Re: Help with Planning & Building of my Recording Studio
Posted: Fri Jan 11, 2019 6:15 am
Great work dude!
Greg
Greg
A World of Experience
https://johnlsayersarchive.com/
I drew some lines as Stuart mentioned but I'm not sure what I'm suppose to be looking at and also not sure which baffles should be thicker....do you mean the wood needs to be thicker/doubled up or the duct liner?double up on the baffle thickness at entry and exit: Imagine tracing a straight-line path directly from the duct entry point to the register outlet point, and seeing how many obstructions you hit, and how thick they are. If all you find is one thin layer of MDF, then you should do something about that!
The baffle dividers themselves can be 1/2" MDF, but if you had an entry and exit right next to one another like my design: Then as you can see, I doubled up my 1/2" MDF where the sound could possibly make it's way through directly to the outlet. I personally don't see where there would be an issue like this in your design short of your exterior shell needing to maintain the mass of your leaves (two layers of 5/8" drywall = ~1" MDF).I'm also still trying to understand what Stuart meant
The left one looks like the cross sectional area around the ends of the baffles shrinks down due to the angled top. Corners like that are where you can benefit from oversized cross sectional area to help with pressure drop. I think the middle design would be great!In case I did understand what was being recommended, I drafted yet a few other examples of the silencer box I plan to use. The last one on the right is the one posted about above for the CR. The two others have longer pathways where the baffles really doesn't allow for a straight line to be drawn from inlet to outlet register. I'm thinking the design in the middle is suitable and "should" work fine but if you feel the last one on the left is even better then I'll just do that haha.
Woah! I'm in Canada too but we are only at -6 and with wind chill feels like -11 which is way too cold for my liking! Get warm dude!Enjoy the weekend folks! It's -47 with the windchill here in Ottawa.
Here in Alberta, the thickest MDF I can find is 3/4" as well. I bought a bunch of 1/2" sheets that I will glue together.I bought some 3/4" (actual size) MDF as that's the thickest they had at the store.
Assuming your inner leaf is two layers of 5/8" drywall, then yes, you do need 1" of MDF in order to match the surface density of your leaf. You could totally add the extra 1/4" of MDF to make a total of 1" thick. Or like you said, build a desk out of the 3/4" material and get a bunch of 1/2" sheets like I'm doing. Either way, you end up with 1" total.Do I really need to go to exactly 1" thick?
I wouldn't worry about the sound getting from one room to the other through those ducts as your silencer boxes will take care of that crap.As you can see I have two separate branches coming out of the rectangular trunk. Each branch is for a different room. I'm wondering if I could potentially run just one single 10" branch to the top of the ceiling and split up there versus down at the trunk level. I would save on materials but I'm concerned that I might risk taking away isolation since the path from one room to another is shorten quite a bit if the sound was to travel inside the ducts. Does this make any sense and if so does it matter if I run a single or double duct run/branch up to the ceiling?
Do you have any pointers about making those amazing looking duct corners? They're so smooth and flawless! Mine are HORRIBLE.Here's a quick sample of how I plan to run my ducts to the silencers.
Sure thing man! I had a hard time figuring out the same but I ended up finding this link below with shows you how to create a 90 degree elbow. I tried real quick to make 45s but for some reason was having issues.Do you have any pointers about making those amazing looking duct corners? They're so smooth and flawless! Mine are HORRIBLE.
For ceilings you pretty much always want it to be insulation and you can add devices to liven up the room if need be. Plus, acoustically speaking, inside out ceilings allow you the maximum height which is the biggest draw back in home studios.I wanted to make sure that there's clear added benefits of doing this versus conventional wall construction with the drywall on the inside of the room.
What are your thoughts on doing this? I would think the main reason why it's a good thing is that the insulation is exposed and probably helps a lot with sound absorption versus having one big solid mass to have the sound bounce on right? Not to mention having to put the added treatment on top of the drywall surface.
And like control room side walls, live room walls can be either or. Again, inside out will give more space which is very much desired in a live room. Now, with traditional walls, you will have a lively room that you have to deaden/dampen to your desired response. So, start live and tame it. If you go inside out, you could leave your stud bays empty and have a similar effect. Or, you could fill them with insulation and start with a dead room and liven it up with acoustic treatment devices/materials.My other question is would you recommend doing so in both the Control Room and Live Room or is that "design" mostly for specific rooms?
Hi Greg,Gregwor wrote:For ceilings you pretty much always want it to be insulation and you can add devices to liven up the room if need be. Plus, acoustically speaking, inside out ceilings allow you the maximum height which is the biggest draw back in home studios.I wanted to make sure that there's clear added benefits of doing this versus conventional wall construction with the drywall on the inside of the room.
What are your thoughts on doing this? I would think the main reason why it's a good thing is that the insulation is exposed and probably helps a lot with sound absorption versus having one big solid mass to have the sound bounce on right? Not to mention having to put the added treatment on top of the drywall surface.
For walls, inside out will give you a bigger room (acoustically). Sometimes this is a bad thing as it could cause your room to fail the room mode calculator tests. I know in my control room, I can't really go bigger due to the ceiling height. So, I'm using a combination of traditional and inside out walls to get a more square room that passes all of the tests.
For the rear/back wall of a control room, you basically always want it to be stuffed with insulation and/or hangers. Also, you want it as deep acoustically as you can get it. This is a good candidate for inside out. The same can be said about your front wall. For your side walls, I think it's safe to say use either or.
And like control room side walls, live room walls can be either or. Again, inside out will give more space which is very much desired in a live room. Now, with traditional walls, you will have a lively room that you have to deaden/dampen to your desired response. So, start live and tame it. If you go inside out, you could leave your stud bays empty and have a similar effect. Or, you could fill them with insulation and start with a dead room and liven it up with acoustic treatment devices/materials.My other question is would you recommend doing so in both the Control Room and Live Room or is that "design" mostly for specific rooms?
From a construction stand point, standing up inside out walls is dangerous and difficult. For exterior walls, you need to fix your vapour barrier to the back side of the wall.
The other major difference is this: Aesthetics. Do you want drywall with devices hung on them? Or you do you want fabric with built in devices and/or devices hung on it? Personally, I hate drywall mudding and would rather stretch fabric over studs and cover up the seams with wood and things like that. Granted, this will cost more than some muds and frustration.
Greg
It saves you space because most of your treatment can then go in between the studs / joists, rather than being hung on the drywall. Considering that acoustic devices can easily be 3 to 6" inches thick, having most of that tucked inside the wall, between the studs, saves you space.I'm trying to understand how doing inside out walls and ceilings saves you space as the airgap between the leaf supporting structures needs to be bigger than traditional walls in order to get the same amount of TL... so either the inside out walls need to go further into the useable room space or the outer walls need to be moved further out. I can imagine maybe saving around an inch or so but not much more...
If possible, yes. But don't forget that the place where the resonant frequency is higher, is the place the defines your limit on isolation.1) Am I right to assume that walls and ceilings should have the same resonant frequency?
Why is the vapor barrier on the OUTER leaf? You live in a cold climate, so the outer-leaf will always be colder than the inner leaf in winter. Therefore, your vapor barrier should be up against the INNER leaf, not the outer leaf. It should always be on the warmer surface, never the colder surface, and never in the middle of the wall. If your building code does require a vapor barrier, then double-check this, to make sure you have it in the right place! If you were just finishing the attic without an inner leaf, then that would be fine, but you are not doing that: You are creating a new inner-leaf, and that's where the vapor barrier should be.Asphalt roof shingles -> 5/8" OSB sheathing -> 16" roof scissor trust filled with 12" of roxull insulation) -> 1/2" vapor barrier panel (Enermax). I'm wondering how I could possibly plug in these numbers into the spreadsheet?
The constant refers basically to the resilience of the characteristics of the air. It takes into account the density of the air and the speed of sound in the cavity. The speed of sound changes due to the presence and type of insulation, but does not change due to the depth. So there is one constant of your cavity is empty (no insulation), and another if it is filled with insulation. If you only fill it part way (not the complete cavity depth), then the constant is somewhere in between those two. But to answer your question: the constant only changes due to insulation: not due to cavity depth.One thing that I'm wondering is since "c" is a constant for if the cavity/gap is insulated or not, in my case my outer leaf has a 16" roof trust but only 12" of it is insulated. Does that change anything? Would i need to use a different constant for this?
You need enough distance across the gap from the surface of the outer-leaf sheathing to the surface of the inner-leaf sheathing. That's all. As long as that distance is correct, and the mass is correct, and you are using the correct constant, then the MSM resonant frequency will be correct.5) I'm having a hard time understanding the air gap requirements for inside out ceilings and walls. Building inside out walls or ceilings would mean that I'd need to increase air gap in between the two structures correct?
... and then you will have to waste substantial space inside the room to add your treatment on top of the wall surfaces, and you won't be able to cover all of the wall surfaces anyway. Your ceiling area is very small, and I doubt that it will be nearly enough to provide what you need.I'm starting to think that in my case with the type of room I have I'll be doing inside out ceiling (which isn't very big) and then stick to regular construction for the slopped walls and side knee walls.
Looking forward to seeing those!I'll upload some new pictures soon!
Ok noted! When you refer to "the place" do you mean either the outer or inner leaf? because I fairly confident that the density of my inner leaf will likely be higher than the outer leaf.But don't forget that the place where the resonant frequency is higher, is the place the defines your limit on isolation.
When the construction was done, I had no choice to install a vapor barrier so yes the vapor barrier is currently on the warm side of the outer leaf. (inside the house) I know that's the code around here. I don't see how putting it up against the inner leaf will change anything? Do you mean on the warm side of the inner leaf? If that's the case then my HVAC ducts would be exposed to the cold as well no? It would also introduce cold air in between the two leafs no? I'll have to check with local building codes but I'm curious to know how this is done. I'm also wondering how this would work with inside out walls/ceilings...I can't see having two layers of drywall then the stud cavity filled with insulation and then the vapor barrier. I'm sure I'm missing something since having the vapor barrier on the warm side of an inside out inner leaf would defeat the purpose of doing inside out no?Why is the vapor barrier on the OUTER leaf? You live in a cold climate, so the outer-leaf will always be colder than the inner leaf in winter. Therefore, your vapor barrier should be up against the INNER leaf, not the outer leaf. It should always be on the warmer surface, never the colder surface, and never in the middle of the wall. If your building code does require a vapor barrier, then double-check this, to make sure you have it in the right place! If you were just finishing the attic without an inner leaf, then that would be fine, but you are not doing that: You are creating a new inner-leaf, and that's where the vapor barrier should be.
Ok right! I wasn't referring so much to the cavity depth but more the fact that my roof cavity is only 90% insulated versus 100% like a wall would be. I think I'll be fine with using an in between figure.The constant refers basically to the resilience of the characteristics of the air. It takes into account the density of the air and the speed of sound in the cavity. The speed of sound changes due to the presence and type of insulation, but does not change due to the depth. So there is one constant of your cavity is empty (no insulation), and another if it is filled with insulation. If you only fill it part way (not the complete cavity depth), then the constant is somewhere in between those two. But to answer your question: the constant only changes due to insulation: not due to cavity depth.
So really when we talk about "the air gap or space between leafs" that's really the distance from surface to surface correct? So when using and filling out Greg's spreadsheet...the input box for the gap is actually the distance from the stud to stud and not what you're referring to from surface to surface correct?You need enough distance across the gap from the surface of the outer-leaf sheathing to the surface of the inner-leaf sheathing. That's all. As long as that distance is correct, and the mass is correct, and you are using the correct constant, then the MSM resonant frequency will be correct.