Listening Room Construction in an Apartment

[DIY_NEWBIE]

Hello everyone,

Thank you in advance for all help, and time taken in replying to all the posts in the forum! I've been spending days reading through them and the amount of information is mind boggling but can get confusing for a newbie like me.

Purpose and overview: I am trying to construct a listening room/music practice room. The aim is to create a room where I can have a quiet environment to listen to music and to play a piano at odd hours without disturbing the neighbours and family members if possible. (55db reduction?)

Location and additional details: I live in an apartment on the 10th floor in Singapore. Typical 20 storey flat, with concrete support pillars/beams (floor and ceiling are concrete) and internal/external rooms are constructed out of brick walls.

I guess the most obvious sound transmission path would be the floors above and below me (Standalone apartment unit, hence no neighbours to the left and right). The apartment has concrete ceilings and floors, with exterior walls in brick. I intend to chop an existing living room to build the listening room, hence I will need to build the 2 remaining walls (one of the walls is the exterior wall), with the dimensions of the room at 4.6m by 5.5m, ceiling height 2.6m.

Budget: I'm budgeting 15-18K USD for the project including all labour and materials. Sorry I wasn't clear earlier, this isn't exactly a DIY, more like i'm trying to save some money by using a contractor to do the construction but with me providing instructions and supervision. What i'm also considering doing is getting them to build the doors as suggested in the sticky links rather than buying a ready made acoustic door as that would already wipe out more than a quarter of the budget from the prices i'm being quoted.

Floorplan:
Boxes in red are existing brickwalls.
Boxes in green are proposed additional walls.

Flooring:
I gather from numerous posts that any form of floating floor would be pointless for various reasons in an apartment with load bearing issues, hence i'm going to just leave it as concrete and overlay with wood just for aesthetic reasons.

Ceiling:
Two 10mm gypsum boards glued together with 10cm airgap attached with springs, stuffed with rockwool.

Walls:
I intend to build the outer brick wall layer first and glue two 12mm gypsum boards together as the second inner layer with a 10cm airgap stuffed with rockwool. Here is where i get a little confused...

Method 1: In the first link, the inner wall sits on a vibration isolation board (Iso-Sill plate isolation) and does not have any connections to the brick wall. (like Beeros' walls)

Method 2: In the second link, the inner wall studs are attached to the wall, and the channels are decoupled from the studs via sound isolation clips.

frame rests on floor and does not touch brick wall
Studs attached to wall

1) Given the above, is method 1 or method 2 better?

2) I've been reading the FAQ on drywalls and just wanted to be sure I understood this post from the FAQ correctly:
"In all cases, ¼" spacers should be used under panels until fastened, then pull the spacers and caulk before repeating for the next layer. "
Info on wall construction

Can I please confirm that this means the frame should be decoupled from the floor via an iso-sill plate, and never touches the floor/ceiling directly? Is the iso-sill plate or the RSIC clip preferable instead? RSIC clip link

Method 2 seems to be a solution to solve the problem of decoupling the frame from the floor and looks easier to construct. The channels itself are decoupled from the brickwall via isolation clips too. Is this workable? (though it appears less preferable as there is contact with the brick wall)

In Beeros' build, he seems to be using this L shaped clip to lift the frame off the floor instead. Or am I looking at it wrongly and the frame is actually touching the floor and ceiling, and the L shaped clip is just to hold it upright in place? Scroll to middle for pic of Beeros' framing method

The drywall itself is then spaced 1/4" from the floor and ceiling, and then caulked. Is my understanding correct please?

3) Do you think the additional walls and ceiling is sufficient enough for the purposes of playing piano/listening to music at odd hours or will the flanking paths via the flooring defeat everything?

4) I checked prices for doors and they are crazily expensive. Is there any point in spending so much money on the door given this isn't exactly a room within a room (no decoupled floor)? Can I get away with buying just one expensive door, and buying a solid wood door and attempting to install seals myself for the second door. Is this a good idea, and if so, I assume the better door should be the one in the inner room instead?

OR are these acoustic doors a waste of money for my purposes, and I should just stick with solid doors and maybe add additional layers of MDF, add more hinges and buy a good seal?

Thanks in advance for your help!
Caleb

[xSpace]

1) Can I please check which is the better way to handle the walls given that I am not creating a floating floor? Rest wall on isolation board, or have it floating and attached to the brick wall via clips and furring channel?

2) Do you think this is sufficient enough for the purposes of playing piano/listening to music at odd hours or will the flanking paths via the flooring defeat everything?

3) I checked prices for doors and they are crazily expensive. Is there any point in spending so much money on the door given this isn't exactly a room within a room (no decoupled floor)? Can I get away with buying just one expensive door, and buying a solid wood door and attempting to install seals myself for the second door. Is this a good idea, and if so, I assume the better door should be the one in the inner room instead?

OR are these acoustic doors a waste of money for my purposes, and I should just stick with solid doors and maybe add additional layers of MDF, add more hinges and buy a good seal?

Thanks in advance for your help!
Caleb

You should read this first: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=2&t=3231

You are in the same situation as another poster who did a build. a lot of things can go wrong and you are suggesting things that are incorrect already. It isn't your fault you are just starting on the learning curve and closer to the start than the middle, certainly no where near the end. So please read the following thread: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=17363 in addition to the post above about things you should do before posting...like how much money you have to throw at this build. doesn't matter that you may do it yourself, materials cost money and you can bet getting them to the tenth floor of this building is going to be a whole different set of problems.


In any event, if you build a floor or not, building anything will require permissions in writing signed off by the Architects engineer. Brick walls are just as heavy as a concrete floor and present a load even more concentrated since it is essentially a floor on edge. And adding additional deadload weight to the upper floor adds to the upper rooms floor....not just your ceiling.

Make sense?

You haven't gotten a handle on a double leaf assembly yet. Your existing boundaries are the first leaf in your specific case. So read the threads above and understand this is a long process...like your in a marathon not a sprint.

[DIY_NEWBIE]

Hello Brien, thanks for the response! (have edited first post, added floorplan..etc to provide more info too and tidied it up abit and re-read the Greece studio build link and others...)

1) I understand anything more than a double leave is bad. From reading of the posts, in most examples where the problems of triple leafing were mentioned, the individual tried to create a triple wall on the room itself. But in an apartment setting, won't we have multiple leaves generally speaking given how rooms are spaced out? My line of thought goes like this: A person sitting in the living room would view the two walls in the listening room as a double wall, whilst a person sitting in the bedroom views it as a triple leaf... (am i making sense?) How do we mitigate this in an apartment setting?

2) I understand your concerns with regards to the brick walls. And yes agree, this requires a professional engineer's approval, it's required by law over here too. Just to clarify, i'm just working on the assumption that the first layer of brickwall gets approved by the PE. This is because when I spoke to my contractor previously, he said that speaking from his experience in getting such approvals, given the brickwall is sitting directly on the steel/concrete support beam, it should get approved. But of course, this ultimately needs to get submitted and approved by the PE officially. But in the event he is wrong and this cannot get approved, i'll substitute with drywalls instead of brick.

[mike1234]

Hello everyone,

Thank you in advance for all help, and time taken in replying to all the posts in the forum! I've been spending days reading through them and the amount of information is mind boggling but can get confusing for a newbie like me.

Purpose and overview: I am trying to construct a listening room/music practice room. The aim is to create a room where I can have a quiet environment to listen to music and to play a piano at odd hours without disturbing the neighbours and family members if possible. (55db reduction?)

Location and additional details: I live in an apartment on the 10th floor in Singapore. Typical 20 storey flat, with concrete support pillars/beams (floor and ceiling are concrete) and internal/external rooms are constructed out of brick walls.

I guess the most obvious sound transmission path would be the floors above and below me (Standalone apartment unit, hence no neighbours to the left and right). The apartment has concrete ceilings and floors, with exterior walls in brick. I intend to chop an existing living room to build the listening room, hence I will need to build the 2 remaining walls (one of the walls is the exterior wall), with the dimensions of the room at 4.6m by 5.5m, ceiling height 2.6m.

Budget: I'm budgeting 15-18K USD for the project including all labour and materials. Sorry I wasn't clear earlier, this isn't exactly a DIY, more like i'm trying to save some money by using a contractor to do the construction but with me providing instructions and supervision. What i'm also considering doing is getting them to build the doors as suggested in the sticky links rather than buying a ready made acoustic door as that would already wipe out more than a quarter of the budget from the prices i'm being quoted.

Floorplan:
Boxes in red are existing brickwalls.
Boxes in green are proposed additional walls.

Flooring:
I gather from numerous posts that any form of floating floor would be pointless for various reasons in an apartment with load bearing issues, hence i'm going to just leave it as concrete and overlay with wood just for aesthetic reasons.

Ceiling:
Two 10mm gypsum boards glued together with 10cm airgap attached with springs, stuffed with rockwool.

Walls:
I intend to build the outer brick wall layer first and glue two 12mm gypsum boards together as the second inner layer with a 10cm airgap stuffed with rockwool. Here is where i get a little confused...

Method 1: In the first link, the inner wall sits on a vibration isolation board (Iso-Sill plate isolation) and does not have any connections to the brick wall. (like Beeros' walls)

Method 2: In the second link, the inner wall studs are attached to the wall, and the channels are decoupled from the studs via sound isolation clips.

frame rests on floor and does not touch brick wall
Studs attached to wall

1) Given the above, is method 1 or method 2 better?

2) I've been reading the FAQ on drywalls and just wanted to be sure I understood this post from the FAQ correctly:
"In all cases, ¼" spacers should be used under panels until fastened, then pull the spacers and caulk before repeating for the next layer. "
Info on wall construction
Dubai architecture firms

Can I please confirm that this means the frame should be decoupled from the floor via an iso-sill plate, and never touches the floor/ceiling directly? Is the iso-sill plate or the RSIC clip preferable instead? RSIC clip link

Method 2 seems to be a solution to solve the problem of decoupling the frame from the floor and looks easier to construct. The channels itself are decoupled from the brickwall via isolation clips too. Is this workable? (though it appears less preferable as there is contact with the brick wall)

In Beeros' build, he seems to be using this L shaped clip to lift the frame off the floor instead. Or am I looking at it wrongly and the frame is actually touching the floor and ceiling, and the L shaped clip is just to hold it upright in place? Scroll to middle for pic of Beeros' framing method

The drywall itself is then spaced 1/4" from the floor and ceiling, and then caulked. Is my understanding correct please?

3) Do you think the additional walls and ceiling is sufficient enough for the purposes of playing piano/listening to music at odd hours or will the flanking paths via the flooring defeat everything?

4) I checked prices for doors and they are crazily expensive. Is there any point in spending so much money on the door given this isn't exactly a room within a room (no decoupled floor)? Can I get away with buying just one expensive door, and buying a solid wood door and attempting to install seals myself for the second door. Is this a good idea, and if so, I assume the better door should be the one in the inner room instead?

OR are these acoustic doors a waste of money for my purposes, and I should just stick with solid doors and maybe add additional layers of MDF, add more hinges and buy a good seal?

Thanks in advance for your help!
Caleb

There's a difference between treating the internal acoustics of a room (ie the sound of the room) and treating the room to stop sound transmission. They are in fact completely separate objectives. By sound proof, I presume you want to stop sound getting in and out of your apartment so you can't hear your neighbours, and they can't hear you. The above treatment methods will do little if anything to stop sound transmission - that is, they won't help sound proof your room. While they may lower reverb time in your room (which will reduce transmission somewhat), they won't stop sound going through your walls. They will change the sound within your room, but that's not what you're after. Hanging carpet on your walls will do very little - you'll still hear your neighbours. You need an air tight room with resilience and and mass. If your room is not airtight from the neighbours, you're in trouble. Fix this first. The sound you hear is a result of common walls, floor or roof that has very little mass. Are you neighbours below, above or beside you? The honest answer is that there is no cheap way to stop sound getting into a room, unless you're a carpenter.

[Soundman2020]

So, "mike", here you are yet again, responding to a very old thread that has been dead for nearly a year, and responding by plagiarizing from other people.... Hmmmm.... Why am I thinking that these are the tactics of a spammer? Maybe that's why I'm blocking your signatures, and your links from now on...

By sound proof, I presume you want to stop sound getting in and out

Curiously, the original poster never used the term "sound proof", so it's hard to see why you would comment on that specific term. IT never was used in this thread.... except by you.... strange...

Hanging carpet on your walls will do very little ...

Amazingly enough, the original poster also never mentioned anything about carpet! So why did you? Perhaps because you are a spammer?

The above treatment methods will do little if anything to stop sound transmission

Really? That's strange, because some of them actually would help...


- Stuart -

[InsTreet]

I agree with you Your great ideas

[Soundman2020]

I agree with you Your great ideas

... And who are you?

(Your spam signature has been blocked, so don't try that silly trick again... Did you REALLY think it would not be noticed?)

- Stuart -

[emkaan]

Hello everyone,

Thank you in advance for all help, and time taken in replying to all the posts in the forum! I've been spending days reading through them and the amount of information is mind boggling but can get confusing for a newbie like me.

Purpose and overview: I am trying to construct a listening room/music practice room. The aim is to create a room where I can have a quiet environment to listen to music and to play a piano at odd hours without disturbing the neighbours and family members if possible. (55db reduction?)

Location and additional details: I live in an apartment on the 10th floor in Singapore. Typical 20 storey flat, with concrete support pillars/beams (floor and ceiling are concrete) and internal/external rooms are constructed out of brick walls.

I guess the most obvious sound transmission path would be the floors above and below me (Standalone apartment unit, hence no neighbours to the left and right). The apartment has concrete ceilings and floors, with exterior walls in brick. I intend to chop an existing living room to build the listening room, hence I will need to build the 2 remaining walls (one of the walls is the exterior wall), with the dimensions of the room at 4.6m by 5.5m, ceiling height 2.6m.

Budget: I'm budgeting 15-18K USD for the project including all labour and materials. Sorry I wasn't clear earlier, this isn't exactly a DIY, more like i'm trying to save some money by using a contractor to do the construction but with me providing instructions and supervision. What i'm also considering doing is getting them to build the doors as suggested in the sticky links rather than buying a ready made acoustic door as that would already wipe out more than a quarter of the budget from the prices i'm being quoted.

Floorplan:
Boxes in red are existing brickwalls.
Boxes in green are proposed additional walls.

Flooring:
I gather from numerous posts that any form of floating floor would be pointless for various reasons in an apartment with load bearing issues, hence i'm going to just leave it as concrete and overlay with wood just for aesthetic reasons.

Ceiling:
Two 10mm gypsum boards glued together with 10cm airgap attached with springs, stuffed with rockwool.

Walls:
I intend to build the outer brick wall layer first and glue two 12mm gypsum boards together as the second inner layer with a 10cm airgap stuffed with rockwool. Here is where i get a little confused...

Method 1: In the first link, the inner wall sits on a vibration isolation board (Iso-Sill plate isolation) and does not have any connections to the brick wall. (like Beeros' walls)

Method 2: In the second link, the inner wall studs are attached to the wall, and the channels are decoupled from the studs via sound isolation clips.

frame rests on floor and does not touch brick wall
Studs attached to wall

1) Given the above, is method 1 or method 2 better?

2) I've been reading the FAQ on drywalls and just wanted to be sure I understood this post from the FAQ correctly:
"In all cases, ¼" spacers should be used under panels until fastened, then pull the spacers and caulk before repeating for the next layer. "
Info on wall construction

Can I please confirm that this means the frame should be decoupled from the floor via an iso-sill plate, and never touches the floor/ceiling directly? Is the iso-sill plate or the RSIC clip preferable instead? RSIC clip link [ SPAM LINK TO STUPID SPAMMER'S OWN WEB SITE DELETED . SPAMMER BANNED AND BLOCKED PERMANENTLY ]

Method 2 seems to be a solution to solve the problem of decoupling the frame from the floor and looks easier to construct. The channels itself are decoupled from the brickwall via isolation clips too. Is this workable? (though it appears less preferable as there is contact with the brick wall)

In Beeros' build, he seems to be using this L shaped clip to lift the frame off the floor instead. Or am I looking at it wrongly and the frame is actually touching the floor and ceiling, and the L shaped clip is just to hold it upright in place? Scroll to middle for pic of Beeros' framing method

The drywall itself is then spaced 1/4" from the floor and ceiling, and then caulked. Is my understanding correct please?

3) Do you think the additional walls and ceiling is sufficient enough for the purposes of playing piano/listening to music at odd hours or will the flanking paths via the flooring defeat everything?

4) I checked prices for doors and they are crazily expensive. Is there any point in spending so much money on the door given this isn't exactly a room within a room (no decoupled floor)? Can I get away with buying just one expensive door, and buying a solid wood door and attempting to install seals myself for the second door. Is this a good idea, and if so, I assume the better door should be the one in the inner room instead?

OR are these acoustic doors a waste of money for my purposes, and I should just stick with solid doors and maybe add additional layers of MDF, add more hinges and buy a good seal?

Thanks in advance for your help!
Caleb

Still no satisfactory solution to this?

[Soundman2020]

Still no satisfactory solution to this?

In what way was the response given by Brien "not satisfactory"? Why did you not like that one?

But I do see your point, so the most satisfactory solution is to delete your spam link, then ban you and block you permanently.

Now THAT is a satisfactory solution!

- Stuart -