Another drum practice room ! France

How thick should my walls be, should I float my floors (and if so, how), why is two leaf mass-air-mass design important, etc.

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Mendratil
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:20 pm
Location: Vaires sur Marne (Paris) / France

Another drum practice room ! France

Post by Mendratil »

Hey everybody,


Just a quick note : please excuse my english, don't hesitate to correct me if I use the wrong words, especially in the "building vocabulary", I'm not really used to it..! And most of all, huge thanks for this wealth of information that is john's forum, I never found that level of information on any french website !

EDIT : I edited my post for more clarity, I hope it will be easier for you to come along and follow my project ! :)


So me and my girlfriend recently moved in a new house, that's the good point ! Things is that I can't practice regularly on my drumset, and I think i'll become crazy very soon :twisted: So I started planning this project seriously (I read Rod's book, spent countless hours reading posts here, pretty time consuming I must admit !), but now i'm going round in circles ! You're my last hope guys and I have to request your mighty knowledge ! 8)


MY GOALS

As every fellow drummer, my goals are to have a drum space where I can practice daily without disturbing the neighbours ..! I'll also teach some of my students on the week end, so it has to be quiet enough that the neighbours can still be in their garden without me bothering them ( I guess aroung 45-50dB of noise from the outside would be fine ...). I didn't measured properly the sound of my drums because the actual space where I want to build my booth isn't sealed at all (there's almost no difference if I play doors closed or open), but I think i'm at a quite normal level (meaning : LOUD, around 105-110dB probably). I may record a couple of things here and there, but nothing for "professional use". My budget is more or less 10,000€ for the booth.


STARTING POINT


My first and biggest problem is that I can't really decide between building the drum room in the basement (low ceiling) or in the garden shed. Let's look at the basement first.

1°) THE BASEMENT
Main problem : Height of the ceiling

The house is recent (2008), the dimension of the outter leaf would be 4.33m x 3.8m (can be more or less if needed) x 2.18m high (ouch !).
Existing walls are made up of 20cm "hollow concrete block", I have a 10-15cm thick concrete slab and a 15cm concrete ceiling.

Regarding the isolation, I was thinking about beefing up the outter leaf by screwing 2 sheets of drywall with green glue in between on the existing walls and ceiling. Note that I'll also have to "close" one side of the room as it's an "open basement" (as you may see on the 1st picture). I'm not sure whether I'll build this wall using "Hollow concrete block" so that all the outter leaf will be built in the same material or if I can make a woodframe / fiberglass / drywall type of thing. I must admit that the woodframe / drywall option will be more convenient to build and (eventually) to remove if we move in the future but will it create a weak spot ? :(

Also, I was thinking about the ceiling height issue. Maybe I could use a suspended ceiling system (like this one but will it be enough to avoid the drum sound to leak in the rest of the house ? (living room is just above).

Plan Sous sol.jpg
Sous sol redim.jpg
Sous sol redim 2.jpg
2°) THE GARDEN SHED
Main problem : Sound isolation (4-5m from the closest neighbour !)

It's an old building (1960), at the moment the dimensions of the outter leaf would be 4.3m x 3.35m x 2.12m tall at one side and 3m10 at the other but I intend to build a flat concrete roof at around 3m height (more on that below).
Existing walls are made up of 20cm "hollow concrete block", a 8-10 cm concrete slab for the floor with 30cm of concrete for the foundation (under the existing walls), and an old fiber cement gradient roof (which will be removed if I go with the flat roof option). The shed is placed side by side with 2 garages (one on the left, one on the back) that may help me for the isolation on those two sides (note that each buildings have it's own separate walls).
Shed Front View.jpg
Shed Side View.jpg
View From the Door.jpg
View from the inside.jpg
View of the neighbour.jpg
As I said, the existing roof will be replaced by a flat roof, probably beams & slab + 5cm minimum (maybe 10 ? I'll have to ask the structural engineer) of concrete poured on top + several layers of waterproof materials. I intend to seal the existing window with hollow concrete blocks (I don't think that putting "full" concrete block would be usefull if I only put it at this place). I'll remove the existing door and replace it by an "acoustic" exterior door after replacing the existing "door frame" by a "beefed up" one. I'm also concerned about the HVAC because I don't want to create flanking path (of course) as well as I don't want it to bother the neighbours by it's own sound (chances are that it may be outside the shed... :roll: ).


INNER LEAF (I'll complete this section more precisely later on)

Depending on several points (mainly the place of the booth), I'll probably go with a wood frame composed of 2x6 wood studs with 20cm air gap filled with 20cm thick 28kg/m3 fiberglass insulation (just to be sure...is it ok to fill the entire 20cm air gap with fiberglass ?) and probably 3 layers of drywall with 1 or 2 tubes of green glue in between each sheets.

More details to come...

MAIN QUESTIONS


1°) Will it be possible to reach this level of isolation and if yes, which one would be easier to isolate ? The basement with the low ceiling ? (possibly less air gap and less layers of drywalls) Or the garden shed ? (not underground and closer to the neighbours). As everybody else, I'm a bit concerned about the end result. :lol: Especially if I build my booth in the garden shed : is it possible to isolate enough an exterior building (meaning : a "non underground" building) so that neighbours can be in their garden and don't be bothered by the sound of my drums ? When I say is it possible, I mean with my actual budget hehe :lol:

2°) For the shed, I contacted several builders for the roof issue. One of them suggested polystyrene slab (like this) instead of concrete slab (like this one . Which one will be better in my case ? He told me that it was an "acoustic" model but on the other hand, I know mass is better...Still, I was wondering if the concrete poured on the top would be enough for the mass and if polystyrene would be a better choice in this case ?..
Another possibility would be to use "metal roof plates" on which I can pour up to 12 cm of concrete. Will this be better in terms of acoustic isolation ?

3°) In France, the average thickness of drywall is more or less 12.5mm. I found 15mm and even 25mm plasterboards but they are either much more expansive or hard to find. My question is : if 12.5mm have more density / weight than a 15mm plasterboard, is it better to use the 12.5mm even if you guys generally recommand 15mm thickness minimum ?
By example : I have found 2.5x1.2 15mm plasterboard that weight 38.10kg (846kg/m²) and costs 11.87€ /m². On the other hand, I have a 2.5x1.2 12.5mm plasterboard that weight 45kg (1200kg/m²) and costs 8.20€ /m².
Which one to pick ? Density or thickness ? Isn't it better to put let's say 3 layers of 12.5mm instead of 2 layers of 15mm given that it's almost the same price and that it would be heavier ? I have read on the forum that thickness is better for low frequencies but I think it was also because the thickness added more mass compared to a thinner plasterboard, which is not my case here. I'm a bit confused sorry :?


Many thanks in advance for reading me, I hope I was clear enough for you to understand the overall project and be sure that I'll post news whenever I'll have any updates (whether it's construction or planning) !

See you around,
Etienne
Soundman2020
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Re: Another drum practice room ! France

Post by Soundman2020 »

Hi there "Mendratil". Welcome to the forum! :)
I don't want to start anything without being 100% sure about what I'm doing and the results I'll get
That's a very, very smart decision! Occasionally we get new members on the forum who have already started building and run into problems, ... then they need to tear down things they just built to make fix it, and do it right.
( I guess aroung 50dB of noise from the outside would be fine ...). I didn't measured properly the sound of my drums because the actual space where I want to build my booth isn't sealed at all (there's almost no difference if I play doors closed or open, you will see why in a minute), but I think i'm at a quite normal level (meaning : LOUD, around 110 probably)
Both of those numbers are very realistic.
outter leaf would be 4.33m x 3.8m (can be more or less if needed) x 2.18m tall (ouch !)
:shock: :ahh: Not so good. Especially for drums.
The other possibility is a shed in the back of the garden.
I like this option MUCH better. It makes more sense all around... except for the cost, of course!
I'll build a "standard" booth composed of 2x6 wood studs with 10cm thick 28kg/m3 fiberglass insulation and 2 layers of plasterboards (more details on thickness below) + green glue in between,
Good plan! But you could save a bit of money by using 2x4 studs, instead of 2x6. You don0t need 2x6 for what you are doing.
1°) Is my project viable ? What would you chose between the basement and the exterior shed ?
Yes, it is viable, especially in the shed. Not so much in the basement, but probably still usable.
I know mass is better but I was wondering if the concrete poured on the top would be enough for the mass and if polystyrene would be a better choice in this case ?..
Do they remove the polystyrene once the concrete has cured, or does it stay there? If they remove it, to leave just the concrete, then that would be a possibility, assuming that the concrete is thick enough for good isolation.
My question is : if 12.5mm have more density / weight than a 15mm plasterboard, is it better to use the 12.5mm even if you guys generally recommand 15mm thickness minimum ?
With the way you are building, 12.5mm would probably be fine. The outer leaf is very massive in your case, so the slightly thinner drywall would be acceptable.
I hope I was clear enough for you to understand the overall project
Perfectly clear! No problem.


- Stuart -
Mendratil
Posts: 2
Joined: Sun Feb 14, 2016 9:20 pm
Location: Vaires sur Marne (Paris) / France

Re: Another drum practice room ! France

Post by Mendratil »

Hey Stuart :) Thanks for tuning in, and thanks for your advices !

I don't know if you noticed, I edited my post yesterday (just before you answered apparently hehe) for more clarity and to "update" some of my questions. So with that in mind and your answers, here's my reply :wink:
Soundman2020 wrote:Hi there "Mendratil". Welcome to the forum! :)
Thanks man, you can call me Etienne 8) . I have to say that I'm impressed by how much time you put to help other people, even new members on the forum, you're awesome ! :shock: :D
Soundman2020 wrote::shock: :ahh: Not so good. Especially for drums.
Hehe, I knew you would say this ! :lol: But is it that bad only from an acoustic point of view ? (I mean the quality of the sound) Or is it bad for isolation purpose too ?
Soundman2020 wrote:I like this option MUCH better. It makes more sense all around... except for the cost, of course!
Ok cool, note that if I chose this option, my budget will probably be higher than the 10,000€ anounced earlier.
Soundman2020 wrote:Good plan! But you could save a bit of money by using 2x4 studs, instead of 2x6. You don0t need 2x6 for what you are doing.
Good point, I just chose 2x6 instead of 2x4 because it was easier to find as strange as it seems. I didn't find 2x4 in the usual hardware store but I'll sawmills or other stuff like that on internet ! About the drywall, would you think that a 2 drywall system would be enough or is it worth it to put a 3rd one with green glue in between (especially if I'm going to use 12.5mm drywall) ?
Soundman2020 wrote:Do they remove the polystyrene once the concrete has cured, or does it stay there? If they remove it, to leave just the concrete, then that would be a possibility, assuming that the concrete is thick enough for good isolation.
Actually, the polystyrene will stay there, it is a part of the roof. Meaning that if I put nothing else on this kind of ceiling, if you look up you will see the concrete beams with polystyrene slab in between. As I said when I edited my 1st post, the plan is to pour 5cm of concrete minimum. I'm considering 10-12cm if it's possible, I'll ask my "builder".
Soundman2020 wrote:With the way you are building, 12.5mm would probably be fine. The outer leaf is very massive in your case, so the slightly thinner drywall would be acceptable.
Ok good, thank you.


Don't hesitate if you want to re-check my 1st post with the editing (if you have the time :oops: :lol: ). Just a quick question to add :


EDIT : NEW QUESTIONS
1°) What will give me the best results in terms of "drywall placement" ? I mean, let's say I'll go with 4 layers of drywall for my system, will it be better to put 2 layers on the outter leaf and 2 layers on the inner leaf ? Or maybe 1 outter leaf and 3 inner leaf ? Overall, considering the fact that the outter leaf is made of hollow concrete block, is it necessary to beef it up with drywall + green glue ? Or will it be overkill ?
Does it have to have the same amount of drywall layer as the inner leaf or is it better to put more layers on the inner leaf ? I was thinking about this option so I can be sure that my outter leaf will be 100% air tight. Any advice on this point ?

2°) I found another kind of drywall that has a density of 900kg/m3 (each panel = 36kg for 2.5mx1.2m and 13mm thick) and cost 4,45€ / m² versus the "Fermacell" that I talked about in my first post which has a density of 1200kg/m3 (each panel = 45kg for 2.5mx1.2m and 12.5mm thick) but cost 8,20€ / m².
For my inner leaf, I calculated that I can have more mass for less money with 3 layers of the cheaper drywall (each panel = 36kg for a 2.5mx1.2m) compared to 2 layers of Fermacell. I kinda already asked the question and I don't want to save just a little bit of money to realize that my system don't isolate enought at the end !! But I want to be sure to have understand the principle here : will it be better to go with 3 layers of the cheaper drywall in this case ? I could even put 4 layers for almost the same price of 2 layers of Fermacell. I'm a bit confused about the fact that paying less will give me better results :shock:

3°) Related to my frame : I was going with the wooden frame way because it seems to be the most used type of framing and you guys semms to recommand it.
Maybe i'm just missing something, but here in France a 50*150cm by 4meters length piece of wood (approximately a 2x6) costs around 11.50€ each. I check the prices on US websites like "home depot" and I saw that it costs around 4-5$ each, which makes a big difference ! Then, I was wondering if steel frame could be an option ? A steel stud only cost something like 2€ or 3€ for me (3m length). But then comes the questions ... :cry:
I'm not sure about the weight this kind of frame can support ? I know Rod talks about light & heavy gauge but I don't really understand what it represent in terms of dimensions and what would be the equivalent here in france ? I saw 48mm and 70mm type of "floor stud" (sorry I don't know the word for the one you bolt in the floor :oops: Here's a "link") Will 70mm be enough in these "beefed up" kind of wall system ?
I was also wondering about the ceiling frame...I can't really imagine how the "studs" (wrong word probably :( ) should be placed to make a separated framed ceiling : should it be screwed direclty in the inner walls ? Should it rest of the top of the inner wall framing ? I'm kinda lost here because in every videos I watched, the "MF" ceiling studs is screwed and supported by the existing ceiling, which I obviously don't want !!

Still so many things to learn...but I'm really into it now and I can't wait to start my project ! :)

Anyway, thank you again for your time guys,

See you around,
Etienne
Soundman2020
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Joined: Thu Aug 21, 2008 10:17 am
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Re: Another drum practice room ! France

Post by Soundman2020 »

Not so good. Especially for drums.
Hehe, I knew you would say this ! :lol: But is it that bad only from an acoustic point of view ? (I mean the quality of the sound) Or is it bad for isolation purpose too ?
For acoustics. The low ceiling is the problem. With the ceiling that low, you can't get the overhead mics in a good location: they are so close to the ceiling that the reflections from cause "coloration" of the sound: phase cancellation, comb filtering, etc. And with a ceiling that low, there's also no place to put a lot of treatment up there, to help with that.
Good point, I just chose 2x6 instead of 2x4 because it was easier to find as strange as it seems. I didn't find 2x4 in the usual hardware store but I'll sawmills or other stuff like that on internet !
Go with whichever is cheaper! But also take into account that the 2x6's will eat up an extra 5cm on each wall of the room, as compared to the 2x4's
About the drywall, would you think that a 2 drywall system would be enough or is it worth it to put a 3rd one with green glue in between (especially if I'm going to use 12.5mm drywall) ?
That depends on how much isolation you want. I didn't do the math, but my guess is that you'd be fine with 2 layers of 16mm drywall plus GreenGlue in between.

However, it's not just about how much mass you put on the leaf? It's also about the size of the air gap between the two leaves, how much insulation you put in there, and how good your seals are, all around.
As I said when I edited my 1st post, the plan is to pour 5cm of concrete minimum. I'm considering 10-12cm if it's possible, I'll ask my "builder".
That should work fine.
1°) What will give me the best results in terms of "drywall placement" ? I mean, let's say I'll go with 4 layers of drywall for my system, will it be better to put 2 layers on the outter leaf and 2 layers on the inner leaf ?
You already HAVE the outer-leaf! You only need the inner-leaf now. The outer leaf is the existing shell of the building, which is concrete block. So all you need now, is to put up the framing and nail drywall to only ONE side of it.
is it necessary to beef it up with drywall + green glue ? Or will it be overkill ?
Actually, that would be "underkill", in the sense that adding a couple of layers of drywall on top of the concrete will do nothing useful. It will only increase the mass very slightly, and the results would not be noticeable. what you do need to do, is to seal the surface of the existing leaf as well as you can, with masonry sealer, or even with a good quality paint, to close of the porous surface of the concrete block and the mortar. You also need to seal all holes, gaps, cracks etc. with special care. Air-tight seals are critical to good isolation.

2°) I found another kind of drywall that has a density of 900kg/m3 (each panel = 36kg for 2.5mx1.2m and 13mm thick) and cost 4,45€ / m²
That would be fine. Excellent, in fact.
I was wondering if steel frame could be an option ?
It can be, yes. You could go with steel framing, provided that you use the heavy gauge steel that is meant for load-bearing walls.
I'm not sure about the weight this kind of frame can support ?
Check with the manufacturer. Explain to him what you are doing, and that you need to support a ceiling that will have a dead-load of around 30 kg/m2, and spanning whatever distance it is that you figure out. He will be able to tell you which steel framing members are able to safely carry that load.
I was also wondering about the ceiling frame...I can't really imagine how the "studs" (wrong word probably :( ) should be placed to make a separated framed ceiling
Joists: When a "stud" is laid horizontally to support a ceiling or floor, it is called a joist.
should it be screwed direclty in the inner walls ? Should it rest of the top of the inner wall framing ?
Yes. Correct.
Still so many things to learn...
Yep! And it never stops... :) Learning about acoustics is a life-long task...


- Stuart -
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