Drum Riser for stage/live sound

[Sam Amato]

EDIT - I just realized I may not be posting in the appropriate forum. If that is the case, please advise.

Background Information (skip to "Getting To The Point" if you don't care )
The church I play at and sometimes run sound for is in need of a new drum riser for Sunday services. They have been using a solution I thought was pretty cool when I first saw it but then realized is a nightmare acoustically. I wish I had a picture of it but basically they have a bunch of 5 gallon buckets sitting upside down on the stage and on top of those they set a thick piece of plywood (cut to a circular shape) large enough to set the drum kit, stands, etc. on. The circle is actually 2 half circles attached by hinges. The whole setup is really quick and easy to setup/strike and store when not in use. It is great for visual purposes. It gets the drums up nice and high.

After hearing the result of this and thinking about what I've learned on this forum, I realized what an awful situation this was creating acoustically. The room is tough to mix in anyway and the drums are the main reason so to set the drum kit on a big drum head/resonating mechanism is probably not a great idea. I explained this to the Worship Leader and he decided to put the drums right on the stage floor this past Sunday. Instant improvement. According to the FOH engineer, the kick drum sound was much better (fuller, punchier) and the snare and cymbals were not as overbearing as they usually are.

Getting To The Point
Now the problem is the Pastor and Worship Leader do not like the look of the drums flat on the stage. They want a riser. The ideas they have are other risers that would create the same problem as before to some degree. I'm suggesting the type of riser I've read about on this forum - insulation such as OC 703 or Rockwool underneath some Plywood/MDF/whatever.

One problem I'm seeing with doing it the way I'd like to is that the drum risers I've seen here seem to be only about 6 inches off the ground. I don't think that will be high enough for what they want to see. The buckets they were using before are at least 2 feet high I think.

The next challenge is whatever we end up with needs to be pretty easy to move, as it will be setup before and put away after every service. I was thinking maybe mount some wheels to the back of it and handles on the sides, toward the front, so that a couple guys can tilt it up and roll it away. I think this would also require that the insulation be wrapped in plastic possibly and attached to the mass above it.

Questions
1) Can this type of drum riser be made to be at least 1 foot high, or maybe higher?
2) If "yes" to #1, what would be the easiest, most cost effective way to go about that while still keeping it quick and easy to setup/strike/store?

Additional Information
Budget - under $200 USD hopefully
Drum Riser Size (surface area) - I think 6'x6' would be about right

I've attached a terrible quality picture of the stage, which I had to compress further to make it fit the forum attachment size limit All I have at the moment. Hopefully it gives some idea of what's going on but I'm not sure if that really matters anyway.

[Soundman2020]

That's an interesting situation, Sam! As a church live sound engineer myself, I feel very much identified with this.

What I would suggest is to raise a platform on concrete blocks, and put the drum riser on top of that. Concrete blocks are normally 6" high, roughly, so three layers would get you a foot and a half, plus the platform and drum riser to get you up to around 2 feet.

Concrete Block-01.jpg

So you'd have your blocks dry stacked in a stable and safe configuration, then a platform made from a couple of layers of 3/4" plywood, then the riser itself, built the way Glenn suggests. Cut hand-holds along the edge of the platform so it can be picked up and carried away easily by a couple of stage hands. You could even glue carpet to both sides to make it more aesthetically acceptable, and help a bit with damping resonance (Yeah, I know I don't normally recommend carpet on studio floors, but this isn't a studio! It's a raised platform raised above a stage on an open lattice of massive concrete blocks: not the same at all, so carpet would be fine here). You could also have black fabric permanently attached around the edge of the platform, as a "skirt" that hangs down to hide the ugly concrete blocks, or maybe have that on Velcro strips so it can be taken off when it needs to be washed.

2 feet is a big step up, so I'd suggest having some type of open-frame steps for the drummer to be able to get up and down safely. Like this:

metal-steps-01-B.jpg

metal-and-wood-steps-05.jpg

The best option, of course, would be to buy some proper dismountable stage units of the right size and height, along with the correct step unit:

modular-dismountable-stage-05-B.jpg

modular-dismountable-stage-04-B.jpg

Those are modular, so you can buy as many or as few modules as you need.

However, knowing churches as I do, that idea will likely get vetoed in favor of the "cheaper" DIY version with concrete blocks... Especially considering that the current solution is about as cheap as you can get! And about as dangerous as you can get. And about as acoustically terrible as you can get...

Anyway, there are some ideas for you. If it were my church, I'd push for the idea of proper modular staging, which could then be added to later if the need arises, for whatever reason (choir, drama, or just a bigger drum kit, etc.)


- Stuart -

[Sam Amato]

Thanks Stuart. Actually, I think what they are considering is the modular stages you are suggesting so I think they are okay with the cost of that. I just thought that would be a bad idea acoustically because it's still a raised platform and open underneath. I thought that would still have the drum head effect to some degree.

[Sam Amato]

The problem I see with your first suggestion of concrete blocks-plywood-riser is I think they would consider it too much work to setup and breakdown but maybe they'd go for it. That idea does help though because I wasn't sure if just elevating that type of riser would work, because it is still open underneath. I guess the riser with insulation provides enough dampening that it's not a problem?

Is it essential that the base be concrete blocks? Could it be some sort of modular wood frame, or that's not heavy enough?

[Sam Amato]

Does this seem like it will get the job done?

Riser_1.jpg

Riser_2.jpg

Riser_3.jpg

Riser_4.jpg

Riser_5.jpg

[Soundman2020]

Does this seem like it will get the job done?

Nope! It isn't "floating". There is a direct flanking path (mechanical connection) from the deck that the drums kit is sitting on, all the way down though the legs. That is not the concept of a drum riser. With Glenn's design, there is no mechanical flanking path.

- Stuart -

[Sam Amato]

Well, yeah but when you pointed me in the direction of those modular stages I figured you were saying that was ok. No? I'm confused.

Wait, did you forget this is for stage use? I don't think flanking is a big concern or any concern at all is it? I just need to eliminate the "drum head" effect I think.

[Soundman2020]

Good luck.

[Sam Amato]

???

You mad at me or something???

Seriously, I would really appreciate your help. I asked some questions about your initial response but you didn't answer so I just don't understand what you mean or how what you presented is ok and this isn't. Like I said, I'm confused.

[Sam Amato]

I hope somebody can help me understand. I understand that what I've designed here has a direct flanking path from the deck of the riser through the legs to the floor. The drums also have direct flanking path to the floor when they are sitting directly on the floor, as they were last Sunday, but that provided the sound that we want at this point. Now we simply want the drums higher without getting the "drum head" effect we were when the drums were on a riser made of plywood on top of 5 gallon buckets.

Don't the "proper dismountable stage units" mentioned toward the end of the 2nd post in this thread also have a direct flanking path to the floor? Can you see why I'm confused? I do see how the option Stuart mentioned with the concrete blocks would not have this issue but the dismountable stage units were presented as the "best option" so...

I can re-work my design to be more like the concrete block method but I'm trying to figure out if that is necessary and if I can accomplish more or less the same thing without using concrete blocks.

[Sam Amato]

Here's an attempt to do it as per Stuarts first suggestion except I'm not using concrete blocks. Don't know if this is ok or not.

It's not one piece anymore which presents problems I still need to solve.

I'd also like to know if fluffy fiberglass insulation would be ok for this or if it needs to be Rockwool or OC703.

RiserV2_1.jpg

RiserV2_2.jpg

RiserV2_3.jpg

[Sam Amato]

I'm hoping to make a recommendation to these guys and send the design/plans to the master carpenter who works with the church so he can get started.

In case this thread has become to long and confusing the basic idea is this:

We like the sound of the drums when they are on the floor, with no riser. We need a riser only for the visual of it. They don't like the drums not being elevated. We'd like a riser that gets the drums up about 15" or so from the floor and makes the drums sound as close as possible to being on the floor.

I'd love it if my first design accomplished that but if it doesn't, it doesn't. If my second design works, we'll build that. The modular, dismountable stages Stuart suggested are not going to be feasible; as Stuart suspected, they don't want to spend that kind of money. If it has to be done as Stuart recommended, with concrete blocks, I'll suggest it but I don't know if they'll go for it. I wouldn't be too crazy about it either, as I'm often one of the people involved in setting up and breaking down.

I believe my second design is as Stuart recommended with the notable exception that I'm using 4"x4"s instead of concrete, right?

Any help getting this design figured out would be greatly appreciated.

[Sam Amato]

Just in case anyone wants to chime in...

I'd really like to know if the design in the 5th post of this thread would be effective in stopping the "drum head" effect for this riser. I understand that there will be flanking from the riser platform to the stage but would the 2 layers of wood (probably MDF) and the compressed insulation provide sufficient dampening to stop the platform from becoming a resonating surface?

For the past 2 Sundays the drums have been right on the stage floor and we're happy with the sound, we just need the drums up higher for looks.

I can't do the design from the 11th post of this thread because it is not portable enough. Same goes for anything involving concrete blocks. Can't do the portable, modular stages because of price (plus, I can't figure out why that's better than my first design).

If my design is no good please help me come up with one that is and is still easy setup/breakdown/store. Preferably one piece that can be rolled away. There must be a way to do this.

[Sam Amato]

I'm thinking of taking a safer approach to this project and going with a slight variation of the Glenn drum riser, just with a little more insulation to make the whole thing around 8" high. This is not as high as we'd like it but will suffice. I don't want to have them spend money on something that might not work. I need to get this done as soon as possible so going with a tried and true method seems like the right move.

I'll try to document the build here with pics and post the results for anyone interested.

I have a couple questions/concerns about this plan.

If I stack 2 or 3 layers of, let's say 3.5" Rockwool, then put a couple layers of MDF on top - would this create an unstable or wobbly structure? I haven't worked with the stuff before so I have no idea.

How much would you estimate the Rockwool would compress in this scenario? Let's say I have 3 layers of 3.5" Rockwool stacked, 2 layers of 3/4" MDF. With nothing on top that's about 12" high. I'm wondering how high that will end up once there is a 5 piece drum kit with 3 or 4 cymbals/stands, a 200 pound drummer, a few mic stands and some small lights on top. Dimensions would be somewhere around 6'x6', or maybe as big as 8'x8'

[Soundman2020]

I understand that what I've designed here has a direct flanking path from the deck of the riser through the legs to the floor.

Right. That's the problem: What is the stage floor made of? That's what I would be worried about. Most church stages are just wood over a cavity... If you are lucky and have a solid concrete stage, then it's not too much of a problem, but if the floor is wood...

Now we simply want the drums higher without getting the "drum head" effect we were when the drums were on a riser made of plywood on top of 5 gallon buckets.

A solid platform, supported on something non-resonant, and with good decoupling, is the best solution.

Don't the "proper dismountable stage units" mentioned toward the end of the 2nd post in this thread also have a direct flanking path to the floor?

Yes, and that's why you need to drum riser! To partially decouple the drum kit from the platform, and hence through the platform legs to the stage.

Can you see why I'm confused? I do see how the option Stuart mentioned with the concrete blocks would not have this issue but the dismountable stage units were presented as the "best option" so...

The flanking path is not an issue at all, if the platform is already decoupled from the drum kit, with a drum riser.

I'd also like to know if fluffy fiberglass insulation would be ok for this or if it needs to be Rockwool or OC703.

I would only use proper OC-703, as Glenn designed it.

We like the sound of the drums when they are on the floor, with no riser. We need a riser only for the visual of it

You seem to be confusing the term "riser" with "platform". The reason you need the riser is not visual: the reason you need the riser is acoustic: to decouple the drum kit from whatever is below it. What you need for the visual aspect, is a raised platform, not a riser. The riser goes on top of the platform.

We'd like a riser that gets the drums up about 15" or so from the floor and makes the drums sound as close as possible to being on the floor.

A riser will give you about 5" or so, so you'd need a raised platform 10" high, plus the riser.

Here's an attempt to do it as per Stuarts first suggestion except I'm not using concrete blocks. Don't know if this is ok or not.

That would work fine.

variation of the Glenn drum riser, just with a little more insulation to make the whole thing around 8" high.

I would definitely not do that. It would be unstable, physically, plus you'd be de-tuning it from the way Glenn designed it.

would this create an unstable or wobbly structure?

Yes. Plus the uneven loading would probably mean that it starts tilting to one side after a while.

- Stuart -