard to "crank down" the drum kit! It's going to be loud, even when you have a gentle drummer who plays quietly... and that's fine for R&B, blues, jazz, maybe even country, but the words "quiet" and "gentle" don't go very well with "drums" for pop, rock, metal, grunge, alt, rap, and hip-hop! Drums played hard, such as for for rock, metal, grunge, etc. can easily get over 115 dB. 118 would be a good estimate. Add in heavy bass, electrics, percussion, etc... you could be hitting 120 in there.

It would be cool if I could track the drums, but if I can't I can continue to use the session drummer I have in SF that has his own drum room. I would want to track bands, as I've done that in the larger suites, but if I have to limit things or stick to what I track at home on a consistent basis then so be it.

That's actually a myth. There's no problem with having parallel walls if you want them. There are only three valid reasons for wanting to splay your walls, so they are not parallel: 1) If you are building a control room that follows the RFZ concept, or the NER concept, or the CID concept, as they specifically require some walls at certain angles, in order to create the reflection free zone around the mix position. 2) Because you want to get rid of flutter echo. 3) Because they look cool! Number two (flutter echo) is usually what people are worried about when they splay their walls, but flutter echo can easily be dealt with in other ways, much more simply, and cheaper, and you would need to splay your walls by at least 12° to get rid of flutter echo, which wastes a LOT of space....

I don't even know what those things meant until you typed them out, I googled them and saw you being helpful once again:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =1&t=20959

And no, I have no reason for #1 and #3 so #2 would be the main focus.

I would suggest doing a two-room studio, with one room being the control room (that has certain very specific acoustic needs), and the other room being your "live room" or tracking room, that has very different acoustic needs.

That's what I figured as well after thinking about things for a bit. I really do want two separate rooms.

WHY??? That's rather large dimension, rather expensive, and no benefit. 2x4 would be fine, a lot cheaper, easier to cut, easier to handle, easier to work with, faster, etc.

My ignorance and lack of experience showing once again. I meant 2x4 that are 8 feet in length, lol.

Another myth. There's no need to use two different thicknesses of drywall. You get maximum isolation when you have maximum mass, and since 5/8" drywall has much more mass than 1/2" drywall, it's better to go with two layers of 5/8.

Got it, so two layers of 5/8. I can actually get a deal on 60, 12 long sheets that are 5/8. But then there will be a lot of cutting at some point.

I'd suggest using Owens Corning OC-703. That's about the nest stuff you can get for studios. But why only 4"? If you have 2x8 studs, then there's 7 1/4" air gap in there, so why not go with one layer of 4" and one layer of 3" to almost completely fill the air cavity?

Like I explained earlier I meant 2x4 that were 8 feet in length. With me using the 703, I'd have to double up because each is 2 inches and I'm filling a four inch cavity correct?

... and you would have a three-leaf wall! Because the existing wall of the garage is your outer leaf, whether you like it or not. So you'd be adding two more leaves to that, and those two leaves would be fully coupled, since you do not have any plan to decouple them from the studs. This is not a good system for isolating drums with sleeping babies across the street... In fact, it's not a good system at all. 3-leaf systems do not isolate well in the low frequencies (kick, toms, snare, bass, electrics)

Ok, so even if I'm not using the garage door as part of the design it all still comes into play? Man, this stuff is mind boggling but at least I'm finding out now. Again, I was under the impression that I needed to build a room, with two slabs of sheetrock/drywall to make my walls, and that would be it.

If you are planning to put the booth inside your new structure, then you'd end up with a 4-leaf or even a 5-leaf system. That can potentially have very poor isolation even in the lower mid range, because the resonant frequency of such a system is very high.

Ok, so if I do this then keep the booth separate as the booth is it's own structure, with it's own leafs and because of this it will have an impact on the isolating the lower mid range.

Solid core is good, but just a single door will not provide good isolation. You should really have two doors, back to back, one on the outer leaf, the other in the inner leaf.

So two doors? One connected to the first leaf that is comprised of two 5/8 pieces and another door connected to the other two 5/8 pieces?

Window units are VERY noisy, and they don't provide much ventilation at all. You would not be able to record or mix while that unit is running due to the noise, and you will also not be able to record and mix when it is NOT running, as there would be no fresh air, and no cooling, and no humidity control. This is not a good plan.

Ok, so I'll scratch that off the list.

Then how do you plan to breathe? Each of your leaves must be sealed airtight. So you will have two airtight seals around you. No air can get in or out. How will you breathe?

I didn't take that into account. I mean I know I need it, but I didn't do the proper research to see how ducts were made, how much they would cost, how to be installed, etc.

I'd suggest that it would be much better for you to take a course in basic framing. Safer too. Learn properly, taught by professionals. Sometimes places like Home Depot offer such courses, or you can find one locally.

We have a Lowe's and Home Depot here and there are a lot of carpenters and contractors here. If I have to go the DIY route I'll have that under my belt. I might take a course anyway just so I can be able to convey what I want to whoever builds the room if I decide to have it built.

Depending on the size of your control room, diffusers may not even be possible: you need a certain minimum distance between a diffuser and your ears at the mix position, so the room has to be large enough to allow that. It's also better to design the acoustics along with the room, because they go together.

Got it, so design with acoustics in mind and be exact as possible because everything comes into play. Aside from the books you suggested, is there anything I can read right now that will help me decide if I need difussers or do I need to wait until I have the control room dimensions dialed in?

That's probably a better idea, yes. With your control room right nest to it, in the garage!

So you're saying if I do this to have the control room in the garage with the booth next to it or to convert the bedroom (which is an option) and run snakes from the bedroom and to the garage and into the booth?

To answer those, I'd suggest that you buy and carefully read two books: "Master Handbook of Acoustics" by F. Alton Everest (that's sort of the Bible for acoustics), and "Home Recording Studio: Build it Like the Pros", by Rod Gervais. You really need to read those completely before designing your place. They will give you the basis for understanding the comments I made above, and for seeing why your current approach is not a very good one. I know you put a LOT of thought into this already, and it's disappointing when someone tells that what you did is not so good. But consider it as part of the learning experience: It takes time to learn this stuff, because designing and building a studio is NOT easy. There's many videos on YouTube about people who think they are building wonderful places, but are only really wasting their money and time. You are clearly a lot smarter, because you are here on the forum, and wanting to learn! So I'd suggest that you buy those books, read them, them modify your design to work better. It's not a terrible design, but it won't do what you are wanting it to do, and it needs some re-design to make it work.

First, thanks for telling me which books I need to read. Also, my local libraries don't have them so I'll go ahead and place an order via Amazon. I DO consider this as a learning lesson which is why I have no issue with what you're telling me or you telling me the approach is wrong.You're offering constructive criticism and showing me how to tighten things up which will save me money and heartache at the end of the day. So nope, no need for me to be upset. Hell you didn't even have to reply!!!

So, based on your reply I need to build with acoustics in mind, need to address ventilation, need to focus on a two leaf system instead of 3 or more leaves, should revisit the room dimensions, should keep the mic booth separate from the control room, should use my concrete floors instead of wood flooring and should read the two books you suggested. Did I miss anything?

In closing, once again thanks for helping me out here.

[Soundman2020]

I want to build a new inner-leaf room within the existing outer leaf. What I didn't want to do was use the garage and the walls as part of the room.

You have no choice, actually! Because of the way sound waves behave. If you build a new room within the garage, then you have automatically made the garage part of the system, and there's nothing you can do about that. The simple fact of having the garage walls, then an air gap, then the walls of the inner room, has created a resonant acoustic system. Technically, this is a "Mass-Spring-Mass" system, where the garage wall is one "mass", the wall of the new room is the other "mass", and the air in between them is the "spring". This is also often referred to as a "Mass-Air-Mass" system, for the same reason: the air is a spring. Maybe for us, as people, air doesn't seem very "springy" at all, but for sound waves it sure is. If you have a bicycle pump, put your finger over the outlet hole and pump the handle: You'll see that in reality air is VERY springy....

So it is actually impossible to NOT use your garage walls as part of the system: there's no choice here. If you build another room inside the garage, then the garage is part of the acoustic system, simply because the "air-spring" couples the to rooms together.

I was told to not use the garage as part of the structure because the bass would be felt in the structure.

You were told wrong. Whoever told yo that, is someone who can safely be ignore in the future, because they don't have much understanding of acoustics or sound. They ONLY reason why your music would ever get into the building structure, is if you allow a physical, mechanical connection between one of your musical instruments and part of the structure. For example, if you set up your bass amplifier/speaker pushed up hard against one of the studs of the garage wall, and play like that, the vibrations in the amp cabinet will pass directly into the wood studs, and then the sound will be in the structure. That actually is a common problem in studios, especially with drum kits, amps, and tapping-feet on top of wooden floors, so part of studio design is ensuring that this does NOT happen. That type of sound transmission is known as "flanking", and when studio designers are working out the basics of the studio, a lot of what they do is relate to preventing flanking.

You might think that the sound waves in the air would also make the studs vibrate, even if the amp is not pressed up tight against the stud, but that's not really true. Yes, a very small amount of sound might get in like that, but it's not worth worrying about due to the technical term called "interface impedance mismatch". Basically that means that solid things (like speaker cabinets) are very good at transferring vibration to other solid things (such as studs), but that liquid things (such as water) and gassy things (such as air) are pretty lousy at transferring vibrations into solid things. Vibrations only transfer well is the impedance of the two "things" is similar, but the impedance of air is very, very different form the impedance of solid things. This is why there's a cone-shaped wave-guide around the tweeter on your speakers: because the impedance of the tweeter cone is very different from the impedance of the air that it is trying to move, and that "cone-shaped wave-guide" thing is very carefully designed to match the impedance between the cone and the air. That's why your tweeter sounds great when it is mounted in the box, but if you take it out and just have it in the air, you can hardly hear it at all, and it sounds terrible! Because there is no impedance match, so the transfer of energy is very inefficient.

So, to get back to the point: the sound waves in the air are not very good at transferring their vibrations into solid objects. Hence, the sounds inside your room will not "get into the garage structure" easily. They only way that can happen, is if you let it, but part of the process of designing a studio properly, is to prevent that, by ensuring that there is a very, very large impedance mismatch: Or in other words, by eliminating all "flanking paths". Paths that sound could take to get into the structure.

Perhaps the person who told you this once saw a garage that had been very badly converted into a studio, and the bass really did get into the structure, but the only reason that happened is because it was designed badly, and the flanking paths were not eliminated.

I'll be honest with you, that number was simply based on me trying to get as much out of the space as I could. There was no math or science involved. Measurements were taken and I simply thought it would be enough to not be too close to the existing walls and garage.

That's sort of what I suspected, and hence, the reason for the question! The problem here is that acoustics IS math, and it IS science, and there's no way around that. So if you basically guess at a number, or choose one because you like it, then you are automatically setting up a mathematical situation, without even realizing it, and without understanding the consequences. The math and science will still be there, and the equations will still work, and you'll still get the calculated result, even if you never did the math! It works because it is the physical nature of the universe, so whatever number you choose will have consequence that are determined by that physical nature of the universe, even if you don't realize it.

So, going back to the basic issue: if you have a "Mass-Air-Mass" system, such as your garage wall, an empty air space, then your inner-leaf wall, that is a resonant system, and the equation that describes it is this:

MSM-equation.jpg

It doesn't matter if you understand the equation or not: your system will ALWAYS resonate at the frequency described by that equation, based on the numbers that you chose. One of those numbers, is the distance between the two leaves! So choosing a distance of 4", or 5", or 6" or 9" or whatever, will directly effect the resonant frequency of your system, even if you don't realize it, and even if you never saw that equation before. It's a physical fact due to the nature of the universe: That's the frequency that any MSM wall will resonate at, anywhere in the universe.

There's a simpler version that describes only how walls resonate on planet Earth, and that's a lot more use. It goes like this:

Fc=c[(m1+m2)/(m1m2d)]^.5

where:

Fc = Resonance frequency (Hz)
c = constant (60 for empty gaps and 43 for with insulation)
m1 = mass of first leaf (kg/m^2)
m2 = mass of second leaf (kg/m^2)
d = distance between the leaves (m)

That's a lot easier to understand, and you can simply "plug in" your own numbers there, to figure out what the resonant frequency will be.

Why does that matter? Why should you even be bothered with figuring out the resonant frequency of your wall? It matters greatly, because if you play a note that happens to the same frequency as that, then the wall does not isolate at all! That note will go straight through, as if the wall wasn't even there. The babies will wake up and cry, the cops will come knocking on your door, and shut you down. So it's very important.

But it's worse than that: at the resonant frequency, no only does your wall NOT isolate, it can actually amplify the sound, making it even louder on the outside. So babies two blocks over also wake up and cry every time you hit that note...

But it's actually even worse than that! Because it's not just at the one single frequency where the wall fails to stop the sound, and actually amplifies it: that happens to ALL frequencies within about half an octave either side of the resonant frequency. So babies six blocks over cry, for every note you play on your bass....

As you can see, it's sort of important to get this right, and this is very likely what happened to the guy who thought that "the bass got into the structure" of his garage. In reality, the bass never did get into the structure: he just never did the math, and his entire BUILDING resonated at bass frequencies... due to his ignorance.

One of the basic rules of isolation design for studios is that you MUST design your walls such that the resonant frequency is at least an octave below the lowest frequency that you need to isolate. So if you might record six-string bass in your place, the lowest note on a six string bass is around 32 Hz, so your wall needs to have a resonant frequency no higher than 16 Hz....

So you need to do the math, and check if your 6" number is any good here!

The second is I didn't consider the garage door as part of the leaf

You might not have considered that it is a leaf, but that doesn't change the fact that it really is a leaf! Sound waves don't care if you understand how they work or not. They will still behave the exact same way, regardless of whether or not you know the math that describes them. So they will still see your garage door as a leaf, even if you don't see it that way...

I was of the impression that as long that I built the room inside the garage, and didn't use the garage for any of the isolation, that I would be ok

Well, I've already shown why that assumption is wrong, so I won't comment further on that, other than to say that every part of your garage is also a part of your studio, like it or not.

However, I still need an ELI5 for these two pages so if you can point me in the right direction to what I need to read on this site (that easily explains it) or if the books you suggested easily explains it, then I'm all for it.

The books certainly do explain it, and you really do need to know it.

So I'll give you a very, very brief introduction to room modes:

Room ratios is whole major subject in studio design. It works like this: The walls of your studio create natural resonances in the air space between them, inside the room. This is totally different form the resonance I mentioned above, of the walls themselves: this is all about what happens INSIDE the room, not what happens inside the walls. Two totally different things. So you have resonant waves inside the room. We call those "standing waves" or "room modes". Those "modes" (resonances) occur at very specific frequencies that are directly related to the distances between the walls. They are called "standing waves" because they appear to be stationary inside the room: they are not REALLY stationary, since the energy is still moving through the room. But the pressure peaks and nulls always fall at the exact same points in the room each time the wave energy passes, so the "wave" seems to be fixed, static, and unmoving inside the room. If you play a pure tone that happens to be at the exact frequency of one of the "modes", then you can physically walk around inside the room and experience the "standing" nature of the wave: you will hear that tone grossly exaggerated at some points in the room, greatly amplified, while at other points it will sound normal, and at yet other points it will practically disappear: you won't be able to hear it at all, or you hear it but greatly attenuated, very soft.

The peaks and nulls fall at different places in the room for different frequencies. So the spot in the room where one mode was deafening might turn out to be the null for a different node.

Conversely, if you have a mode (standing wave) that forms at a specific frequency, then changing to a slightly different frequency might show no mode at all: for example, if a tone of exactly 73 Hz creates a standing wave that is clearly identifiable as you walk around the room, with major nulls and peaks, then a tone of 76 Hz might show no modes at all: it sounds the same at all points in the room. Because there are no natural resonances, no "room modes" associated with that frequency.

That's the problem. A BIG problem.

Of course, you don't want that to happen in a control room, because it implies that you would hear different things at different places in the room, for any give song! At some places in the room, some bass notes would be overwhelming, while at other places the same notes would be lost. As you can imagine, if you happen to have your mix position (your ears) located at such a point in the room, you'd never be able to mix anything well, as you would not be hearing what the music REALLY sounds like: you would be hearing the way the room "colors" that sound instead. As you subconsciously compensate for the room modes while you are mixing, you could end up with a song that sounds great in that room at the mix position:the best ever! But it would sound terrible when you payed it at any other location, such as in your car, on your iPhone, in your house, on the radio, at a club, in a church, etc. Your mix would not "translate".

OK, so now I have painted the scary-ugly "modes are terrible monsters that eat your mixes" picture. Now lets look at that a bit more in depth, to get the real picture.

So let's go back to thinking about those room modes (also called "eigenmodes" sometimes): remember I said that they occur are very specific frequencies, and they are very narrow? This implies that if you played an E on your bass guitar, it might trigger a massive modal resonance, but then you play either a D or an F and there is no mode, so they sound normal. Clearly, that's a bad situation. But what if there was a room mode at every single frequency? What if there was a mode for E, a different mode for D and yet another one for F? In that case, there would be no problem, since all notes would still sound the same! Each note would trigger its own mode, and things would be happy again. If there were modes for every single frequency on the spectrum, and they all sounded the same, then you could mix in there with no problems!

And that's exactly what happens at higher frequencies. Just not at low frequencies. Because of "wavelength"

It works like this: remember I said that modes are related to the distance between walls? It's a very simple relationship. Renumber I said the waves are "standing" because the peaks and nulls occur at the same spot in the room? In simple terms, for every frequency where a wave fits in exactly between two walls, then there will be a standing wave. And also for exactly twice that frequency, since two wavelengths of that note will now fit. And the same for three times that frequency, since three full waves will now fit in between the same walls. Etc. All the way up the scale.

So if you have a room mode at 98 Hz in your room, then you will also have modes at 196 Hz (double), 294 (triple), 392 (x4), 490(x5), 588(x6), 686(x7) etc., all the way up. If the very next mode in your room happened to be at 131 Hz, then there would also be modes at 262 Hz(x2), 393(x3), 524(x4), 655(x5), etc.

That's terrible, right? There must be thousands of modes at higher frequencies!!! That must be awful!

Actually, no. That's a GOOD thing. You WANT lots of modes, for the reasons I gave above: If you have many modes for each note on the scale, then the room sounds the same for ALL notes, which is what you want. It's good, not bad.

But now let's use a bit of math and common sense here, to see what the real problem is.

If your room has a mode at 98Hz, and the next mode is at 131 Hz, that's a difference of 32%! 98 Hz is a "G2". So you have a mode for "G2". but your very next mode is a "C3" at 131Hz. That's five notes higher on the scale: your modes completely skip over G2#, A2, A2#, and B2. No modes for them! So those four notes in the middle sound perfectly normal in your room, but the G2 and C3 are loud and long.

However, move up a couple of octaves: ...

There's a harmonic of your 98Hz mode at 588 Hz, and there's a harmonic of your 131 Hz mode at 524 Hz. 524 Hz is C5 on the musical scale, and 588 Hz is a D5. They are only two notes apart!

Go up a bit more, and we have one mode at 655 and another at 686. 655 is an E5, and 686 is an F5. they are adjacent notes. Nothing in between! We have what we want: a mode for every note.

The further up you go, the closer the spacing is. In fact, as you move up the scale even higher, you find several modes for each note. Wonderful!

So at high frequencies, there is no problem: plenty of modes to go around and keep the music sounding good.

The problem is at low frequencies, where the modes are few and far between.

The reason there are few modes at low frequencies is very simple: wavelengths are very long compared to the size of the room. At 20 Hz (the lower limit of the audible spectrum, and also E0 on the organ keyboard), the wavelength is over 56 feet! So your room would have to be 56 feet long in order to have a mode for 20 Hz.

Actually, I've been simplifying a bit: it turns out that what matters is not the full wave, but the half wave: the full wave has to exactly fit into the "there and back" distance, so the distance between the walls needs to be half of that: the half-wavelength. So to get a mode for 20 Hz, your room needs to be 56 / 2 = 28 feet long. Obviously, most home studios do not have modes at 20 Hz, because there's no way you can fit a 30 foot control room into most houses!

So clearly, the longest available distance defines your lowest mode. If we take a hypothetical dimensions as an example (typical of home studio sizes), and say the length of the control room is 13 feet, the width is 10 feet, and the height is 8 feet. So the lowest mode you could possibly have in your room, would be at about 43 Hz (fits into 13 feet perfectly). That's an "F1" on your bass guitar.

The next highest mode that you room could support is the one related to the next dimension of the room: In this case, that would be width, at 10 feet. That works out to 56.5 Hz. That's an "A1#" on your bass guitar. Five entire notes up the scale.

And your third major mode would be the one related to the height of the room, which is 8 feet, and that works out to 71 Hz, or C2# on the bass guitar. Another four entire notes up the scale.

There are NO other fundamental modes in that room. So as you play every note going up the scale on your bass guitar (or the keyboard), you get huge massive ringing at F, A# and C#, while all the other notes sound normal. tink.tink.tink.BOOOOM.tink.tink.tink.tink.BOOOOOM.tink.tink.tink.BOOOOOM.tink.tink....

Not a happy picture.

There are harmonic modes of all those notes higher up the scale, sure. But in the low end, your modes are very few, and very far between.

So, what some people say is "If modes are bad, then we have to get rid of them". Wrong! What you need is MORE modes, not less. Ideally, you need a couple of modes at every single possible note on the scale, such that all notes sound the same in your room. In other words, the reverberant field would be smooth and even. Modes would be very close together, and evenly spread.

So trying to "get rid of modes" is a bad idea. And even if it were a good idea, it would still be impossible! Because modes are related to walls, the only way to get rid of modes is with a bulldozer! Knock down the walls...

That's a drastic solution, but obviously the only way to get a control room that has no modes at all, is to have no walls! Go mix in the middle of a big empty field, sitting on top of a 56 foot ladder, and you'll have no modes to worry about....



Since that isn't feasible, we have to learn to live with modes.

Or rather, we have to learn to live with the LACK of modes in the low end. The problem is not that we have too many modes, but rather that we don't have enough of them in the low frequencies.

Obviously, for any give room there is a point on the spectrum where there are "enough" modes. Above that point, there are several modes per note, but below it there are not.

There's a mathematical method for determining where that point is: a scientist called Schroeder figured it out, years ago, so it is now known as the Schroeder frequency for the room. Above the Schroeder frequency for a room, modes are not a problem, because there are are lots of them spaced very close together. Below the Schroeder frequency, there's a problem: the modes are spaced far apart, and unevenly.

So what can we do about that?

All we can do is to choose a ratio that has the modes spaced sort of evenly, and NOT choose a ratio where the modes are bunched up together. For example, if your room is 10 feet long and 10 feet wide and 10 feet high, then all of the modes will occur at the exact same frequency: 56.5 Hz. So the resonance when you play an A1 on the bass, or cello, or hit an A1 on the keyboard, will by tripled! It will be three times louder. The nulls will be three times deeper. That's a bad situation, so don't ever choose room dimensions that are the same as each other.

You get the same problem for dimensions that are multiples of each other: a room 10 feet high by 20 feet wide by 30 feet long is also terrible. All of the second harmonics of 10 feet will line up with the 20 foot modes, and all of the third harmonics will line up with the 30 foot modes, so you get the same "multiplied" effect. Bad.

In other words, you want a room where the dimensions are mathematically different from each other, with no simple relationship to each other.

That brings up the obvious question: What ratio is best?

Answer: there isn't one!

Over the years, many scientists have tested many ratios, both mathematically and also in the real world, and come up with some that are really good. The ratios they found are named after them: Sepmeyer, Louden, Boner, Volkmann, etc. Then along came a guy called Bolt, who drew a graph showing all possible ratios, and he highlighted the good ones found by all the other guys, and predicted by mathematical equations: If you plot your own room ratio on that graph, and it falls inside the "Bolt area", then likely it is a good one, and if it falls outside the "Bolt area", then likely it is a bad one. Sort of.

So, there are no perfect ratios, only good ratios and bad ratios.

It is impossible to have a "perfect" ratio, simply because that would require enough modes to have one for every note on the musical scale, but that's the entire problem with small rooms! There just are not enough modes in the low end. So you can choose a ratio that spreads them a bit more this way or a bit more that way, but all you are doing is re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic, in pleasant-looking patterns. The problem is not the location of the deck chairs; the problem is that your boat is sunk!: Likewise for your studio: the problem is not the locations of the modes: the problem is that your room is sunk. No matter what you do with the dimensions, you cannot put a mode at every note, unless you make the room big enough. It is physically impossible.

But that does not mean that your room will be bad. That's the common perception, and it is dead wrong.

All of this leads to the question you didn't ask, but were probably heading for: What can I do about it?

Here's the thing: Modes are only a problem if they "ring". The wave is only a problem if the energy builds up and up, with each passing cycle, until it is screaming, and then the "built up" energy carries on singing away, even after the original note stops. That's the problem. If you stop playing the A1 on your guitar, and the room keeps on playing an A1 because it "stored" the resonant energy and is now releasing it, then that's a BIG problem! The room is playing tunes that never were in the original music!

If a mode doesn't ring like that, then it is no longer a major issue.

So how do you stop a mode? You can't. But you CAN stop it from "ringing". You can "damp" the resonance sufficiently that the mode dies away fast, and does not ring. You remove the resonant energy and convert it into heat: no more problem!

You do that with "bass trapping". You use strategically placed acoustic treatment devices inside the room that absorbs the ringing of the mode, so that it cannot ring. There are several ways to do that, with different strategies, but the good news is that in most rooms it is possible to get significant damping on the modes, so that they don't ring badly, and don't cause problems. Not that the bass trapping does not absorb the mode: it just absorbs the ringing. Some people don't understand this, and think that the bass trapping makes the modes go away: it doesn't. All it does is to damp them. The mods are still there, and still affect the room acoustics in other ways, but with good damping, at least they don't "ring" any more.

And that is the secret to making a control room good in the low end! Damp the hell out of the low end, so modes cannot appear. It's that simple.

The smaller the room, the more treatment you need. And since those waves are huge (many feet long), you need huge bass trapping (many feet long/wide/high/deep). It takes up lots of space, and the best place for it is in the corners of the room, because that's where all modes terminate. If you want to find a mode in your room, go look for it in the corner: it will be there. All modes have a velocity node in two or more corners, so by treating the corners, you are guaranteed of hitting all the modes.

As I said, there is no single "best" ratio, but there are good ones. You can use those two "Room Mode Calculator" to help you figure out which "good ones" are within reach of the possible area you have available, then choose the closest good one, and go with that. And stay away from the bad ones.

Arguably, Sepmeyer's first ratio is the "best", since it can have the smoothest distribution of modes... but only if the room is already within a certain size range. Other ratios might be more suitable if your room has a different set of possible dimensions. So there is no "best".

But that's not the entire story: So far, all the modes I have only mentioned are related to two walls across the room, opposite from each other. I mentioned modes that form along the length axis of the room (between the front and back wall), others that form along the width axis (between left and right walls), and others that form on the height axis (between floor and ceiling): Those are the easiest ones to understand, because they "make sense" in your head when you think about them. Those are called "axial modes", because they form along the major axes of the room: length axis, width axis, height axis.

However, there are also other modes that can form between four surfaces, instead of just two. For example, there are modes that can bounce around between all four walls, or between the front and back walls as well as the ceiling and floor: those are called "tangential modes". And there are other modes that can form between all six surfaces at once: the involve all four walls plus the ceiling and the floor. Those are called "oblique modes".

The complete set of modes in your room consists of the axial modes, plus the tangential modes, plus the oblique modes.

That's what a good room mode calculator (a.k.a. "room ratio calculator") will show you. There are bad calculators that only show you the axial modes, which is pretty pointless, and the good ones show you all three types. The two I linked you to both give you all of this information.

However, modes aren't that important, despite all the hype they get: Modes are one aspect of room design, but there are many more. It's wise to choose a ratio that is close to one of the good ones, or inside the Bolt area, but you do NOT need to go nuts about it! There's no need to nudge things around by smalls fractions of an inch, hoping to get a "better" ratio. Just stay away from the bad ones, get close to a good one, and you are done. End of story.

Again, I don't understand the science and math behind all of this. Like many people, I just want to make the music but now since I'm making a bigger investment, it's time that I learn these things.

Yup! That's why many forum members come here: because they don't understand this stuff, and in reality they should not need to! Musicians have no need of this stuff, and no need to learn it usually, just like a car mechanic has no need to learn about how to bake bread, in order to be a better mechanic. Or a brain surgeon has no need to learn how to grow flowers, to be a better brain surgeon. Musicians don't need to know about room modes and MSM resonance to be better musicians. But they DO need to know about it if they plan to design and build their own studio! This is VERY important stuff for designing a studio. Just like nobody will ever be able to play the guitar if the don't want to learn about musical scales and chords and rhythms and bridges and stuff, so to nobody will ever be able to design a studio it they don't want to learn about room ratios and decibels and isolation and resonance and modes, and bass traps, and diffuser cut-off frequencies, and air flow rates and static pressure an latent heat and a hundred other things. It's that simple: people who want to play guitar have to learn all of the theory of music, and practice. And people who want to design their own studios will have to learn all of the theory, and the practice.

It would be cool if I could track the drums,

You sure can! No problem! ... provided that you design your studio with enough isolation to do that. Which means you need to design it so that the MSM resonance of your walls is at least one octave lower than the lowest frequency that your drum kit can put out, and that you have enough mass and air gap in your walls to do that.

I don't even know what those things meant until you typed them out, I googled them and saw you being helpful once again:

Yup! there's many different design concepts for control rooms. I just mentioned those, because they are the ones that need splayed walls, but there's many others besides. Personally, I'm convinced that RFZ is the best of all, and that's the way I design most of the studios I do for my customers. And they seem to work out great, which makes me even more convinced that RFZ is the best.

Got it, so two layers of 5/8. I can actually get a deal on 60, 12 long sheets that are 5/8. But then there will be a lot of cutting at some point.

Yep! Welcome to the word of studio building! Where you get to do a LOT of cutting, of LOTS of things... as well as a lot of nailing, and a lot of careful measuring, and a lot of swearing when you measured wrong and cut wrong... and a LOT of caulking and sealing!!!! A HUGE lot of that...

Like I explained earlier I meant 2x4 that were 8 feet in length. With me using the 703, I'd have to double up because each is 2 inches and I'm filling a four inch cavity correct?

No. You are filling in a 3 1/2" cavity. 2x4 lumber does not actually measure 2" by 4". It did when they cut the log while it was still green and wet, but after that they dried it out and dressed it, and your 2x4 now only measures 1 1/2" by 3 1/2". So your stud bays are only 3 1/2" deep. Which is why OC-703 also comes in 3" thickness! As well as 2" and 4".

Ok, so even if I'm not using the garage door as part of the design it all still comes into play?

Yep! The door doesn't care if you know about acoustics and MSM and transmission, and Young's modulus, and the speed of sound, and wave numbers, and phase rotation... It just does not care! All it knows how to do is to behave like a sound-wave, and when it hits your door, that's exactly what it will do, even of you don't want it to, or don't think it should, ...

Man, this stuff is mind boggling

Yep! And we are only just getting started on some of the basics... there's a LOT more still!!!

but at least I'm finding out now.

Again, I was under the impression that I needed to build a room, with two slabs of sheetrock/drywall to make my walls, and that would be it.

It would be nice if it were that simple, but it ain't! It would also be nice if learning to play guitar like Peter Frampton was as simple as just picking up a guitar and plucking strings at random, but that also ain't gonna work! In both cases, you have to learn the theory, an the practice, if you want things to work out right.

Ok, so if I do this then keep the booth separate as the booth is it's own structure, with it's own leafs and because of this it will have an impact on the isolating the lower mid range.

Right.

Here's what you actually need to do, in a simplified diagram:

MSM-two-leaf-WallChunk-conventional-NOT-inside-out--three-room--with-corridor--S04.png

That shows the concept, not the details. Those three inner-rooms could represent your control room, live room, and vocal booth. You need to create a "shell" around those actual rooms, and that's your garage. I'm showing a sort of corridor or passage along one side, so you can actually get into those rooms. Notice how each room is a "two-leaf" system with respect to the other rooms, and also with respect to the outside world? If you imagine yourself standing inside any room, you can see that you would have to go through two "leaves" to get into any other room, or to get into the corridor, or to get into the outside world. This is critical! This "two leaf" system is the ONLY way to get good isolation at low cost. You can still get good isolation other ways, but it costs a lot more. Or you can get lousy isolation for the same price, in other ways...

Two-leaf is what you need. ONLY two leaf. Never one, never three, or four, etc. Only two. This is the key.

Also note that there is no mechanical connection between the leaves: the outer-leaf is one shell, that surrounds all three rooms, but without touching them. And each of the inner rooms is a single leaf that that does not touch any other room, or the outer leaf.

This is the only way to design and build a studio properly, with good isolation, for the lowest cost. It is commonly referred to as "fully decoupled 2-leaf MSM isolation". That's what you need to do.

So two doors? One connected to the first leaf that is comprised of two 5/8 pieces and another door connected to the other two 5/8 pieces?

Right!

I didn't take that into account. I mean I know I need it, but I didn't do the proper research to see how ducts were made, how much they would cost, how to be installed, etc

HVAC is a very important part of studio design, and is rather complex. It's another huge subject that you'll have to learn about. But fortunately, there's a huge amount of information about it, all over the forum.

Aside from the books you suggested, is there anything I can read right now that will help me decide if I need difussers or do I need to wait until I have the control room dimensions dialed in?

The general rule of thumb is that you need at least ten feet between the diffuser and your ears, and that diffusers should go behind you, not in front of you, nor above you. If your control room is not big enough that your rear wall is more than ten feet away form the back of your head, then you probably should not use diffusers. But that's not a big deal: there are ways around that, other types of treatment that can be used to control what you need to control....

First, thanks for telling me which books I need to read. Also, my local libraries don't have them so I'll go ahead and place an order via Amazon. I DO consider this as a learning lesson which is why I have no issue with what you're telling me or you telling me the approach is wrong.You're offering constructive criticism and showing me how to tighten things up which will save me money and heartache at the end of the day. So nope, no need for me to be upset.

Cool! Glad you didn't take offense.

So, based on your reply I need to build with acoustics in mind, need to address ventilation, need to focus on a two leaf system instead of 3 or more leaves, should revisit the room dimensions, should keep the mic booth separate from the control room, should use my concrete floors instead of wood flooring and should read the two books you suggested.

Well, that's the beginning of the initial basics for starting to commence the fundamental first minimal stuff.... you can then start building on that basic foundation...

Did I miss anything?

Yes! About a million and thirty seven other things, but we'll get to them one by one, each in turn...


- Stuart -

[THELH]

Heavy reading but I have to do it. Also, one of the books came in today and I'll be typing a response to your previous post tomorrow. This is going to be hard but I'm willing to learn .