Hi All,
First post. I would very much like to not annoy you fine people, so hopefully I've followed all the instructions properly.
I'm a mastering engineer. My girlfriend and I just bought a house in a rural-ish location in Rhode Island (USA). It's not quite ours yet, closing is the end of Dec., so I'm in the research/planning phase right now.
There's a detached 2-car garage. Behind that there's a workshop (attached to the garage). The workshop is going to be my new studio. Dimensions are roughly 30' long, 20' wide, the ceiling is about 13'6" at the apex.
I've attached two pictures of the interior. The one with the garage door faces the back yard, the other faces the garage. In that picture, you can see the back wall is cinderblocks halfway up. That's the foundation of the garage. The plywood above that is the back wall of the garage. It's unfinished on the other side as well.
The workshop is about 40' away from the house, probably 40' back from the road, at least 100' from the closest neighbor. As far as we can tell so far, all of the neighbors are older, so with any luck they're all already deaf:)
I'm just mastering, I'm almost never over 85dB.
Given the above, I feel like my isolation needs are relatively minimal. I may well be wrong! But I don't think I need to build a massive bunker. My parents have a room of similar size and construction in a similarly rural location and I've always thought I could work in there no problem. And it doesn't have to be PERFECT. If I can't work for a couple hours on Saturday afternoon cause the neighbor's mowing their lawn, that's fine.
I don't have a real plan yet, but my basic idea is to keep the room as big as possible and treat as necessary. The one thing I know I want to do is keep the ceiling rafters visible, because 1. it looks nice, and 2. it's super convenient for adding treatment between the rafters.
So what I'd like to do is add 2 layers of drywall in between the rafters (attached to the plywood roof sheathing). Then a layer of rockwool, then 2" 703 covered in fabric (rafters are 2x8, so there's just enough room for all this). I'll add some thick bass trapping along the collar ties as well.
I'd REALLY rather not do a room within a room. If it turns out to be necessary then I will (the walls would be easy, the ceiling would be a serious pain), but if I can avoid it, that would be super.
So here come the questions:
1. The walls are just the exterior plywood right now, so obviously they need to be beefed up. Would it be better to put the drywall up in strips between the studs (like I want to do on the ceiling), or should I just put R19 up and then drywall like normal people? The latter is of course way quicker and easier. I don't mind doing the former, BUT am I ok adding drywall directly to the exterior plywood, as far as moisture goes? The building is standard new construction (built in 2014), I assume there's a layer of Tyvek on the outside under the siding. FWIW when I first saw it, we'd had pouring rain for days and it was perfectly dry inside.
It'll be fine? Get the mold-resistant drywall? Put a layer of those OC fiberglass boards up first? I've done a lot of googling and getting a definitive answer on this is....uh....challenging.
2. Likewise with the moisture, what do I do with the cinderblock wall at the back? I've read 100% conflicting opinions on whether to put up a vapor barrier or not. Also, there's a concrete foundation wall of varying height running along about 2/3 the length of the side walls. I was planning on filling the space between the exterior and inner walls (whether actual drywall or just for treatment) with r30, do I put plastic over the concrete or just leave it or HELP ME WHAT DO I DO.
3. I'm thinking it makes sense to have that cinderblock wall be the back wall of the studio, a fellow ME said "put the speakers near the wall of lightest construction" and that sounds right to me. What do you think?
4. There's a wood stove in the workshop. Would I be completely insane to have this in a mastering studio, or would I be crazy not to if it was already there? It gets cold here in the winter! I've spent the last 16 years in a huge freezing loft space, having a toasty studio would be awesome. If you tell me its nuts though I won't argue too much.
I have a million more questions but I think that's enough out of me for now. My budget is about 10k. Thanks for reading if you made it this far!
-scott
A few (hopefully!) simple questions
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morespaceecho
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Soundman2020
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Re: A few (hopefully!) simple questions
Hi there Scott, and welcome to the forum! 
Great first post, by the way: I wish all new members would take the time and effort to do what you did.
It's far, far worse to start out with a room that is too small than too big!
Are you planning to stick with the B&W speakers for this room, or are you planning to move up to something larger and more accurate for this new studio? If you plan to stay with the B&W's, then you'd probably want to down-size the room a bit, as those don't have a lot of power, and might be a little on the small size to properly deal with that air volume. That's a lot of air for small boxes to move. If you want to go more upscale with speakers, to something beefier, then you could probably keep the room pretty close to where it is, in volume. In that case, you could keep the B&Ws in there as well, for double-checking results on speakers that you are very familiar with.
I took at a look at your website, and I LOVED your mastering layout! Really, really good. You have nothing at all between your ears and the speakers, so very little possibility of artifacts from console or desk surfaces in front of you. The only issue is going to be the floor bounce, but that can be dealt with. To have that setup, you clearly appreciate maximum quality, and don't want anything to interfere with it. Very cool. Very laudable.
There are very good reasons why you might want a bit of extra isolation. Firstly, because you are mastering, and clean, crystal clear detail and accuracy are really important. Secondly, because you are mastering, and clean, crystal clear detail and accuracy are really important. And thirdly: Firstly, because you are mastering, and clean, crystal clear detail and accuracy are really important! (Oh, and also because you are mastering... )
Let me explain. You already mentioned that it rains a lot where you are. Rain on a roof makes noise. Maybe a very soft noise if it is gentle rain, but noise nevertheless. Hail and storms make much more noise (but I'm not sure that is applicable where you live?) So does wind. Aircraft flying overhead. Traffic noise, sirens, and suchlike, even distant, are not something you want to have in the background while you are trying to hear something subtle in the song, and tweak it. Nor do you want noise from your neighbors, or even from your own house: your girlfriend might decide to watch TV, vacuum, listen to the radio, talk on the phone, take a shower, or do any number of other things that make sound, albeit small, that could disturb you.
Mastering is precision work. It needs precision conditions. All those subtle ambient noises getting inside your room could mess up your pristine listening conditions, perhaps even subconsciously.
So I'd suggest that you reconsider your isolation needs. A single sheet of plywood between you and the outside world will provide about 25 dB of isolation, so even quiet sounds will get in and out. People talking at normal conversation levels a few feet outside the walls would be audible inside. You would probably want to shoot for around 40 to 50 dB of isolation.
There's a parameter in studio design called the "NC" (Noise Criteria) curve or "NR" (Noise Rating) curve (depending on which country you happen to live in...). It defines the noise floor: the level of the background sound inside the studio when nothing is going on in there: all the gear and lights are on, the HVAC is running, but no music is playing. That's the level of "quiet" that should be present under those conditions. For a mastering studio, you'd normally want something like NC-20, or even NC-15. This is what the graphs for the various curves look like:
So I'd suggest that you should consider modifying the interior length, width (and maybe height too) in order to meet those specs. Of course, that's assuming that you want a pro mastering studio to work in. One that tells you the acoustic truth. If I guessed wrong, and it turns out that you are not at all interested in high-end pro mastering, and instead are just looking to do this as a hobby or semi-pro, then you can ignore that. If you don't mind the room lying to you, and drastically messing up your frequency response, time-domain response, and phase response, then you can forget about modes and ratios. They are only important for advanced studios, where precision is key.
I'm not arguing that it would be really cool to keep those trusses visible, because they sure are nice, but if they would get in the way of optimizing acoustics, then you should be prepared to sacrifice them. I have no idea if that would be the case or not, since I didn't do any calculations at all on your studio, but the point is that if they would compromise acoustics, then aesthetics loses and acoustics wins. Especially for a mastering studio, where acoustic accuracy is the top priority. Once you start working through those equations, you might well find that the trusses are not an issue. Or you might find out that they are a big issue...
That said, depending on how your existing roof is constructed, it MIGHT be possible to get away without doing a two-leaf ceiling, and just do semi-coupled two-leaf MSM walls, to increase your isolation to a reasonable-but-not-fantastic level.
Yep! Very much! There's an awful lot of people out that there that don't know very much about a subject, but are very willing to spread their ignorance, vociferously! But you are in the right place now, here on the forum.
The vapor barrier would NOT go on ANY of your walls, if you don't build an inner leaf! A vapor barrier is only needed on a two-leaf wall (any type of two leaf wall), and only where climate calls for it. If it is needed,then it always goes inside the wall cavity, up against the surface that that is warmest in winter. For you, that would be the inner-leaf wall. You would put it on the studs just before you put up the drywall on your inner-leaf. It would never go on the masonry itself, because that's the outer-leaf wall, and is also the coldest in winter. If you put a vapor barrier on that wall, then water vapor would condense on the cold surface, and you'd end up with mildew, mold, and rot in your wood, sooner or later.
So,l if you don't want isolation, and don't have an inner leaf, then you would not have any vapor barrier at all. If you do have an inner leaf (of any type), then you would put the vapor barrier on that.
Your speakers should go in the correct geometric relationship to the room and to your head, in order to maximize clean acoustics and minimize artifacts. That implies a number of things, but mostly it means at least the following three:
- Speakers firing down the longest axis of the room, in order maximize the round-trip time to the back wall, such that it is considerably longer than the Haas time, and therefore your studio won't suffer from the Haas effect.
- Your room is big enough that you can put the speakers far away from the front wall and still accomplish that. So you'd want to set up your room such that the speakers are maybe six or eight feet away from the front wall, and at least 14 feet from the rear wall, to give you nearly 30ms ITDG.
- The speakers must be set up in the correct relationship not only to the room, but also to each other, as well as to your head. There's a number of distance and angles that need to be calculated here, but none of them is related to the "lightest construction". They are all related to room acoustics, and psycho-acoustics, and only very distantly concerned with building materials.
I must admit that it would be very tempting to keep that in there, but of that were my room, I'd have to pass. I might keep it inside as a decoration, but it would be non-functional. There's just so many reasons why I would not make it operational. Too many to go into right now, especially considering that it's nearly 2 AM where I am, and I didn't get much sleep last night!
I'd give serious thought to drastically increasing your budget. There's other suggestions that I'd make if that were going to be my studio, but the clock just struck 2 AM, and I need to hit the sack...
- Stuart -
PS. to give you an idea of what the acoustics of a mastering studio should be like, here's a link to a place I designed a few years back, then re-tweaked earlier this year when the owner decide to swap out his old speakers for higher-quality boxes. Part way down the page are some graphs of the acoustic response that we achieved, so you can see what you should be shooting for. It meets or exceeds all the specs I mentioned. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471 Feel free to contact him, and ask about accuracy, frequency response, room-tuning, etc. He'd love to hear from you. Mention my name.
Great first post, by the way: I wish all new members would take the time and effort to do what you did.That's a really nice size, perhaps a little too large for a good mastering studio. ITU BS.116-2 and similar specs call for the floor area to be between 20m2 and 60 m2 for two-channel (2.0 and 2.1) critical listening rooms. 600 ft2 is about 56 m2, so it's borderline at the high end of the scale. That's a good thing, since it gives you lots of options. The 13' foot height is great too!Dimensions are roughly 30' long, 20' wide, the ceiling is about 13'6" at the apex.
It's far, far worse to start out with a room that is too small than too big!
Are you planning to stick with the B&W speakers for this room, or are you planning to move up to something larger and more accurate for this new studio? If you plan to stay with the B&W's, then you'd probably want to down-size the room a bit, as those don't have a lot of power, and might be a little on the small size to properly deal with that air volume. That's a lot of air for small boxes to move. If you want to go more upscale with speakers, to something beefier, then you could probably keep the room pretty close to where it is, in volume. In that case, you could keep the B&Ws in there as well, for double-checking results on speakers that you are very familiar with.
I took at a look at your website, and I LOVED your mastering layout! Really, really good. You have nothing at all between your ears and the speakers, so very little possibility of artifacts from console or desk surfaces in front of you. The only issue is going to be the floor bounce, but that can be dealt with. To have that setup, you clearly appreciate maximum quality, and don't want anything to interfere with it. Very cool. Very laudable.
So accuracy is paramount for you. You need a room that tells the truth, the whole ugly and complete truth, and nothing but the truth. No coloration. No masking. Just pure clean flat response.I'm just mastering, I'm almost never over 85dB.
Sorry to disagree, but I'd be inclined to go for your second phrase there!Given the above, I feel like my isolation needs are relatively minimal. I may well be wrong!
There are very good reasons why you might want a bit of extra isolation. Firstly, because you are mastering, and clean, crystal clear detail and accuracy are really important. Secondly, because you are mastering, and clean, crystal clear detail and accuracy are really important. And thirdly: Firstly, because you are mastering, and clean, crystal clear detail and accuracy are really important! (Oh, and also because you are mastering... )Let me explain. You already mentioned that it rains a lot where you are. Rain on a roof makes noise. Maybe a very soft noise if it is gentle rain, but noise nevertheless. Hail and storms make much more noise (but I'm not sure that is applicable where you live?) So does wind. Aircraft flying overhead. Traffic noise, sirens, and suchlike, even distant, are not something you want to have in the background while you are trying to hear something subtle in the song, and tweak it. Nor do you want noise from your neighbors, or even from your own house: your girlfriend might decide to watch TV, vacuum, listen to the radio, talk on the phone, take a shower, or do any number of other things that make sound, albeit small, that could disturb you.
Mastering is precision work. It needs precision conditions. All those subtle ambient noises getting inside your room could mess up your pristine listening conditions, perhaps even subconsciously.
So I'd suggest that you reconsider your isolation needs. A single sheet of plywood between you and the outside world will provide about 25 dB of isolation, so even quiet sounds will get in and out. People talking at normal conversation levels a few feet outside the walls would be audible inside. You would probably want to shoot for around 40 to 50 dB of isolation.
There's a parameter in studio design called the "NC" (Noise Criteria) curve or "NR" (Noise Rating) curve (depending on which country you happen to live in...). It defines the noise floor: the level of the background sound inside the studio when nothing is going on in there: all the gear and lights are on, the HVAC is running, but no music is playing. That's the level of "quiet" that should be present under those conditions. For a mastering studio, you'd normally want something like NC-20, or even NC-15. This is what the graphs for the various curves look like:
No, but I'd suggest that you still need quote a bit more than you are getting right now.But I don't think I need to build a massive bunker.
I'm wondering how "pro" you want your studio to be. From the photos and list of gear, my guess would be that you really appreciate quality, pristine clarity, and high accuracy. If that's the case, then you should design and build your studio to provide that! You cannot achieve that in "just any old room". Apart from the floor area and total volume of the room, the shape and relationship between the room dimensions can have a large influence on the sound. For example, if two dimensions are identical or multiples of each other, then the room modes associated with those two directions will line up perfectly, and you'll have modal hell! Modes are standing waves, and are resonant: they store energy, then release it. A mode at 80 Hz will "ring" along with the kick drum, and will carry on ringing for a while after each kick drum hit already came and went. so you'd still be "hearing" the kick, when it isn't "kicking" any more! That's bad, obviously. Depending on how the room is set up, you might also be in the null for some modes, meaning that you'd never hear that specific frequency at all! The sound would be "sucked out" for that note, or greatly diminished. Your room is reasonably large, so your modal issues won't be too bad... provide you choose dimensions that spread them around evenly! But " 30' long, 20' wide " raises red flags for that! Those are both multiples of ten. So every second order mode in the length direction will occur at the same frequency as every third order mode in the width direction: Modal hell. If you take a close look at BS.116-2, you'll find a set of specs that the dimensions must meet, regarding their relationship to each other, in order for the room to be acceptable as a critical listening space.I don't have a real plan yet, but my basic idea is to keep the room as big as possible and treat as necessary.
So I'd suggest that you should consider modifying the interior length, width (and maybe height too) in order to meet those specs. Of course, that's assuming that you want a pro mastering studio to work in. One that tells you the acoustic truth. If I guessed wrong, and it turns out that you are not at all interested in high-end pro mastering, and instead are just looking to do this as a hobby or semi-pro, then you can ignore that. If you don't mind the room lying to you, and drastically messing up your frequency response, time-domain response, and phase response, then you can forget about modes and ratios. They are only important for advanced studios, where precision is key.
I'm having a similar conversation with another forum member right now, on his thread, and one of the points I eventually convinced him of, is that "looking nice" is not the primary function of a control room (in his case) or a mastering studio (in your case). The number one priority is to provide acoustic accuracy. the SECONDARY priority is to be comfortable to work in for long periods, and the THIRD priority is to look nice. After all, it IS a studio, so first and foremost the design must ensure that the direct sound from the speakers arrives at your ears totally clean and unaltered. Comfort and aesthetics are important too, but they take a back seat to the actual purpose of the studio.because 1. it looks nice, and 2. it's super convenient for adding treatment between the rafters.
I'm not arguing that it would be really cool to keep those trusses visible, because they sure are nice, but if they would get in the way of optimizing acoustics, then you should be prepared to sacrifice them. I have no idea if that would be the case or not, since I didn't do any calculations at all on your studio, but the point is that if they would compromise acoustics, then aesthetics loses and acoustics wins. Especially for a mastering studio, where acoustic accuracy is the top priority. Once you start working through those equations, you might well find that the trusses are not an issue. Or you might find out that they are a big issue...
That's an awful lot of work to get just 5 or 6 dB of extra isolation! You say you don't need isolation, so is it really worth doing that, just to go from around 25 dB to roughly 30 dB?So what I'd like to do is add 2 layers of drywall in between the rafters (attached to the plywood roof sheathing).
I'm wondering why you chose that particular combination? Why not do it all with mineral wool, or all with 703? Or why not first the 703 and then the mineral wool? What advantage are you expecting from that?Then a layer of rockwool, then 2" 703
Why do you think you'll need so much bass trapping in the vertical plane? With a gabled roof and visible trusses, I'm not so sure that I'd be excessively worried about 0.0.x modes. I'd be far more concerned about bass trapping for 0.x.0 modes and x.0.0 modes.I'll add some thick bass trapping along the collar ties as well.
Your current dimensions are mathematically related, as I mentioned above. Your total floor space and room volume are pretty close to the upper limit for a critical listening room. You likely do need more isolation than you though you did. Base on those three, I'd suggest that you might want to give some serious thought to "room-in-a-room". You could still have visible wood joists in your inner-leaf ceiling, if you wanted, and you could even make them look like the raised collar trusses that are already there. If that's the look you want, then it could easily be re-created inside the room.I'd REALLY rather not do a room within a room. If it turns out to be necessary then I will (the walls would be easy, the ceiling would be a serious pain), but if I can avoid it, that would be super.
That said, depending on how your existing roof is constructed, it MIGHT be possible to get away without doing a two-leaf ceiling, and just do semi-coupled two-leaf MSM walls, to increase your isolation to a reasonable-but-not-fantastic level.
You'd get more isolation from the second option, but still not a huge amount. Maybe 35 dB or so. That's ten times better than where you are now, but still not all that good. Doing BOTH of those would improve things even more...1. The walls are just the exterior plywood right now, so obviously they need to be beefed up. Would it be better to put the drywall up in strips between the studs (like I want to do on the ceiling), or should I just put R19 up and then drywall like normal people? The latter is of course way quicker and easier.
Very likely the answer is "yes". You could do that with no problem, assuming that there are no problems currently. If the wall staid totally dry after days of rain, then my guess is that you'd be perfectly OK. If you are concerned, then use something else instead of drywall to "beef up" that outer leaf. Something that doesn't care about water so much. Exterior grade or marine plywood, OSB, fiber-cement board, or some such.BUT am I ok adding drywall directly to the exterior plywood, as far as moisture goes?
I've done a lot of googling and getting a definitive answer on this is....uh....challenging.
Yep! Very much! There's an awful lot of people out that there that don't know very much about a subject, but are very willing to spread their ignorance, vociferously! But you are in the right place now, here on the forum.Does the wall "sweat"? Can you see/feel condensation on it?2. Likewise with the moisture, what do I do with the cinderblock wall at the back? I've read 100% conflicting opinions on whether to put up a vapor barrier or not.
The vapor barrier would NOT go on ANY of your walls, if you don't build an inner leaf! A vapor barrier is only needed on a two-leaf wall (any type of two leaf wall), and only where climate calls for it. If it is needed,then it always goes inside the wall cavity, up against the surface that that is warmest in winter. For you, that would be the inner-leaf wall. You would put it on the studs just before you put up the drywall on your inner-leaf. It would never go on the masonry itself, because that's the outer-leaf wall, and is also the coldest in winter. If you put a vapor barrier on that wall, then water vapor would condense on the cold surface, and you'd end up with mildew, mold, and rot in your wood, sooner or later.
So,l if you don't want isolation, and don't have an inner leaf, then you would not have any vapor barrier at all. If you do have an inner leaf (of any type), then you would put the vapor barrier on that.
The same rule applies: You would ONLY have a vapor barrier IF your wall is two leaf (either coupled or uncoupled), and if that were the case, it would go on the inner leaf, not the outer leaf.Also, there's a concrete foundation wall of varying height running along about 2/3 the length of the side walls. I was planning on filling the space between the exterior and inner walls (whether actual drywall or just for treatment) with r30, do I put plastic over the concrete or just leave it or HELP ME WHAT DO I DO.
I'd say he is very wrong!3. I'm thinking it makes sense to have that cinderblock wall be the back wall of the studio, a fellow ME said "put the speakers near the wall of lightest construction" and that sounds right to me. What do you think?
Your speakers should go in the correct geometric relationship to the room and to your head, in order to maximize clean acoustics and minimize artifacts. That implies a number of things, but mostly it means at least the following three:- Speakers firing down the longest axis of the room, in order maximize the round-trip time to the back wall, such that it is considerably longer than the Haas time, and therefore your studio won't suffer from the Haas effect.
- Your room is big enough that you can put the speakers far away from the front wall and still accomplish that. So you'd want to set up your room such that the speakers are maybe six or eight feet away from the front wall, and at least 14 feet from the rear wall, to give you nearly 30ms ITDG.
- The speakers must be set up in the correct relationship not only to the room, but also to each other, as well as to your head. There's a number of distance and angles that need to be calculated here, but none of them is related to the "lightest construction". They are all related to room acoustics, and psycho-acoustics, and only very distantly concerned with building materials.
Probably, yes!4. There's a wood stove in the workshop. Would I be completely insane to have this in a mastering studio,
I must admit that it would be very tempting to keep that in there, but of that were my room, I'd have to pass. I might keep it inside as a decoration, but it would be non-functional. There's just so many reasons why I would not make it operational. Too many to go into right now, especially considering that it's nearly 2 AM where I am, and I didn't get much sleep last night! You can certainly have it toasty! In fact, a high-end mastering studio needs constant temperature and humidity, right in the middle of the human comfort range, so that's very necessary. But you'd need to do it with a proper HVAC system, suitably designed for a mastering suite. Of course, I'm still assuming that you really do want a high-end studio!I've spent the last 16 years in a huge freezing loft space, having a toasty studio would be awesome.
Ummm.... I'm not sure how to break this to you, but that's very much on the low side! VERY much. Do the math: 600 square feet, 10k, means that you plan to spend just sixteen dollars per square foot. Ummm.... That's not going to go nearly far enough for a high-end mastering studio. Your HVAC system alone is going to eat up a third of your budget, or more. You didn't mention flooring, but assuming a typical good quality laminate floor on good underlay at around 2 dollars per square foot, there goes another chunk of your budget. Your ceiling insulation (mineral wool plus 703) is going to cost you around 2 to 3 dollars per square foot. 600 ft2... do the math... I think you can see where this is going: we already blew most of your budget on just a few items, and none of them were about isolation, acoustics, layout, geometry, treatment.... We didn't even look at electrical at all yet!My budget is about 10k.
I'd give serious thought to drastically increasing your budget. There's other suggestions that I'd make if that were going to be my studio, but the clock just struck 2 AM, and I need to hit the sack...
Loved it!Thanks for reading if you made it this far!
- Stuart -
PS. to give you an idea of what the acoustics of a mastering studio should be like, here's a link to a place I designed a few years back, then re-tweaked earlier this year when the owner decide to swap out his old speakers for higher-quality boxes. Part way down the page are some graphs of the acoustic response that we achieved, so you can see what you should be shooting for. It meets or exceeds all the specs I mentioned. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471 Feel free to contact him, and ask about accuracy, frequency response, room-tuning, etc. He'd love to hear from you. Mention my name.
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morespaceecho
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Re: A few (hopefully!) simple questions
Stuart,
Thanks so much for that super-comprehensive reply! At 2am no less! And that studio you linked to looks beautiful, lovely work there.
I'll talk a little bit about my goals first and then answer your questions. To me, this is a high end mastering room:
http://www.amsterdammastering.com/
If I was loaded, I'd hire Thomas Jouanjean in a second and then just sit back and write checks. Alas, my whole budget is about what the door at amsterdam mastering cost. SO! Aiming to compete on that level is just out of the question.
My current room is in the loft where I've lived for the past 16 years. I built it a little over 6 years ago and it's served me well. It's just a simple rectangle, 21'3" long, 16'10" wide, 13'6" high, I think it's 1:1.26:1.59 (Sepmeyer?). It's double decoupled walls all around, but shares the ceiling with the rest of the space (building an isolated ceiling by myself was just not something I could do!). I did secure the inner walls to the ceiling with iso clips, which maybe helped some. Anyway, once I got enough treatment in, it sounded really good and it's been very easy to work in there. If I wanted to keep living in this super expensive city (Boston) and didn't think my landlord was gonna sell the building imminently, I'd happily stay here forever.
My goal with the new room is simply: a little better than what I have now. Not "any old room" of course, but I think a simple room that's carefully considered and constructed could work just fine.
I will be keeping the B+W's for sure. Eventually I'd love to get a pair of their big brothers, but first things first right? I just have one sub now, I'm planning on adding another in the new space. They've had no problems moving air in the current room, and as I said, I'm not trying to push 110db or anything.
I'm well aware of the problems with the 20'x30' dimensions! That will be modified for sure. Messing around with the room mode calc, something like 27'3"x18'6" was looking pretty good. Although, looking at that now....18/27 is the same as 20/30, I don't know if a few inches difference is enough to make it ok? But those dimensions are what I wrote down in my notes here.
QUESTION: with an A-frame ceiling, which starts at 8' and ends at 13'6", for the room mode calc, if I average that to 11'3" does that get me in the neighborhood of the ballpark?
As far as the ceiling, and the treatments between the rafters, you asked:
So, that seemed like a reasonable plan for getting some thermal insulation and acoustic treatment that looks nice.
As far as the deep bass trap up top along the collar ties:
Drywall between the rafters:
exterior plywood
layer of R19 fluffy (or something?)
drywall layers screwed to 1x2s inside the rafters
acoustic treatment
Would having a gap between the drywall and the plywood help any with the isolation? That will create resonant cavities right? Is it worth it?
The roof is going to be the weak link regardless BUT I feel like it might be ok....my loft here is on the top floor so my ceiling is the roof (standard flat warehouse rubber roof), and as I said the joists are all exposed, so the ceiling here is the weak link. I'm right on a main drag in a city and honestly, it's mostly been fine. If there's a boom boom car out front or a big truck idling I can hear that a little bit, but in general it hasn't been a problem at all. Tough to imagine it being worse in the country. As far as the rain, it actually doesn't rain all that often here, and if it's raining hard enough to really be problematic, I take that as an opportunity to take a break and go lay on the couch and listen to the soothing sound of rain on a roof. There's been maybe a handful of times that's happened in 16 years so I'm not too worried about it.
As far as the walls,
That cinderblock wall at the back, as far as I could tell (with the little time I've been in there) it was totally dry.
Since that wall is the foundation of the garage, it doesn't make sense to me to add any mass to it. I mean, it's the earth behind it right? Since the top (plywood) part of that wall is the back wall of the garage (unfinished on the garage side as well), my thought is to leave that wall as is on the studio side (it'll be the actual back wall of the studio with a ton of bass trapping in front of it), add drywall layers in between the studs on the garage side, then insulation, then put up a decoupled wall in the garage and drywall that. Or the simpler, cheaper option would be to just insulate and drywall the garage side normally.
Does that make sense? What do you think?
As far as the budget, I know it's low, but it's what I have. All the treatments from my current studio are coming with me. I have at least 80 sheets of 2" 703 and a ton of rockwool. All the electrical in the new place is already wired up, the workshop has it's own panel, I'll just need to reroute the lines through the interior walls. So there's some savings there. I am going to put in a hardwood floor, but if money's tight, that doesn't have to happen immediately, I can live with just the slab for a bit if I have to.
We're cutting our cost of living expenses basically in half with this move (rent in Boston is...don't get me started), so hopefully we'll be able to save more money, which I can then of course put right back into the studio.
I should add....I charge $35 a song. That's gonna go up to $40 once the new studio is built (my girlfriend thinks I should raise it now, I said no one raises their rates BEFORE they build the fancy new studio) but regardless...I'm not competing with Bob Ludwig for clients. I want to keep my rates low because I want to encourage people who might otherwise self-master or worse, use L*ndr, to use me instead. I don't need better clients, the ones I have are great, I'd just like more.
So with the budget...we have great credit and it would probably not be too tough for me to get a loan to pour more money into making some super amazing space, but then I have more debt, I have to raise my rates more....eeehhhhhhh I just really don't think that's the route to go. I spent maybe 6-7k building my current room, and that included a bunch of tools and renovations to the rest of the loft. I've been making a living and doing professional work here for over half a decade, I ought to be able to do that at the new place without breaking the bank.
Thanks so much for that super-comprehensive reply! At 2am no less! And that studio you linked to looks beautiful, lovely work there.
I'll talk a little bit about my goals first and then answer your questions. To me, this is a high end mastering room:
http://www.amsterdammastering.com/
If I was loaded, I'd hire Thomas Jouanjean in a second and then just sit back and write checks. Alas, my whole budget is about what the door at amsterdam mastering cost. SO! Aiming to compete on that level is just out of the question.
My current room is in the loft where I've lived for the past 16 years. I built it a little over 6 years ago and it's served me well. It's just a simple rectangle, 21'3" long, 16'10" wide, 13'6" high, I think it's 1:1.26:1.59 (Sepmeyer?). It's double decoupled walls all around, but shares the ceiling with the rest of the space (building an isolated ceiling by myself was just not something I could do!). I did secure the inner walls to the ceiling with iso clips, which maybe helped some. Anyway, once I got enough treatment in, it sounded really good and it's been very easy to work in there. If I wanted to keep living in this super expensive city (Boston) and didn't think my landlord was gonna sell the building imminently, I'd happily stay here forever.
My goal with the new room is simply: a little better than what I have now. Not "any old room" of course, but I think a simple room that's carefully considered and constructed could work just fine.
I will be keeping the B+W's for sure. Eventually I'd love to get a pair of their big brothers, but first things first right? I just have one sub now, I'm planning on adding another in the new space. They've had no problems moving air in the current room, and as I said, I'm not trying to push 110db or anything.
I'm well aware of the problems with the 20'x30' dimensions! That will be modified for sure. Messing around with the room mode calc, something like 27'3"x18'6" was looking pretty good. Although, looking at that now....18/27 is the same as 20/30, I don't know if a few inches difference is enough to make it ok? But those dimensions are what I wrote down in my notes here.
QUESTION: with an A-frame ceiling, which starts at 8' and ends at 13'6", for the room mode calc, if I average that to 11'3" does that get me in the neighborhood of the ballpark?
As far as the ceiling, and the treatments between the rafters, you asked:
I want to have the 703 on the bottom (facing the room) because it's easy to cut them exact, cover with fabric, and have it look nice and finished. Mineral wool covered in fabric still looks terrible. My ceiling here is all exposed joists, I put 703 between them in the studio, it looks good. Out in the living room, where my drums live, I put mineral wool wrapped in fabric. Looks awful.I'm wondering why you chose that particular combination? Why not do it all with mineral wool, or all with 703? Or why not first the 703 and then the mineral wool? What advantage are you expecting from that?
So, that seemed like a reasonable plan for getting some thermal insulation and acoustic treatment that looks nice.
As far as the deep bass trap up top along the collar ties:
That's good to hear! I figured it's still a corner and what else would I do with that space? Seems like a good spot for some trapping, no?Why do you think you'll need so much bass trapping in the vertical plane? With a gabled roof and visible trusses, I'm not so sure that I'd be excessively worried about 0.0.x modes. I'd be far more concerned about bass trapping for 0.x.0 modes and x.0.0 modes.
Drywall between the rafters:
Yeah, it sure is! Hhhhmmm. If I want to preserve my beloved visible rafters idea, what about something like:That's an awful lot of work to get just 5 or 6 dB of extra isolation!
exterior plywood
layer of R19 fluffy (or something?)
drywall layers screwed to 1x2s inside the rafters
acoustic treatment
Would having a gap between the drywall and the plywood help any with the isolation? That will create resonant cavities right? Is it worth it?
The roof is going to be the weak link regardless BUT I feel like it might be ok....my loft here is on the top floor so my ceiling is the roof (standard flat warehouse rubber roof), and as I said the joists are all exposed, so the ceiling here is the weak link. I'm right on a main drag in a city and honestly, it's mostly been fine. If there's a boom boom car out front or a big truck idling I can hear that a little bit, but in general it hasn't been a problem at all. Tough to imagine it being worse in the country. As far as the rain, it actually doesn't rain all that often here, and if it's raining hard enough to really be problematic, I take that as an opportunity to take a break and go lay on the couch and listen to the soothing sound of rain on a roof. There's been maybe a handful of times that's happened in 16 years so I'm not too worried about it.
As far as the walls,
OK! So what about putting the drywall strips between the studs on the exterior walls, then insulation, then drywall on decoupled interior walls? I realize that if I'm not going to do a full on room in a room with a decoupled ceiling I can only gain so much, but to get to some more agreeable dimensions I'm gonna have to put up interior walls anyway, so...You'd get more isolation from the second option, but still not a huge amount. Maybe 35 dB or so. That's ten times better than where you are now, but still not all that good. Doing BOTH of those would improve things even more...
That cinderblock wall at the back, as far as I could tell (with the little time I've been in there) it was totally dry.
Since that wall is the foundation of the garage, it doesn't make sense to me to add any mass to it. I mean, it's the earth behind it right? Since the top (plywood) part of that wall is the back wall of the garage (unfinished on the garage side as well), my thought is to leave that wall as is on the studio side (it'll be the actual back wall of the studio with a ton of bass trapping in front of it), add drywall layers in between the studs on the garage side, then insulation, then put up a decoupled wall in the garage and drywall that. Or the simpler, cheaper option would be to just insulate and drywall the garage side normally.
Does that make sense? What do you think?
As far as the budget, I know it's low, but it's what I have. All the treatments from my current studio are coming with me. I have at least 80 sheets of 2" 703 and a ton of rockwool. All the electrical in the new place is already wired up, the workshop has it's own panel, I'll just need to reroute the lines through the interior walls. So there's some savings there. I am going to put in a hardwood floor, but if money's tight, that doesn't have to happen immediately, I can live with just the slab for a bit if I have to.
We're cutting our cost of living expenses basically in half with this move (rent in Boston is...don't get me started), so hopefully we'll be able to save more money, which I can then of course put right back into the studio.
I should add....I charge $35 a song. That's gonna go up to $40 once the new studio is built (my girlfriend thinks I should raise it now, I said no one raises their rates BEFORE they build the fancy new studio) but regardless...I'm not competing with Bob Ludwig for clients. I want to keep my rates low because I want to encourage people who might otherwise self-master or worse, use L*ndr, to use me instead. I don't need better clients, the ones I have are great, I'd just like more.
So with the budget...we have great credit and it would probably not be too tough for me to get a loan to pour more money into making some super amazing space, but then I have more debt, I have to raise my rates more....eeehhhhhhh I just really don't think that's the route to go. I spent maybe 6-7k building my current room, and that included a bunch of tools and renovations to the rest of the loft. I've been making a living and doing professional work here for over half a decade, I ought to be able to do that at the new place without breaking the bank.
I was like....I need some straight answers from people who know WTF they're talking about. Thanks again man, really appreciate the help.But you are in the right place now
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Soundman2020
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Re: A few (hopefully!) simple questions
You could do that with John Sayers as well!If I was loaded, I'd hire Thomas Jouanjean in a second and then just sit back and write checks.
You might be surprised. Studio design and consulting might not be as expensive as you are imagining... You won't know unless you ask!Aiming to compete on that level is just out of the question.
Ah, well, there's your problem, right there! 'Nuf said...if I wanted to keep living in this super expensive city (Boston)
Can I make a suggestion? Don't set your goals so low! Set them high. Really high. Then find out if you can afford that, and if not lower them a bit. Rinse. Repeat. I've just been asked by a customer to design a place "like Blackbird, or Galaxy, or Abbey Road, only better", with pretty much carte blanche to do whatever crazy thing I can come up with. Then if it's over budget, we'll tone it down a bit. Then a bit more, until it fits within the budget. I'm REALLY psyched up to design this place, as you can imagine! If the customer would have said, "Just give me somthing humble, simply, and cheap, like ´Uncle Joe's Back Street El Cheapo Discount Studio And Flop House´ ", then maybe I wouldn't be so interested...My goal with the new room is simply: a little better than what I have now.
Shoot for the stars!
Yep! It sure can be, under certain conditions.I don't know if a few inches difference is enough to make it ok?
Nope! With an A frame ceiling you can't use a room mode calculator at all! They are only valid for purely rectangular rooms with mutually parallel walls, floor and ceiling. They use very simple mathematical models that require the room to be rectangular with six parallel sides. As soon as you add a seventh side, or angle one of the walls, then that invalidates those simple room mode calculators. They can still predict axial modes for the walls that are still parallel, and even tangential that involve only those, but they can't predict any axials in the direction of the angled or extra surfaces, nor any tangentials that involve those, and no obliques at all.QUESTION: with an A-frame ceiling, which starts at 8' and ends at 13'6", for the room mode calc, if I average that to 11'3" does that get me in the neighborhood of the ballpark?
There are ways of dealing with that...Out in the living room, where my drums live, I put mineral wool wrapped in fabric. Looks awful.
Sure! You can still put some up there. Indeed,. you should! But you were going a bit overboard with what you were suggesting...That's good to hear! I figured it's still a corner and what else would I do with that space? Seems like a good spot for some trapping, no?
Your number once concern in any room is the back wall. That's the one that is going to give you the most headaches. So if you have extra insulation laying around, the back wall bass traps make an excellent candidate.
Definitely a bad idea! Those thin cavities would reduce your isolation, not increase it. They would tilt the entire isolation curve to the left, so the low frequency isolation would be worse, and even though the high frequency isolation would be better, it's the lows that matter. If the lows are good, the highs will be much better.Would having a gap between the drywall and the plywood help any with the isolation? That will create resonant cavities right? Is it worth it?
Resonance is a strange beast... it can bite you when you aren't looking...
Ahhh! NOW you are getting the idea! !OK! So what about putting the drywall strips between the studs on the exterior walls, then insulation, then drywall on decoupled interior walls?
Yup.Right. That wall is fine, just like it is, for your outer-leaf. No need to add mass to that. Just build your inner-leaf wall in front of it.Since that wall is the foundation of the garage, it doesn't make sense to me to add any mass to it. I mean, it's the earth behind it right?
Bass trapping will NOT improve isolation! Not at all. Not one little bit. Insulation by itself does not provide isolation. It's great for treatment, but no use for isolation.(it'll be the actual back wall of the studio with a ton of bass trapping in front of it),
Think of it this way: If you have spilled water in your kitchen, then a sponge is a great way to mop it up. the bigger the sponge, the more spilled water it can mop up. That's how a bass trap works: it's a "sponge" that mops us spilled sound.
But if you take that kitchen sponge and put it across the end of the tap, then turn the tap on, the sponge is no use at all! The water just runs right through and out the other side. It does not stop it going through at all! That's your bass trap trying to stop sound getting out of the room: it does nothing.
In acoustics, isolation and treatment are two very different things. Almost opposites, in fact. The things that are good for isolation are lousy for treatment, and the things that are good for treatment are lousy for isolation.
That's a good start!All the treatments from my current studio are coming with me. I have at least 80 sheets of 2" 703 and a ton of rockwool.
She's right! Smart lady! Listen to her... Put the prices up now (year end, inflation, blame it on Donald Trump, or Obama, or even Bush, whatever) plus your years of experience and proven track record, blah-blah... then put them up again, once the new place is finished!I should add....I charge $35 a song. That's gonna go up to $40 once the new studio is built (my girlfriend thinks I should raise it now,
Why not? Set your sights high...I'm not competing with Bob Ludwig for clients.
I recently had a customer come to me after he had already hired one of the biggest names in the studio design business, but that guy botched the job, and the customer wanted me to do it. And he's happy with how it is going! Ten years ago, I would have not expected that I would have the chance to compete with one of the flashing neon light big names, but it happened, and I didn't reject it when the change came.
And it's not the first time I've been asked to fix a studio design that was messed up by another designer. If I would have had the mentality "I can never compete with the big boys", then I never would have been able to! And John Sayers would never have made me the admin of his forum, either. Perseverance, doing quality work, setting your sights high, and having a positive mental attitude is what will get you there (plus probably a little help from On High).
Then have two rates! A low one for "basic mastering", and a high rate for "advanced mastering"! You bet the little guy who tries your basic service today, will be happy to pay for the advanced service next time... assuming you are any good!I want to keep my rates low because I want to encourage people who might otherwise self-master
I do that with studio design: There's a basic rate for the customer who just needs to do some simple stuff in his bedroom studio, and a different rate entirely for the studio organization that wants a full new facility designed from the ground up. Hopefully, the guy I helped get his bedroom sound fantastic will one day be the guy who needs a full new facility!
Think big.
Maybe you need both!I don't need better clients, the ones I have are great, I'd just like more.
If Abbey Road came to me and said "We'd like you to re-design our place". (OK, so I can dream, can't I?), then I'd have to be an idiot to say "I don't need you as a client. You are too big. I just need lots more tiny bedroom studios...".
Think about it...
sounds like a typical business plan for a start-up with great potential, to me!we have great credit and it would probably not be too tough for me to get a loan to pour more money into making some super amazing space, but then I have more debt, I have to raise my rates more....eeehhhhhhh
That's what we are here for!I was like....I need some straight answers from people who know WTF they're talking about. Thanks again man, really appreciate the help.
I'm looking forward to seeing how your place progresses... I have a feeling that it can be a lot better than what you are thinking it can be...
Think big!
- Stuart -