Soundproofing a Bedroom from outside noise....

How thick should my walls be, should I float my floors (and if so, how), why is two leaf mass-air-mass design important, etc.

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homeby5
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Soundproofing a Bedroom from outside noise....

Post by homeby5 »

Hello Guys,
My name is Tom and I was referred here by DFO (A drummers forum).

I am in the middle of construction of a new home and I want to isolate my bedroom from outside noise. Mostly normal neighbor and traffic noise but also from my instrument playing in a downstairs room. I know this is not a "Studio" design question....that may come in the future :lol:

Anyway the room dimension is 17'8" by 15'4". The exterior walls (2 of these, one 17'8" and one 15'4") are 8" concrete block (hollow core) and the interior walls are framed out with standard 2x4 and 2x6 construction. The ceiling has an attic space above and has 2x8 joist. The floor is a solid 8" concrete slab open to air underneath (cars are parked underneath because the house is up on columns).

I haven't put up any drywall yet but I have installed 1x2 furring strips on the exterior concrete block walls that I will attach my drywall to. I also installed ceiling wood furring strips that are run perpendicular to the truss joist in order to attach the drywall overhead (I guess I should have used isolation strips instead of wood...huh?) So, any and all advice on soundproofing this bedroom is needed.

Here are some basic questions I have:
What should I put between my exterior Concrete Block walls and the sheetrock?
What about inside my interior walls?
Should I double stack two sheets of thin drywall seperated by GG or simply attach a standard thicker sheets of drywall around the room?
What about my floor? I am going to carpet and was planning on laying the carpet foam on the concrete slab? Any ideas about this?

Thanks a bunch guys :)
Soundman2020
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Re: Soundproofing a Bedroom from outside noise....

Post by Soundman2020 »

Hi Tom. Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things! :)

Just to clarify what you want to do: You have an upstairs bedroom, and you also have a drum room downstairs, correct? And currently neither of the two rooms are acoustically isolated? And you are asking about isolating the bedroom, NOT the drum room? Did I get all of that straight? Just trying to make sure I understand the problem.
Anyway the room dimension is 17'8" by 15'4".
That's only two dimensions: you forgot the height!

The exterior walls (2 of these, ...) are 8" concrete block (hollow core ... The floor is a solid 8" concrete slab
That's a good start, for those three sides of the room. The problem is with the other three sides (two walls and ceiling).
(cars are parked underneath because the house is up on columns).
So where's the drum room? Also down there some place? Is it directly below the bedroom, or further away?
I have installed 1x2 furring strips on the exterior concrete block walls that I will attach my drywall to.
Mistake. If you have attached the furring directly to the concrete, and plan to attach drywall directly to that, then your drywall would not be decoupled from the concrete, which is what you need. As long as the drywall is coupled, you won't get isolation. What you need to do, is to decouple it. You do that by building a separate frame that does not touch the existing concrete block walls. Normally you leave a 1" gap then put up a 2x4 frame, and attach your drywall to that, in the normal way. You also put suitable insulation in the wall cavity, not for thermal reasons but for acoustic reasons.

This is a tuned system (technically it's sometimes called a "fully decoupled 2-leaf MSM system"), so the air gap needs to be deep enough for your purposes (another reason why the 1x2 furring is a mistake the air gap is far too small like that), and the drywall needs to be heavy enough for your purposes. That's how the tuning is accomplished. If it is not tuned correctly, it won't isolate the way you want it to.

That part in front of the 3 concrete block walls is fairly straightforward. The issue is what to do with the other two walls: Assuming they are typical house walls (2x framing with drywall on both sides), you'll need to take the drywall off your room side of those, then continue your new framing around those sides of the room as well, making sure that the new framing does not touch the existing walls. Once again, you fill the air gap with suitable insulation, then put drywall on the framing.

That just leaves the ceiling. The process here depending on what is above that: Another room? Roof? Attic? What type of construction? You mentioned joists and furring, but what's most important is understanding what is going on above that. Assuming that there is something substantial up there that can act as your outer leaf, then the best option would be to take off the furring that you put up (not needed, and not useful), put RSIC clips up there, then put hat channel in the clips and hang your drywall from that. And of course, once again, suitable insulation goes in the air cavity.

There might be other options open to you for the two framed walls, such as RC or RSIC clips, but we'd need more info to see if that is viable.

That just leaves the doors, windows, and ventilation issues. Windows can be sealed in place, and heavier glass installed, and doors can be sealed with rubber strips around the perimeter, as well as replacing hollow-core with solid-core if applicable. But ventilation is a big issue, and often overlooked.

This is a bedroom, which implies that people will be sleeping in it for long periods. I'm also assuming that the very reason it needs to be isolated is that currently people cannot sleep well in it, so it will need enough ventilation to keep a person alive and healthy for at least 8 hours. Since isolating the room acoustically basically means sealing it hermetically twice over, there's a need for a ventilation system that allows air in and out without compromising the acoustic isolation. It's not that hard to do, but it needs to be planned as part of the overall design.
What should I put between my exterior Concrete Block walls and the sheetrock?
A large air gap, no mechanical connection at all, and suitable insulation. By "suitable" I mean stuff that will do the job of damping resonance inside the cavity. In most places, that means either 30 kg/m3 fiberglass insulation, or 50 kg/m3 mineral wool insulation.
What about inside my interior walls?
Ditto. They key is to have a large air gap, at lest 4" deep, and not mechanical connection between the new drywall and the existing structure. Any mechanical connection at all, even a single nail, greatly compromises the isolation.
Should I double stack two sheets of thin drywall seperated by GG or simply attach a standard thicker sheets of drywall around the room?
That depends on how much isolation you need, which you didn't mention in your first post. But you did mention drums, so I'm guessing that you need a lot. The more mass you put on your new inner leaf, the better it will be for isolation. If you do go with two layers of drywall, then Green Glue does indeed improve low frequency isolation even more.
What about my floor?
Once again, that depends on how much isolation you need. It also depends on whether or not the sounds you are trying to isolate are both structure-borne and airborne, or only airborne. If you have structure-borne sound, then your floor will basically act like a loudspeaker, and transmit it into the room. Drums often flank into the building structure if they are not isolated, and so do things like bass cabs, so chances are that you do have a structure-borne issue. If that's the case, then carpet isn't going to do much at all. In fact, for structure-brine sound, the very best option is to eliminate the problem at the source, not the destination: build a drum riser to isolate the drums from the floor. Problem solved!

Of course, all of the above assumes that you have your drums in one room, downstairs, and that you are trying to isolate an upstairs bedroom from those drums, since that's what I understood from your original post.


- Stuart -
homeby5
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Re: Soundproofing a Bedroom from outside noise....

Post by homeby5 »

I'm Sorry...the ceiling is 9'6". I ahve attached the plans...
Plans 02.pdf
This plan shows the Storage shed (music room)

The next plan shows the Master Bedroom (the one I am trying to keep quite)
Plans 03.pdf
The next plan shows the empty areas underneath the house
Plans 04.pdf
Again, I'm not too concerned about blocking out noise from the music room as I will not play when my wife sleeps. I am mainly concerned about normal neighborhood noise (barking dogs, parties).

I am not sure if building a decoupled wall in front of the concrete wall is feasible or even up to code. I would have to change a LOT of things and I am concerned about the aesthetics (such as how the windows would look.

What can I do to get the most effectiveness without changing the construction plans? Two thinner sheets of drywall instead of one? How much sound would that block. Same thing as insulation inside the walls where possible? Insulation vs sound vinyl? Any material that I could put under the carpet that would work? Basically what products work and what are gimmicks?

Thanks for your help :)
Soundman2020
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Re: Soundproofing a Bedroom from outside noise....

Post by Soundman2020 »

Reply coming a little late! Sorry about that: I missed out on a few threads a while back, and only just found them again. I hope this is still useful!

OK, so in order to isolate your bedroom better (forgetting completely about the music room, as that isn't an issue for you), here's what I would do, in your situation:

Instead of putting drywall directly on the studs in the bedroom, instead buy "Sound Isolation Clips", often called RSIC clips or something similar. Put those on the studs, then put hat channel in the clips, and put your drywall on the hat channel. The clips decoupled (isolate) the drywall from the frame, so vibrations (=sound) cannot make it across. Also, use 5/8" drywall, instead of 1/2" drywall, and if you REALLY want top isolation, then use two layers of 5/8" drywall with a special sound-damping product in between, called "Green Glue Compound". It is made by the Green Glue company. It isn't really glue at all (although it is green!), and it creates an additional isolation layer between the two sheets of drywall.

Oh, and you also need to fill the wall cavity (behind the drywall) with Owens Corning OC-703 insulation.

Do the ceiling the exact same way: clips, hat channel, 5/8" drywall, and for higher isolation make it two layers of 5/8 with Green Glue in between.

For your floor, add an extra layer of plywood on the subfloor, as thick as you can find, with Green Glue between it and the normal subfloor, then put down the final finish floor on top of that. Of course, that means that the floor in that room will be higher than in all the other rooms, and the doors might also be an issue, so you need to take all of that into account. The easiest way is to do the same for the entire house. It also adds extra weight to the floor joists, so check with your structural engineer to make sure that your joists can handle it.

Then put more OC-703 between the joists down below, and hang the ceiling down there the same way you did it in the bedroom.

For the windows, specify acoustic-rated windows, which use heavier glass than normal. It is usually either thick laminated glass, or thick double glazing with a larger than normal air gap.

For all of the above, the single most important thing you can do is to seal all joints, cracks, gaps and holes very, very well. Those are a huge deal, for isolation.
What can I do to get the most effectiveness without changing the construction plans?
The above should not change your plans much at all. The room would be slightly smaller internally, sue using the clips and hat channel across the studs, and the thicker drywall, but it won't even be noticeable, unless you look for it. Ditto from the extra layer on the subfloor: the rooms will have slightly less height (the thickness of the extra wood layer), but once again, you won't notice it.

The only issue is the extra weight: check with your structural engineer. Worst case, he might want to put an extra beam or two under that part of the house, in addition to what is already on the plans, to handle the additional load. No big deal: he's just reduce the spacing a bit, probably.
Two thinner sheets of drywall instead of one?
Nope: two thicker sheets. You need more mass, not less, and you also need to decouple that mass from the framing, which is what the RSIC clips do.
How much sound would that block.
If you do it right, about it will block about ten to one hundred times more sound than a normal wall. In other words, you'd get between 40 and 50 dB of isolation, as compared to the typical normal 30 dB of isolation from a normal house wall.
Same thing as insulation inside the walls where possible? Insulation vs sound vinyl?
Insulation yes. MLV no. You do not need that, and it is very expensive. You do need the correct type of insulation, yes. See above...
Any material that I could put under the carpet that would work? Basically what products work and what are gimmicks?
There are no magical materials in acoustics. some unscrupulous salesmen might try to convince you otherwise, but the facts are simple: what isolates is mass and decoupling. The equations used for calculating isolation have no place to plug in the prices that you paid for the materials, or how much commission the salesman pocket: the only thing you can plug into those equations, is the mass of the materials. how much do they weigh, per cubic foot? That's what matters most. Sound waves can't read price tags anyway, so they don't care. All they see is "mass", and that is what stops them. So the mart thing to do, is to use mass that doesn't cost so much! Plain old ordinary drywall fits that bill pretty well.

The second thing I mentioned that goes into those equations, is decoupling. That describes how well the mass is disconnected from other things that might cause it to vibrate, and thus make a sound: The better you make that decoupling, the better isolation you get.

That's all there is to it, basically.


- Stuart -
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