hi all-
most of the examples of floating floors i've seen are in commercial spaces and cement floor. i'm building out my attic and am trying to determine if it's worth floating an entire structure inside or not.
one issue i'm trying to sort out is one of the exterior walls with a window in it presently. if i build a new room within a room, should i just have a window in my new room at the same place also?
since it's an attic, i plan on making at least 1 knee wall and doing the standard soundproofing construction on that wall (RC, etc). is this method only useful as long as i do all of the walls/celings that way?
option a)
just RC/drywall on existing walls/celing - effectively creating only 1 structure between sound and neighbors
option b)
create internal knee wall not floated on sensitive neighbor's side, ceiling and opposite walls treated as in option a
option c)
float new floor on top of current subfloor, build walls & ceiling on new floating structure.
the disadvantage i see to option c (besides cost) is the blocking of windows in the walls and also my electrical subpanel will be in one of the possibly covered walls.
also, how about the use of glass brick? it seems to have a pretty decent STC rating.
any thoughts?
thanks much,
nick
floating floor on wood joists (2x10s)
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nick_kraska
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sixtiksix
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- Location: Lautern Germany
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nick_kraska
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hey all-
thanks so much for the response. the plan as i see it in the grand scheme of things is to eventually have a 3 room studio. live room. dead room. control room. since this is such a big undertaking, i'm starting with what will be the live room first.
the goal is to have this room be as physically and acoustically isolated as possible - so that in theory, my rock band can practice there as well without pissing off the neighbors. for regular old practice, everyone will be in this room.
for recording, the drums will be in this room - amps will go in another room.
what's there currently:
living space below (i own the house, bedroom and kitchen below). construction from bottom up is currently living space > plaster > 2x6 > slatted floor boards > attic. i am going to strengthen this to be living space > plaster > 2x10 > 3/4" OSB
so, then i'm hypothesizing going living space > plaster > 2x10 > 3/4" OSB > uboat > 2x4 > 703 > 3/4" ply > live room
sixtiksix, what do you mean by flanking my isolation?
perhaps it'll help to see the rooms as they are right now to get a better picture of what i'm up against... from top down you see...
a) general overview, i'm standing in front of house where eventually the control room will be. there is about 12 ft of space behind where the picture is taken from. the picture is looking into where the dead room will be up to the chiney, then the chimney to the window is the room we're talking about now, the live room. the neighbors on the left are residential and i'm concenred about, the nieghbors on the right is a commercial warehouse, so i'm not so concerned about them
b) is standing in the live room looking at the neighbors on the side (you can see the brick of thier house through the windows - perhaps 8-10 feet from window to thier brick)
c) existing exterior window in live room - this leads to my back yard
and FYI, here's a thread regarding a proposed larger layout plan, but i'm not sure if it's going to work with everything in context when i see the actual space....
http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... highlight=
thanks so much!!!
nick
thanks so much for the response. the plan as i see it in the grand scheme of things is to eventually have a 3 room studio. live room. dead room. control room. since this is such a big undertaking, i'm starting with what will be the live room first.
the goal is to have this room be as physically and acoustically isolated as possible - so that in theory, my rock band can practice there as well without pissing off the neighbors. for regular old practice, everyone will be in this room.
for recording, the drums will be in this room - amps will go in another room.
what's there currently:
living space below (i own the house, bedroom and kitchen below). construction from bottom up is currently living space > plaster > 2x6 > slatted floor boards > attic. i am going to strengthen this to be living space > plaster > 2x10 > 3/4" OSB
so, then i'm hypothesizing going living space > plaster > 2x10 > 3/4" OSB > uboat > 2x4 > 703 > 3/4" ply > live room
sixtiksix, what do you mean by flanking my isolation?
perhaps it'll help to see the rooms as they are right now to get a better picture of what i'm up against... from top down you see...
a) general overview, i'm standing in front of house where eventually the control room will be. there is about 12 ft of space behind where the picture is taken from. the picture is looking into where the dead room will be up to the chiney, then the chimney to the window is the room we're talking about now, the live room. the neighbors on the left are residential and i'm concenred about, the nieghbors on the right is a commercial warehouse, so i'm not so concerned about them
b) is standing in the live room looking at the neighbors on the side (you can see the brick of thier house through the windows - perhaps 8-10 feet from window to thier brick)
c) existing exterior window in live room - this leads to my back yard
and FYI, here's a thread regarding a proposed larger layout plan, but i'm not sure if it's going to work with everything in context when i see the actual space....
http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... highlight=
thanks so much!!!
nick
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sixtiksix
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:52 am
- Location: Lautern Germany
Hey man,
Call me TIK please...um I really only know failure in these types of situations, eg talking to the cops a lot...I am a drummer and from what I am seeing I am not sure you will be able to do it...You can look at all the shit I am going through with my studio....
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1737
So, this is a forum where people try to help each other...so I am going to shoot from the hip..
Man it would be way easier to talk to you on the phone about this...so much damn typing...
You see, if you build a studio in that space for drums I think as you learn more about this stuff you won't be happy...for a lot of reasons
So What are you using to record your drums with...what software/hardware...what are you trying to achieve?
Do you want dry drums when your tracking and add cheesy digital effects later or do you have pro tools or nice outboard gear...
Do you have experience with this type of setup that has paid off in the past?
I would seriously consider turning you attic into your studio dream with a dead room and rent a practice space for the live room and track there as well... I know you can get cheap spaces in Buddy Guy's neighborhood or at least where his club is.
This stuff isn't addressed in this forum so much that I have seen, but are you the nice guy in the band and the other dead beats won't antie up?
I am not trying to be smart just help...
Flanking...meaning the sound goes through a place you didn't spend as much time and money on and goes around the place you did...
Meaning... you have to stop the sound from getting out everywhere evenly...possibly not as you described in your first post...
If you just want advice on sound proofing I will shut the hell up as I am way behind the experts here, but the reason I felt moved to answer your post is because I felt it was more in a context of experience with bands and maybe even what you ultimately want to do with this space...not so much how many dB per layer of sheet rock...
If I am wrong please tell me not to bother you
I really would like to help as it is probably half my nature and half therapy from going insane from all this construction....
So the others can answer you questions about the best way to attack the sound proofing but let me finalize:
1> If you play loud (double stack on ten, drummer beating the hell out of his kit) no way are you going to keep the rock band from interfering with the neighbors watching Ted Koppel.
2> Have you done a test to see how much noise bleeds out now?
3> What are the cons of spending your money on your dream configuration and renting a practice space?
4>You can not plan too much
5>You can not plan too much
TIK
Call me TIK please...um I really only know failure in these types of situations, eg talking to the cops a lot...I am a drummer and from what I am seeing I am not sure you will be able to do it...You can look at all the shit I am going through with my studio....
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1737
So, this is a forum where people try to help each other...so I am going to shoot from the hip..
Man it would be way easier to talk to you on the phone about this...so much damn typing...
You see, if you build a studio in that space for drums I think as you learn more about this stuff you won't be happy...for a lot of reasons
So What are you using to record your drums with...what software/hardware...what are you trying to achieve?
Do you want dry drums when your tracking and add cheesy digital effects later or do you have pro tools or nice outboard gear...
Do you have experience with this type of setup that has paid off in the past?
I would seriously consider turning you attic into your studio dream with a dead room and rent a practice space for the live room and track there as well... I know you can get cheap spaces in Buddy Guy's neighborhood or at least where his club is.
This stuff isn't addressed in this forum so much that I have seen, but are you the nice guy in the band and the other dead beats won't antie up?
I am not trying to be smart just help...
Flanking...meaning the sound goes through a place you didn't spend as much time and money on and goes around the place you did...
Meaning... you have to stop the sound from getting out everywhere evenly...possibly not as you described in your first post...
If you just want advice on sound proofing I will shut the hell up as I am way behind the experts here, but the reason I felt moved to answer your post is because I felt it was more in a context of experience with bands and maybe even what you ultimately want to do with this space...not so much how many dB per layer of sheet rock...
If I am wrong please tell me not to bother you
I really would like to help as it is probably half my nature and half therapy from going insane from all this construction....
So the others can answer you questions about the best way to attack the sound proofing but let me finalize:
1> If you play loud (double stack on ten, drummer beating the hell out of his kit) no way are you going to keep the rock band from interfering with the neighbors watching Ted Koppel.
2> Have you done a test to see how much noise bleeds out now?
3> What are the cons of spending your money on your dream configuration and renting a practice space?
4>You can not plan too much
5>You can not plan too much
TIK
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nick_kraska
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 2:23 pm
- Location: chicago
- Contact:
tik-
thanks for the reply. i'll try and give as much info as possible on this, and hopefully everyone can get ahead. i'm also a drummer too by the way, so that's cool. i'll try and hit your questions as they come up...
recording medium: currently 1" 16 track tape setup, forseeing upgrading to 2" after this room is finished. have mostly analog outboard gear, though also i have cubase and a mbox for making reference disks. i mixdown to 1/4". in the past my setup was in a 1 room situation, ie my band's current practice space - which is in a huge warehouse in a bad neighborhood in town. i did a bunch of work there, but since i can't control when the metal band next door is going to practice (and believe me, it's ruined a number of attempts at vocal overdubs there) i moved my gear out of there and my stuff is currently at another studio in town. the disadvantages of this of course is that we have to pay rent to use either of these. essentially i'm being charged freelance rates to use my own gear. it's that, or deal with the zero isolation from neighboring bands and work 1 room style a la daniel lanois.
the goal for this space is to get to a point where we can get out of our lease at the current practice space, and also serve as a basic recording studio on the cheap a) for demoing my band and b) for working with other bands in town. i'm planning on upgrading to 2" so i'll be compatible with any of the like 300 studios in town. that way i can track basics elsewhere and bring it back to my house for overdubs and mixdown. however, my place here needs to be good enough to do some amount of work from start to finish. i'd like the cheap option to be do everything here and the fancy option to be split between locations.
in a perfect world i want the live room to actually be live sounding, though - i'll take what i can get. i'd rather have a tight dry drum sound than adding effects for ambience. although i do know it's a matter of execution, i've been in some real fancy studios with small rooms that sound brilliant. hopefully we can strike some sort of balance with this one.
so - as for experience, yes. i've worked in 1 room studios, am currently out of a 3 room setup (but i have to pay the owner to use the rooms on my gear) and also have worked at "real" studios in town with all the bells and whistles.
i used to live 3 blocks from buddy guy's club, and it's actually in a pretty yuppified neighborhood these days - i've moved more north/west where it's cheaper. our current practice space is a bit south and west of there.
i do own the building, and as far as the other guys go - they'd be fine practicing at the space - but it does seem kind of wasteful if we can make it happen here. alternately - if i do the build out here, the cash they spend on the practice space currently can be diverted to me to offset the cost of me building this place out. in addition - i can have a place to record bands on the cheap - but i'd like to be able to also track at other spaces and finish here.
re: #2 - i have not yet done a current noise test at my house to see what it is. there are train tracks on the south side of me (perhaps 30 ft) and it's pretty loud when a train goes by. i have measured band practice at the space and it hovers somewhere about 95 db i think.
#3 - i think that's what i'm trying to do - have a space where i can a) practice b) be decent for recording that is c) compatible with the better studios in town so if the live room doesn't sound great, but at least i can make noise there, and have my console in the room over, that's a success
#4 - that's why i'm here now asking questions. the contractor is coming in 4-6 weeks to do the joists... i want to figure out if i should put 703 between the joists before he screws down the 3/4" osb.
on an unrelated note - where's lautern? my band just got back from touring europe, and we were in germany for about 10 days all over the place - it was fun stuff.
i appreciate your help and look forward to others giving thier 2 cents. also, i checked out your thread, and your place looks pretty cool too!
thanks!
nick
thanks for the reply. i'll try and give as much info as possible on this, and hopefully everyone can get ahead. i'm also a drummer too by the way, so that's cool. i'll try and hit your questions as they come up...
recording medium: currently 1" 16 track tape setup, forseeing upgrading to 2" after this room is finished. have mostly analog outboard gear, though also i have cubase and a mbox for making reference disks. i mixdown to 1/4". in the past my setup was in a 1 room situation, ie my band's current practice space - which is in a huge warehouse in a bad neighborhood in town. i did a bunch of work there, but since i can't control when the metal band next door is going to practice (and believe me, it's ruined a number of attempts at vocal overdubs there) i moved my gear out of there and my stuff is currently at another studio in town. the disadvantages of this of course is that we have to pay rent to use either of these. essentially i'm being charged freelance rates to use my own gear. it's that, or deal with the zero isolation from neighboring bands and work 1 room style a la daniel lanois.
the goal for this space is to get to a point where we can get out of our lease at the current practice space, and also serve as a basic recording studio on the cheap a) for demoing my band and b) for working with other bands in town. i'm planning on upgrading to 2" so i'll be compatible with any of the like 300 studios in town. that way i can track basics elsewhere and bring it back to my house for overdubs and mixdown. however, my place here needs to be good enough to do some amount of work from start to finish. i'd like the cheap option to be do everything here and the fancy option to be split between locations.
in a perfect world i want the live room to actually be live sounding, though - i'll take what i can get. i'd rather have a tight dry drum sound than adding effects for ambience. although i do know it's a matter of execution, i've been in some real fancy studios with small rooms that sound brilliant. hopefully we can strike some sort of balance with this one.
so - as for experience, yes. i've worked in 1 room studios, am currently out of a 3 room setup (but i have to pay the owner to use the rooms on my gear) and also have worked at "real" studios in town with all the bells and whistles.
i used to live 3 blocks from buddy guy's club, and it's actually in a pretty yuppified neighborhood these days - i've moved more north/west where it's cheaper. our current practice space is a bit south and west of there.
i do own the building, and as far as the other guys go - they'd be fine practicing at the space - but it does seem kind of wasteful if we can make it happen here. alternately - if i do the build out here, the cash they spend on the practice space currently can be diverted to me to offset the cost of me building this place out. in addition - i can have a place to record bands on the cheap - but i'd like to be able to also track at other spaces and finish here.
re: #2 - i have not yet done a current noise test at my house to see what it is. there are train tracks on the south side of me (perhaps 30 ft) and it's pretty loud when a train goes by. i have measured band practice at the space and it hovers somewhere about 95 db i think.
#3 - i think that's what i'm trying to do - have a space where i can a) practice b) be decent for recording that is c) compatible with the better studios in town so if the live room doesn't sound great, but at least i can make noise there, and have my console in the room over, that's a success
#4 - that's why i'm here now asking questions. the contractor is coming in 4-6 weeks to do the joists... i want to figure out if i should put 703 between the joists before he screws down the 3/4" osb.
on an unrelated note - where's lautern? my band just got back from touring europe, and we were in germany for about 10 days all over the place - it was fun stuff.
i appreciate your help and look forward to others giving thier 2 cents. also, i checked out your thread, and your place looks pretty cool too!
thanks!
nick
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sixtiksix
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Sat Mar 27, 2004 5:52 am
- Location: Lautern Germany
Cool,
You have it together, but you don't know until you ask...
I can let you know about sound proofing in about two weeks when I start my own tests.
I live in the woods south of Frankfurt...if you tour Europe again stop by for a BBQ and rest stop....
I was in a studio in Nashville in May and you could just barely hear the drums outside meaning outside the building and it was an old three car garage and they used the techniques that you can find in this forum. The dude had a video of the studio construction...
I would say yes to the 703 and would figure out a way to float the live room in your place. Make sure to GLUE as you screw.. But again, I am the last person to ask...So far I have floated my control room and put in a ton of akoustik fiberglass and it made a tremendous difference. Also you have to make everything air tight and I have been using cases of silicon and canned foam...
Don't forget to plan for A/C as one of the first steps...
Good Luck
TIK
You have it together, but you don't know until you ask...
I can let you know about sound proofing in about two weeks when I start my own tests.
I live in the woods south of Frankfurt...if you tour Europe again stop by for a BBQ and rest stop....
I was in a studio in Nashville in May and you could just barely hear the drums outside meaning outside the building and it was an old three car garage and they used the techniques that you can find in this forum. The dude had a video of the studio construction...
I would say yes to the 703 and would figure out a way to float the live room in your place. Make sure to GLUE as you screw.. But again, I am the last person to ask...So far I have floated my control room and put in a ton of akoustik fiberglass and it made a tremendous difference. Also you have to make everything air tight and I have been using cases of silicon and canned foam...
Don't forget to plan for A/C as one of the first steps...
Good Luck
TIK
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Nick, some relevant reading -
http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/irc/fulltext/rr103/rr103.pdf
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=839
The last one gets off topic a bit (floated floors, and MORE) but still useful info for your situation.
The main thing to keep in mind as you design a sound isolation system, is that you always want two, and ONLY two, leaves of mass separated by an air/insulation space - this is particularly true of bass frequency isolation - the more mass you get in each of your two leaves and the wider the air gap, the better.
Also be aware that point loading when floors are floated on rubber pucks works in the same way that women wearing high heels increase the damage to floor surfaces - you're concentrating ALL the weight of the floated floor, equipment and people on those small rubber pucks; if the floor isn't set up right, you're asking for total collapse of the building in some cases. Take it slow and plan a lot, ask even more questions, and be absolutely SURE you're OK with a design before you build it.
Check those links, you may want to re-think how you're going to build... Steve
http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/irc/fulltext/rr103/rr103.pdf
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=839
The last one gets off topic a bit (floated floors, and MORE) but still useful info for your situation.
The main thing to keep in mind as you design a sound isolation system, is that you always want two, and ONLY two, leaves of mass separated by an air/insulation space - this is particularly true of bass frequency isolation - the more mass you get in each of your two leaves and the wider the air gap, the better.
Also be aware that point loading when floors are floated on rubber pucks works in the same way that women wearing high heels increase the damage to floor surfaces - you're concentrating ALL the weight of the floated floor, equipment and people on those small rubber pucks; if the floor isn't set up right, you're asking for total collapse of the building in some cases. Take it slow and plan a lot, ask even more questions, and be absolutely SURE you're OK with a design before you build it.
Check those links, you may want to re-think how you're going to build... Steve
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nick_kraska
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 2:23 pm
- Location: chicago
- Contact:
knightfly-
whoa.
there's a lot of information in there to soak up. i'd already read the faq thread, and just went through the basement floating thread. there's really no doubt about it, this is a huge undertaking. maybe i can start at a simple place and we can work forward to help sort my ideas out. forget the floating floor and everything for now - given the benefits of larger airspace between masses, assume we're building all new walls and ceilings. how should we deal with this collar tie? obviously i'd like to go to the peak of the room if possible.
my concern is that even if we build this new interior structure, once it comes in contact with the collar tie - it will couple itself to the outside structure. in this scenario - do you think this means vertically, i am limited by the hieght of the collar tie?
i'll keep knawing away at the links you gave me knightfly, hopefully it'll sink in quickly.
thanks,
nick
whoa.
there's a lot of information in there to soak up. i'd already read the faq thread, and just went through the basement floating thread. there's really no doubt about it, this is a huge undertaking. maybe i can start at a simple place and we can work forward to help sort my ideas out. forget the floating floor and everything for now - given the benefits of larger airspace between masses, assume we're building all new walls and ceilings. how should we deal with this collar tie? obviously i'd like to go to the peak of the room if possible.
my concern is that even if we build this new interior structure, once it comes in contact with the collar tie - it will couple itself to the outside structure. in this scenario - do you think this means vertically, i am limited by the hieght of the collar tie?
i'll keep knawing away at the links you gave me knightfly, hopefully it'll sink in quickly.
thanks,
nick
Last edited by nick_kraska on Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:32 am, edited 1 time in total.
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rod gervais
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1464
- Joined: Wed Oct 08, 2003 1:48 am
- Location: Central Village CT
- Contact:
Well,
You should give us some actual dimensions here....... it would help.
The "easy" way to get rid of the collar ties is to install a ridge beam - although doing that really isn't easy.
But it has to find bearing on the exterior walls - and that bearing has to be capable of carrying the load through the structure back down to the foundation.
In this case you really have your work cut out for you.
Rod
You should give us some actual dimensions here....... it would help.
The "easy" way to get rid of the collar ties is to install a ridge beam - although doing that really isn't easy.
But it has to find bearing on the exterior walls - and that bearing has to be capable of carrying the load through the structure back down to the foundation.
In this case you really have your work cut out for you.
Rod
Ignore the man behind the curtain........
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nick_kraska
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 2:23 pm
- Location: chicago
- Contact:
hey rod-
thanks for the input. i'm not at home right now, but what dimensions would be helpful here for you guys? when i get home, i'll measure everything up and post as much info as i possibly can. in the meantime thanks for being patient and for your assistance!
also - i'm not sure if i follow the new ridge beam idea - don't i already have a ridge beam installed at the peaks of the ceiling?
thanks,
nick
thanks for the input. i'm not at home right now, but what dimensions would be helpful here for you guys? when i get home, i'll measure everything up and post as much info as i possibly can. in the meantime thanks for being patient and for your assistance!
also - i'm not sure if i follow the new ridge beam idea - don't i already have a ridge beam installed at the peaks of the ceiling?
thanks,
nick
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Nick - "don't i already have a ridge beam installed at the peaks of the ceiling? " - good question - you'd be amazed at some of the construction we've seen here. A more complete drawing (with dimensions of all framing, paneling, room sizes, spans, etc) will go a long way to minimise the # of posts it will take to get familiar with your particular situation.
Simple way to get rid of the collar ties - just cut them out - the roof will fall on you, you'll get lots of sympathy from your wife/girlfriend, and won't have to build a studio at all...
(yes, I WAS kidding...) Steve
Simple way to get rid of the collar ties - just cut them out - the roof will fall on you, you'll get lots of sympathy from your wife/girlfriend, and won't have to build a studio at all...
(yes, I WAS kidding...) Steve-
nick_kraska
- Posts: 11
- Joined: Wed Oct 01, 2003 2:23 pm
- Location: chicago
- Contact:
hey guys-
thanks for coaching me through this! here's an updated drawing that i hope will give some more insight - and by the way, i'll be damned if i didn't look up there and i DON'T have a ridge beam!!! i thought that was pretty standard construction technique, but this is a 1904 house....
right now we're concentrating on the "live room" area, priority 1 of the construction phase.
i'm not dead set on the dead room or control room/bathroom areas, but i want to take this 1 step at a time and figure out the live room now.
thanks!
-nick
thanks for coaching me through this! here's an updated drawing that i hope will give some more insight - and by the way, i'll be damned if i didn't look up there and i DON'T have a ridge beam!!! i thought that was pretty standard construction technique, but this is a 1904 house....
right now we're concentrating on the "live room" area, priority 1 of the construction phase.
i'm not dead set on the dead room or control room/bathroom areas, but i want to take this 1 step at a time and figure out the live room now.
thanks!
-nick