Making A Small Mix Room Sound As Good As Possible

How to use REW, What is a Bass Trap, a diffuser, the speed of sound, etc.

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Moto
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Joined: Thu Nov 03, 2016 5:30 pm
Location: Brooklyn NY, USA

Making A Small Mix Room Sound As Good As Possible

Post by Moto »

Hey Guys,

Been following this board for a couple of months now and also have been reading as much as I can from this book lately:
"Recording Studio design" by Philip Newell. Just want to say how grateful I am that you guys have posted such a wealth of information and help up here. I have already made sure to donate to help keep this resource alive and kicking.

I am a Producer / Mix engineer in the design phase of adding acoustic treatment to an already built sound proof room. My move in date for the new space is Nov 15th, 2016. So I currently do not have direct access to the location as we speak (I will be taking REW measurements when they give me the keys). Till then I am trying to create a game plan and assess what I will need to build in order to make the place usable. I have bounced around a lot and have been working out of bedrooms covered in Owens corning 703 for over 8 years, so this is my first permanent location dedicated to only to music.
The space is pretty rough but it would be nice to try to make it as accurate as it is physically capable of. My top priority for this room is getting it to sound right (or not awful at least :shock:), I'm aware that I will be giving up a lot of real estate to treatment, and I am not concerned if it looks cool (bonus if it does). It will be my own personal work space, not really taking clients here, and my own gear setup is lean at this point. (1 Computer, 1 rolling rack of gear) Instruments: (Midi Keyboard, Electric drum kit). Any real tracking would be done at a full scale studio.

Loudness
I generally Mix between 78 db - 83db C weighted. Occasionally turning it up further to see how it feels loud. I also I work with a lot of electronic music, so dealing with a lot of beefy low ended tracks. The one good news about this space is that there is no loudness restriction. The room is located in a "Studio Factory" which are pretty common here in Brooklyn. Essentially a warehouse filled with poorly constructed "soundproofed" rooms all running next to each other. Its in an industrial zone, so no problems with cranky neighbors and no hourly restriction on when I can work and make noise. I will have to occasionally deal with neighboring studio room noise, but fortunately I am a night owl and will usually be there working when the place is empty.

The Room
Trying to find any sort of space to rent here in nyc is utterly soul crushing. Unless you got some serious coin to blow the options are pretty grim. With the high cost of living and astronomical apartment rent, there was only so much wiggle room I had. So this was the least s**t option available in my budget. A lot of other music spaces kept band rehearsal rooms next to the studio rooms. Fortunately the owner of this space had enough foresight to keep all the production/mixing people in their own separate wing which is nice.

The Dimension of the space is exactly 131"x107"x94"inches (roughly 11'x9'x8 feet) which is at least not a pure cube or evenly divisible lengths and widths etc. But it is VERY SMALL.
Top.jpg
(Note: This is my first time using sketchup so please forgive me if some of the angles of the panels and speakers are a little lumpy. I have made sure to make sure the dimensions and proportions of things are accurate though.)

Construction
According to the owner the rooms are double 5/8 drywall on both sides of the wall with independent frames not touching adjacent rooms. I believe there is also some sort of fiberglass/rockwool in between the walls. Unfortunately they were sloppy in terms of hermetically sealing the room. All the electric sockets and the "AC duct" (discussed later) are all not properly sealed. As for the door there is no air lock, just one single heavy metal door with a layer of mdf or hdf screwed on to it to make it heavier. There is rubber trimming around the door which seals some what competently. I am on the first level, and the floor is a solid concrete slab. As of now there is some carpet and auralex garbage on the wall which I have requested both to be removed. So when I move in all walls will be blank and concrete will be exposed.

Irregularities
All surfaces are parallel, the room is a rectangle. There are only two irregularities to consider. 1) A fire sprinkler on the ceiling which must remain exposed. 2) the two air duct tubes feeding a portable air conditioner located in my far corner, this is my ventilation and climate control. Yes, that does mean I will have to chose between air/ sweating my balls off, and silence. ( I can tell you are getting jealous of this lavish lifestyle I live)
ac side.jpg
ac back.jpg
this to me was a big disappointment as I had planned originally to put super chunks there and this makes it impossible. Its located in what would be the front corner behind my left speaker. It consist of two 10"ish wide air conditioning tubes, which feed into my AC exhaust hoses. Here are some photos showing how much space they take up
pipe long.jpg
pipe wide.jpg
The room has no windows or pipes sticking out. The only other slight difficulty is that the door is located in the back right corner of the room. However I plan to make moveable super chunks to fix this issue. I can just slide them in place when I enter the room and start working.

Isolation from the street
In terms of Isolation from the outside road I would rate it good. The room is located inside a brick building and my room walls are about 20 ft away from the external brick walls, so not much of an issue there.

Please let me know if I am missing any other important construction details.

Monitors
I am currently using Dynaudio Bm15a's. I do have DIY cinder block stands I made a few years back. However the stands are double wide because at the time I was using two sets of monitors. Now I only use one.
The acoustic axis is 43.7inch/ 111 cm. Slightly low but my chair goes down fine and it keeps me out of the 50% line between floor and ceiling. Just so you know this is just something I already have. I am no by no means attached to it, and if it makes sense to make something else I am totally fine with that.
Monitor Stands.jpg
Furniture / Gear
In terms of furniture I am extremely minimalist. My setup has always been just monitors, a comfy office chair. No desk. Just a laptop stand which will either hold a laptop, or wireless keyboard mouse combo connected to a tower unit. If I am producing or composing a midi keyboard will be taken out and put on a keyboard stand to one of my sides. In this room these are my main tools. I also have an electronic drum kit. But its pretty compact and can fold itself to have a small footprint about 3.0" feet across.

I mix in the box with a Neve mastering compressor strapped across the master bus for some flavor. The Neve lives in a rolling rack with a few pre's.

These are really the only things I need to fit in this room. No couch, no hangout area. My apartment is not far, if I need to chill I can go home. This is a work space.

Acoustic Panels
Here is a list of panels which I have collected/built over time. Also included in the list are a few I am possibly planning to build. Once again this is just an inventory of what I already have. I am also very open to not using or taking apart and re purposing any of them if it makes sense for the room. (note: Both the blue corner traps and the yellow super chunks are not built yet, every thing else I already own)
Panel List Moultrie st.jpg
The Layout

This layout is not written in stone at all, it was just me trying to get a feel for the room using what I already have with my current understanding. I tried to take SoundMan's advice and focus my resources on the rear wall and in the corners.
Roof off.jpg
Top View:
The circle in the middle is my 38% of the room length zone mix position. Obv I will have to move around and listen where is best. In reality I will be sitting there with a small laptop stand or midi keyboard. I have tried to place the monitors as far back as possible on the front wall. In terms of centering and angling the monitors I am still struggling to get it symmetrical in sketchup. If you look to the front left corner you can see the two ducts as circles. In order to get some corner coverage around the A/C ducts I am going to have to straddle the corner with traps that are 36" long 24" high 4" wide. It will take 4 stacked on top of each other from floor to ceiling. My current idea is to put duct holes in the corner traps to run the A/C exhaust into the pipes. (more detailed images later). To the left of the mix position is the air conditioner unit.

Rear Wall
Rear wall.jpg
I'm not sure if I am wasting resources doing this but I have focused the heaviest panels I have on the rear wall. From what I have read on this forum and in Philip Newell's book, it requires a crap ton of fiberglass to absorb bass. The rear wall being most critical. Correct me if I'm wrong but even this is not enough to get to the really low stuff. I have lined my corners with moveable superchunks. In addition my ceiling corner will be lined with GIK tri-traps (more or less a super chunk) and my floor corner with another tri-trap. On the acual wall I planed to use the GIK Monster trap (more or less feels like a OC 703 trap 6" thick") with a 4" air gap. In front of that I have my own DIY panels on stands. They are 8" OC 703. Because these are on stands I can move them any distance from the wall.

Front Wall:
Front Wall.jpg
In the front wall I have the speakers pushed all the way to the wall with 4" oc703 panels behind them to try to help a little with SBIR. Ideally I would have loved super chunks in the corner but that's not happening with the AC duct. So instead as described before I am thinking about straddling the corners with 4" 703/ or rockwool filled panels. Whats annoying is the standard 2foot wide straddle is not enough for the ac ducts so it will require 36" length panels. That wastes 1ft of material per panel being I will have to cut a foot of each 48" long slab of fiberglass leaving me 8 feet of 4" fiberglass leftover.

in the 36" long corner panel I plan to put duct holes in them for the a/c. The sketchup is rough but the idea is clear.
Ac front port.jpg
ac back port.jpg
......---> continue
- Ben -
Moto
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Location: Brooklyn NY, USA

Re: Making A Small Mix Room Sound As Good As Possible

Post by Moto »

Door Side Wall:
Door Side.jpg
at my first reflection point I have a Gik 244 panel (more or less a 4"703 panel) with a 4" air gap
above are 2 Gik 244's as clouds. But I am considering making new clouds with hard backs to reflect the sound behind me.
Straddling the ceiling-wall corner is an old oc705 trap I have laying around.

Opposite Wall
Far wall.jpg
Similar to the previous wall
244 in first reflection point
oc 705 straddling corner

there is a blank spot on this wall I have not put anything there just yet. most likely will. Correct me if I am wrong but I think I need something like 50% coverage for a room this small.

Also if you look at the front wall you can see a tri trap mounted on the wall - ceiling corner.

Additional photo

The hallway of "studios" my room is located in.
hall.jpg
Questions

1) For you veterans out there. Judging by the dimensions how badly do I have the odds stacked against me to get something usable out of this space. The answer to this determines my future level of investment in to making the space work. One great thing with this space is it is month to month. I need to give a 60 day notice that I am leaving, but at least I'm not locked in long term. Ideally I would like something at least 150ft2, but there is no knowing if something like that will pop up in my price range. I am not expecting a mastering grade room. But at the same time there is nothing worse than having no confidence in your mixes ability to translate in the low end when working.

If the answer is "no hope, your screwed" then my strategy will simply to be make these panels that are all easy to take out when moving and just play the waiting game of finding another space.

If there is any hope of making this room decent, then I am very open to the more involved options such as
-Soffit mount the monitors
- maybe possibly some tuned membrane traps once all the other things have been addressed.
- Something crazy like active bass trapping?
- Any other suggestions

I will be measuring things out with REW once I get in there. But the fact of the matter is the sooner I can prepare the sooner I am up and running. This is not a home studio, I am paying rent on it. So I'm not going to rush carelessly. But I would like to keep things as timely and efficient as possible.

2) If the answer is "yes, there is some hope to this room"
- Would the room benefit from soffit mounted monitors. I can't see why not, removing SBIR from front wall in a small room seems like a win to me.
- Is it possible to make a soffit with those a/c ducts in the corner?
- Is it possible to frame a wall for the soffits when the walls have already been constructed and drywalled? Most builds I have seen the walls had not be drywalled yet. Will I have to use a design more like John's component design here
component.jpg
3) Am I utilizing my rear wall panels correctly, or is this over kill, at what point on my rear wall am I getting diminishing returns.

4) For my front wall, the blue panels that straddle the ducts, is 4" thick enough or should I do 6". Is it worth it or once again diminishing returns?
- Also is this the best possible strategy for this given situation.

5) How much more paneling should I add? Cover the whole ceiling? Front wall? I don't mind If I work in a rockwool box with no reverb time, as long as the frequency response is somewhat accurate. I don't mind using a ton of the stuff as long as I am not being wasteful.

6. At which points should I put possibly some wood slats or plastic over panels to try to keep some high frequencies. Can that be anything that's not my first reflection points?

7. Any other suggestions with Panels and placement. Remember I have not yet built the blue panels or super chunk yet, so if there is a more efficient way to do this I am all about it. This is not written in stone for me, I'm just trying to exercise whatever understanding of the concepts I think I have learned and utilize the materials I already have at this point.

8. Any other insights you guys might have I am very open to. I really trust the understanding that the members of this forum have.
Give it to me straight, I am not a sensitive baby, I want to learn!

9. Can I get away with just painting the concrete floor, or should i just cough up the extra $200 and install some cheap laminate flooring myself. I have done it before.
Budget

Just as discussed before, my budget varies based on the limitations of the room. If hopeless I would like to minimize it to panels that can be easily removed from the room when I move, which may be quickly. If there is a chance of something decent I am willing to go all in and invest in more construction specifically for the room, and do whatever is needed to get there.

Thank you guys so much for everything. Looking forward to hearing from you!
- Ben -
Soundman2020
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Re: Making A Small Mix Room Sound As Good As Possible

Post by Soundman2020 »

Hi there Ben, and Welcome to the forum! :)

That's a very detailed, very well done first post, by the way- Top notch! Clearly you've been thinking this through very carefully, and done a clear, solid, logical plan. There's probably not a lot I can add to that!
The Dimension of the space is exactly 131"x107"x94"inches
Your diagram seems to show it being narrower at one end than the other: is it really like that, or is that just a glitch in the drawing?
All surfaces are parallel, the room is a rectangle.
OK, I guess that answers my question above! It's just an error in the sketch, and the actual room really is rectangular.
feeding a portable air conditioner located in my far corner,
:ahh: Ouch! Those things are NOISY! You might want to consider building an isolation box for it, to keep it quiet, with built-in silencer for the air to circulate through it. It would have to be quite large, and the isolation won't be perfect, but at least it would allow you to use that AC unit most of the time.
The acoustic axis is 43.7inch/ 111 cm. Slightly low but my chair goes down fine
That's nearly 4" too low. That's a lot. You'll be sitting uncomfortably low like that. If the stands are just concrete block, then maybe consider adding a a couple of 2" concrete paving slabs on top (or underneath) to get you up to the right height. It's better to have the speakers slightly higher rather than lower.
I'm not sure if I am wasting resources doing this but I have focused the heaviest panels I have on the rear wall.
"Heavy" in terms of weight/density? Or "heavy" in terms of thickness? OR "heavy" as in "heavy duty", the ones best designed for the job?
The rear wall being most critical. Correct me if I'm wrong but even this is not enough to get to the really low stuff.
What you are proposing there is a pretty good setup. It will certainly take a large bite out of the low end problems, and help considerably to get it under control. It's possible that it won't be enough, but seeing that you already have all of that stuff, I'd go for it, to see how well it works. Measure the room with REW before you put it in, and then again afterwards.
In the front wall I have the speakers pushed all the way to the wall with 4" oc703 panels behind them
:thu:
But I am considering making new clouds with hard backs to reflect the sound behind me.
That would probably be a good idea, but once again do what you can with what you have, then test and see how it is going.
there is a blank spot on this wall I have not put anything there just yet. most likely will. Correct me if I am wrong but I think I need something like 50% coverage for a room this small.
Probably, but start with less and see how it goes, then add more if you need it.

Also, with all that absorption in the room, it is going to suck the life out of the top end, so I'd be thinking about wrapping some of those with plastic, to reflect back some of the highs.
Judging by the dimensions how badly do I have the odds stacked against me to get something usable out of this space.
Well, it's a small room, so it's not going to be fantastic, but it can still be good.
The answer to this determines my future level of investment in to making the space work.
Here too I'd suggest the same thing: use what you have and see how it goes with REW tests, then you can decide if it is worthwhile investing more, or not.
-Soffit mount the monitors
I highly recommend soffits in general, but in such a small room they might take up more space than you can afford to lose. You'd have to model them completely in Sketchup and see how it works out.
- maybe possibly some tuned membrane traps once all the other things have been addressed.
Probably not. You don't have enough space for that.
- Something crazy like active bass trapping?
I wouldn't do that, but I would consider electronic tuning... but that can only work after the room is very well treated acoustically.
- Would the room benefit from soffit mounted monitors. I can't see why not, removing SBIR from front wall in a small room seems like a win to me.
Yes, if you can afford the space. See above! :)
- Is it possible to make a soffit with those a/c ducts in the corner?
Probably, but it's going to be a pain! You'd have to go with proper metal or wood ducting inside the soffit (forget the flex-duct) so you can leave enough space for the speakers inside the soffit (it gets cramped in there!)
- Is it possible to frame a wall for the soffits when the walls have already been constructed and drywalled?
Yes, definitely.
3) Am I utilizing my rear wall panels correctly, or is this over kill,
It's pretty hard to "over-kill" the bass trapping in a small room! You'll probably find that what you are proposing is actually "under-kill"!
at what point on my rear wall am I getting diminishing returns.
When you run out of money. :)

More seriously, if you do regular REW tests as you are putting that parts of that rear wall treatment in place, you'll be able to see how well each one is working, and what more could be done. So if you see that the last couple of pieces didn't do very much at all, then you are getting close to the point where it doesn't make sense to throw in more treatment.
4) For my front wall, the blue panels that straddle the ducts, is 4" thick enough or should I do 6".
I would go for 6", if you are OK with losing that space.
5) How much more paneling should I add? Cover the whole ceiling? Front wall? I don't mind If I work in a rockwool box with no reverb time, as long as the frequency response is somewhat accurate. I don't mind using a ton of the stuff as long as I am not being wasteful.
Your goal is called ITU BS-1116-2: That's a spec that defines what the acoustics of a critical listening room should be. It defines what the decay times should be for each octave band, what the frequency response should be, and a number of other things. Read the relevant sections (you can skip the first couple of chapters: not applicable to you), and you'll have a good idea of what you should be aiming for. Then test with REW each time you do something, to see if you are getting closer. In this thread: ( http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471 ) you can see what the response looks like in a room that has been treated and tweaked to the limit. Of course, your room cannot get achieve that response (it is just too small), but it can still get fairly close in most aspects.
6. At which points should I put possibly some wood slats or plastic over panels to try to keep some high frequencies.
Right now! :) At the point where you hang each one: The superchunks will definitely need that. As you put them in, first try them with no covers, do a REW test, then add the plastic and see if it is doing it's job. If not, then use thicker plastic, or a second layer. But don't over-do it!
Can that be anything that's not my first reflection points?
:thu:
9. Can I get away with just painting the concrete floor,
Absolutely! That's a great floor for a studio, acoustically: As long as you are OK with the look, then that's fine. Right at the end, you might want to add one or two small throw-rugs as the final touch, both visually and acoustically.
If there is a chance of something decent...
Yep! There sure is! :)



- Stuart -
Moto
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Re: Making A Small Mix Room Sound As Good As Possible

Post by Moto »

Stuart,

Thank you so much for the reply! That's relieving to here that there is some hope to this room!
Your diagram seems to show it being narrower at one end than the other: is it really like that, or is that just a glitch in the drawing?
I think it is just the angle that I took the snapshot of the 3d room, prob tilted on a weird axis that makes it appear warped. I double checked and its straight once you open the sketchup file and look around.
Ouch! Those things are NOISY! You might want to consider building an isolation box for it
That's an awesome idea, def going to implement this once the rest of the room is up.
It's better to have the speakers slightly higher rather than lower.
Understood, I will make the adjustments.. If this places my speakers at the 50% of height of the room should I be concerned, is there a work around?
"Heavy" in terms of weight/density? Or "heavy" in terms of thickness? OR "heavy" as in "heavy duty", the ones best designed for the job?
Yea I meant heavy as in heavy duty, most effective, or heavy artillery . The big guns.
Also, with all that absorption in the room, it is going to suck the life out of the top end, so I'd be thinking about wrapping some of those with plastic, to reflect back some of the highs.
Awesome, def doing this. How are wood slats compared to plastic wrap. Since the wood is even more reflective, will that be too much for my small room. Would that start reflecting mids which I am trying to absorb?
I wouldn't do that, but I would consider electronic tuning... but that can only work after the room is very well treated acoustically
I already own Sonar works reference 3. Def going to try to play around with it as the final step once all other issues are fully addressed. Is that software adequate. Or do you recommend something more advanced like the trinov stuff.
I highly recommend soffits in general, but in such a small room they might take up more space than you can afford to lose. You'd have to model them completely in Sketchup and see how it works out
I will def be contacting you via PM, would love to find out more about this, and inquire about your actual paid design services for the soffit. I don't feel confident in designing something like this on my own with all the weird irregularitys due to the ac ducts. Plus with the not so easily adjustable nature of a soffit it would nice to have the design nailed down correctly off the start.
More seriously, if you do regular REW tests as you are putting that parts of that rear wall treatment in place, you'll be able to see how well each one is working, and what more could be done. So if you see that the last couple of pieces didn't do very much at all, then you are getting close to the point where it doesn't make sense to throw in more treatment.
Awesome, understood.
I would go for 6", if you are OK with losing that space
def going with 6" then
Your goal is called ITU BS-1116-2
thank you, just downloaded the pdf and had a read through. def will reference this once panels are up and measurements are taken.
In this thread: ( viewtopic.php?f=2&t=20471 ) you can see what the response looks like in a room that has been treated and tweaked to the limit
Dude those waterfall plots are simply ridiculous (gorgeous studio design also). I didn't know its possible to get things that flat. Well f**in done man. Just further proof that your knowledge and this forums/john's concepts are not just hypothetical theories. You can't beat real world measurable results.
Of course, your room cannot get achieve that response (it is just too small), but it can still get fairly close in most aspects.

Fairly close is still beyond anything I could ask for.


One extra question.
Little vague because I am just tossing the idea around. If I were to add a small table/desk, rather than my traditionally used laptop stand what would be the maximum recommended size. also I have a stereo set of Auratones I was thinking of implementing. where could I place these without messing things up.

Thank you again Stuart for all the help. I will post more once I get into the room and start getting some measurements going!
- Ben -
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Re: Making A Small Mix Room Sound As Good As Possible

Post by Soundman2020 »

That's an awesome idea, def going to implement this once the rest of the room is up.
I actually had an idea about how best to do that... I'll tell you about it in a PM... :)
If this places my speakers at the 50% of height of the room should I be concerned, is there a work around?
In an untreated room, yes, I'd be very concerned about that. But in a properly designed and treated room, it's not much of an issue. People sometimes get overly concerned about speakers and heads being centered on one axis or another, but they seem to forget that your head will ALWAYS be centered on the left-right axis! It kind of has to be, in order to get a proper stereo image in a symmetrical room... :) And yet, it works just fine!

Here's the thing: the dreaded artifacts supposedly caused by having things on center lines are only potential artifacts! They will only be there for real if you allow them to be there. As long as the room is designed/treated well to deal with those, they wont' be there, and you won't have a problem.
Awesome, def doing this. How are wood slats compared to plastic wrap.
Wood slats are an option, but you have to be careful: You want to reflect back only some frequencies, not all of them, and you want it to happen selectively: With plastic, you can choose the cut-off point, such that you only reflect back frequencies above "xx" Hz., while allowing those below that point to get through and be absorbed. Of course, it's not a sharp 96 dB/octave cut-off! It's a gentle curve over a couple of octaves, but you can select the center point of that curve by selecting the correct thickness of plastic, and you can also select the ratio of absorption-to-reflection by adjsuting the coverage. I have been known to take a knife or pair of scissors to the plastic, and cut our holes or slots as needed, when I went too far with the coverage... :shock: It works... :)

You can sort of of do the same with wood slats, but in a different way: the thickness makes no difference here, since it is already plenty thick enough to reflect everything, but you can adjust the slat width to only reflect above certain frequencies, based on the size/wavelength rule.

The other issue with wood slats is that you have to be careful to not inadvertently build a slot wall, which is a form of Helmholtz resonator! That's a tuned device, and hard to tune as well. I do use slot walls sometimes, when they are needed, but not as an "accessory" to prevent over-absorption of highs on bass traps. I use wood slats for that, yes, but I make sure that I don't make it into a tuned device! And where I actually do want a tuned device, I make sure that I build it for that specific purpose and frequency range. . . . :)
I wouldn't do that, but I would consider electronic tuning... but that can only work after the room is very well treated acoustically
I already own Sonar works reference 3.
Hmmm.... yamn.... zzzz.... :)

Those "one size fits all magical automated software" systems are fun toys. They can entertain you, and make you think that you accomplished something important, but that's not the way I do it. If I would have tried that on Studio Three, the results would have been far, far short of what we actually achieved. Software can only go so far, and in any event only works where your computer is on.. (duh!). I use a different approach, and I'll tell you about that by PM. I don't want to be spilling all my secrets out in public! :)

What they don't tell you about those automated software gizmos is that the will only work IF the room is already well treated acoustically: If not, they can make matters worse, not better: And they only work for one specific location in the room: the exact point where the mic was when you did the automation. And they do so at the expense of making all other locations in the room WORSE. Some of them allow you to take several readings at different points, then "average" the results... which obviously implies that you can only ever get "average" results for the mix position! :shock: :roll:

And if you look at that marketing hype, you'll notice that they only ever show improvement in frequency response curves: they never show you the "improvements" in phase, or time-domain response, both of which are arguably more important the pure frequency response.

I don't use automated magical incantations: I tune rooms manually. I use automation to help,sometimes, but I do the REAL tuning by hand.

Suffice it to say that right now I'm working with a studio owner who already had tried out one of those wonderful magical products (not the one you mentioned), and he even bought some special hardware that the makers said he HAD to have to make it work right. He shelled out lots of money for that... And spent many happy hours playing with his toy! But not getting very far. When I started showing him how it works with my way, he sent that back! After my very first attempt (which I basically do only as a test, just to see if everything is working), he packaged up the hardware and software, and sent it all back, demanding a refund. My first very rough attempt already beat what the automated magical stuff could do after hours of tweaking.

The thing with the automated stuff is that is it just "automated stuff"! The software has no real understanding of the room, no intuition as to what is causing the issues in that specific room, no comprehension of the actual situation of the room, nor the people in it, nor the speakers, furniture, or treatment. It's just an algorithm, a set of rules and instructions, a pure computational "recipe", but a very "dumb" one, in the sense that there's no real human brain in there, looking at all the factors. It can do some basic improvements under some circumstances in some rooms, but that's about it. The professional approach is different: it involves real humans doing what humans do best: thinking and observing, and using experience and intuition and actual understanding.... :) A real human brain understands what sound is, and how things actually "sound", and what that means to us, as humans, in our perception, and our emotion. Software cannot deal with a room sounding "warm" or "open" or "dull" or "shrill", as those are subjective, emotional judgements. Software just understands that "this number is 4 values smaller than the rule says it must be, so it must be made 4 values bigger", but it has no understanding of what that actually implies for human hearing in general, and specially in the context of a studio. Years ago, computers were sometimes give the name "Tom" by engineers and operators. Not because the computer has a personality, but because "T-O-M" stands for "The Obedient Moron"! :) It follows rules exactly, perfectly, even when the rule makes no sense.... If you want your room tuned by a moron, then use magic automated software to do it! :)
Def going to try to play around with it as the final step once all other issues are fully addressed. Is that software adequate. Or do you recommend something more advanced like the trinov stuff.
To be honest, don't waste your time. Or money. By PM I'll walk you though how to do that, if you want. Also, please feel free to contact the owner of Studio Three (Rod), and ask him about how we did that... It's boring, and it takes time, but I think he'll tell you that it works! :)
I will def be contacting you via PM, would love to find out more about this, and inquire about your actual paid design services for the soffit. I don't feel confident in designing something like this on my own with all the weird irregularitys due to the ac ducts. Plus with the not so easily adjustable nature of a soffit it would nice to have the design nailed down correctly off the start.
I saw your PM. I'll respond to that a bit later, but I did want to respond to your post on the forum first, so as to not leave your post floating around, unanswered...
thank you, just downloaded the pdf and had a read through. def will reference this once panels are up and measurements are taken
As I mentioned, the first couple of chapters don't apply to you, as they describe the context and situation that the spec was originally developed for. But the technical chapters are very useful. They lay out the actual specs that a critical listening room needs to meet, and in many cases give a brief explanation regarding why/where that spec came from.

But you need to be referencing it from the start! Not just when you put the panels up. You should take those specs into account when you decide where/which/what/how many/etc. of each panel to use.
Dude those waterfall plots are simply ridiculous (gorgeous studio design also).
:oops: Thanks for the kind words! The graphs on that page are actually not the final graphs: we carried on tuning a bit more after that post, and it got even better... :) (Yep, I kid you not...). The final graphs are on the actual website for Studio Three. You can see them there, plus read the story of how we achieved that. Rod asked me to write up part of that for his website, as he wanted to have all the technical explanations for his customers to read, so they can understand the studio better. He's really proud of what he achieved in that studio, and wants to show it, so I wrote up a reasonably detailed account for him, and he wrote his own account, from his perspective. It might be interesting for you, if you have a few spare minutes to read it...
I didn't know its possible to get things that flat.
:) To be honest, I wasn't totally convinced we'd be able to get it that flat initially, due to the restrictions imposed by things I could do nothing about as I came into the picture too late to be able to change them. But Rod set me a challenge: he asked me If I could get his room response "within the top 1% of all pro studios"... That's a real tall order, but I do love a good challenge, so we did our absolute best on that, from every angle. I believe we probably hit the goal, or at least got real close, even though I cant prove it. I wish I had some way of actually measuring that, objectively! I do know that his room is among the top 1% of all the 167 pro rooms that were tested for a research paper published a few years ago, because we compared his graphs to the graphs for all of those rooms, and had nothing at all to be ashamed of! Since that was a sampling of pro studios from everywhere, I think it's fair to say that we met the goal.

But anyway, I'll stop ranting about his room, and we'll start talking about your room!
Just further proof that your knowledge and this forums/john's concepts are not just hypothetical theories. You can't beat real world measurable results.
:thu: So true! :yahoo:
One extra question.
Little vague because I am just tossing the idea around. If I were to add a small table/desk, rather than my traditionally used laptop stand what would be the maximum recommended size. also I have a stereo set of Auratones I was thinking of implementing. where could I place these without messing things up.
If you want to have a desk, you could, but make it as small as possible, and as low profile as possible, and design it carefully such that the reflections go to places where they can be dealt with, and do NOT go to your ears.

OK, I'll rant again! The desk in Studio Three was a major problem: it is large, and solid, and heavy, and angled wrong, and has flat surfaces in the wrong places... but Rod really likes it, and it needs to be big in any case to house the console, so it had to stay. But it did cause us nightmares. In the final room tuning, Rod had to modify it in several ways to solve acoustic issues it was causing. With my guidance, he cut parts off it, changed angles, added bits to it, chopped holes in it, and filled parts of it with acoustic treatment. It helped a lot, but there are still some issues. In fact, that's the last remaining reason why the graphs can't be even smoother than they are. The "bumpiness" in the mid range is due to the desk, mostly, and there's nothing more I can do about that. If we throw thick fluffy blankets over the console and desk, all of that goes away, and the graphs are almost dead flat. But it's kinda hard to operate a console that is covered in thick blankets! Rod says that if he were to do the studio over again, he's replace the desk with something smaller and more open, with fewer surfaces. He's actually thinking of doing that anyway...

So, if you do want a desk, make it small, open, and with few large flat surfaces. And DON'T put your other speakers on it! Put them on stands. Speakers on a desk or meter bridge are a recipe for trouble. Note that there is a second pair of speakers in Studio Three: On stands, behind the desk, in carefully chosen positions where they don't interfere with the main speakers, or the room acoustics, in any way.
Thank you again Stuart for all the help. I will post more once I get into the room and start getting some measurements going!
:thu:

Looking forward to it!



- Stuart -
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