New Build small CR and LR Ireland

[Dr.Delft]

Hey Guys.

So i have been dreaming of building my own home studio for years as have we all and I'm planning. Whoop whoop!! Very exciting.
Been on this forum for a few months now building my knowledge of studio layouts etc. and there are a lot of things i simply cant get my head around so ive decided to post.
Ill keep this post updated with every development, pics, plans, the lot.
I would also like to clarify that i have not started building yet (few timing issues) but do hope to start in the next 2 - 3 weeks. so this is me getting as much feedback as possible before i start anything.

my total floorspace is 25sqm -


had an architect draw up something, have to give him my go ahead for construction drawings by monday so i need to know if this is feasible and if not what can i change to make it so.

floor plan.jpg

this is the plan he gave me, the walls are 300mm thick, that's all that's here, no interior finish. 100mm block, 100mm thermal insulation, 100mm block. the right room will be the control room and the left the live room, with a window between both and only 1 window for the building in the live room. so far i think that because this is blocks only i suggested an extra 100mm on each wall in the control room and taking 200mm from the length of the live room. (regulations maximum floorspace is 25sqm).

Any and all suggestions are appreciated. Many thanks

[Dr.Delft]

Quick update with the 3d view and elevation. is that window too big or is it me

3D View.jpg

elevation.jpg

[Dr.Delft]

Ok im taking out the Lobby area and changing the entrance door to the left of the decking opening in covering the window if you get me. then completely getting rid of the middle wall altogether. any suggestions?

[Johnnie]

Just trying to chip in to help you out till Stuart gets here, with the real expertise. You mentioned you were in a little bit of a hurry. I can point out some basics though.


1st - First thing I see is 3 walls. Assuming one mass layer on each, that's going to be a 3 leaf system, which will reduce your low frequency isolation. You'd be better off, both cost wise, and isolation wise, ditching the inner wall. More is not always better.

2nd - The doors to rooms 1 and to room 2 are both at an angle and are placed directly in the corner.... the place where bass frequencies build up in a room, and you most need to put acoustic treatment. Would recommend not putting them there. Thinking in terms of 3 dimensions, that area marked lobby is awfully cramped and unwieldy. Might want to revise that area.

3rd - regardless of which room would be the control room, it kinda looks like the angle of the ceiling would be from one side to the other. What's your plan for the control room? From the sliding glass door placement, it looks like a side view control room. If so, the sloping ceiling would mean you have no symmetry... unbalancing the sound you'd hear from your listening position. It the control room is intended to face room 2, the slope is the wrong way. You want the increase to be in the direction behind the listening position. If it's room 1, you don't have the needed symmetry because of that offshoot with the window.

4th - The window is just 1 layer. You've got a lot of mass on the walls, but it's going to waste with the current window design. Would recommend putting the window in on each of the 2 layers.

[Dr.Delft]

Cheers for the reply johnnie

1. Yeah I understand that but that's actually just the wall you see there, block, insulation, block, essentially 1leaf no? Not good? The inner wall is thermal insulation. I think it's needed.

2. As revised I'm getting rid of the lobby area and the middle wall so it's one large room, the door will then be to the left of the decking.

3. The roof is what's angled here, the ceiling will be flat. I plan on a side view control room indeed.

4. Good spot Johnnie, never noticed that, I'll update it also.

I'll hopefully have updated drawings middle of the week. But just to clarify, I'll have block insulation block as my main walls, then to put my air gap, stud insulation and plasterboard x 2 ? Or is there a cheaper/better method there.

Thanks again for the input, I'll keep it updated.

[Johnnie]

So far as I understand it, each contiguous mass surface separated by air (whether filled with insulation or not) is a leaf. That means that block - insulation - block - stud/insulation/plasterboard would be a 3 leaf system, and if you're worried about low frequency isolation, would be less effective than just block - insulation/air gap - stud/insulation/plasterboard

The caveat to that comment is that I'm not sure what you mean by "block". From what I've read on the forum elsewhere (and really I'm just parotting info), Cinderblock functions as a single leaf despite the fact that it has some air space. If block - insulation - block is meaning the near side of a cinderblock filled with insulation and then the far side of the same cinderblock, then as far as I'm aware that's just one leaf. If it's 2 truly separate layers of block separated by an air gap filled with insulation, that would be two leaves.

Good idea re: moving the entrance into that little wing. That seems like a logical entrance point. Didn't quite understand the removing middle wall comment though. Making the whole thing just one room? Kind of a live end, dead end setup?

Re: Ceiling. Ahh! gotcha... flat interior roof makes sense.

btw... sorry I didn't notice the text below the pics earlier, specifying that the room to the right would be the control room.

[Dr.Delft]

ill have to talk to the architect. for building houses nowadays he said thats the way to go. block, insulation,block. now by block i mean a standard 440x215x100 size concrete block and thats thermal insulation. Of Course with this method the walls need to be tied together with metal or hard plastic. would this make it 1leaf or is this just worsening the scenario.

Ive been reading the Bible (Build it like the pros) and when describing walls on page 54 and 55 he describes the 4 leaf as mass, air, mass, air,mass, air, mass and the 2 leaf as mass, air mass, naturally each mass counts as a solid bit of mass in our case a concrete block in his gypsum, now if im reading this correctly he counts the insulation as the 'AIR' in the 4 leaf and then again in the 2 leaf so my plan of block (Mass), insulation (AIR), block (Mass) is a 2 leaf on its own. but since they will have to be tied together is it still a 2 leaf? if so then ill just lay flat blocks as 1 layer of mass, stud/insulation and gypsum as the 2nd leaf. After typing this i can see why he recommended it. it will be very very cold in winter (actually evry day bar a week during summer)

So with this being said lets say i go ahead with Block,insulation,block for the entire building and leave the middle wall. now i add some mass to these interior walls bam, i should be good to move onto treatment?

In terms of the control room Johnnie the reason im taking out the middle wall is because i believe he has put it in as a solid block wall, ill go ahead then and build the rooms within this space, or would it be the better idea to build the wall structurally? i used sepmeyers ratio 1:1.14:1.39 HWL for the control room but i forgot to add a little space for stud walls etc. thats not included in the layout above. so i figure make the room a bit longer and take out the middle concrete wall and build a cheaper? 2 leaf double frame stud wall between the 2 rooms?

Everytime i think it makes sense it doesn't

[Johnnie]

Hey there!

I was trying to research that wall issue, and I think my concern regarding 3 leaves might have been unfounded.

Between going through the forums and going through Rod Gervais book looking for info on the issue, I found the following quote in Rod's book. "Whether the wall is a multi-wythe brick structure or constructed using hollow core cement or cinder block, once completed, it is a single leaf. The air spaces in this do not form a two-leaf system."

The construction you're talking about, where the two block walls have to be anchored together (presumably for seismic reasons) sounds to me like multi-wythe construction, and if so that is going to function as a single leaf despite the air gap. Assuming that's the case, you'd be fine with the original plan for wood construction of the room in a room.

[Dr.Delft]

Cheers for the help Johnnie, ive sent my recommendations to the architect, meeting him friday to see the construction drawing. I'm afraid that there is alot of conflicting information out there on this. I found this thread where the walls are pretty much identical and stuart says its a coupled 2 leaf wall so? what to do

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=18242

Ive had a bit of a to and fro about windows with him also. this is hilarious, i said i need 2 separate panes of glass both different thicknesses and linked him to John's Window and Door construction page just to give him an idea as he wanted to put in a single triple glazed window

Quote
Best Sound and Thermal insulation available for windows
This is used to reduce the sound from the road to the inside of a dwelling and it works 'well' the other way around.

Now ive been reading the books on this and checking and im pretty sure that this is Bull, ive already recommended Laminate glass so im letting him go ahead with his construction drawings, i can just change the materials as i want, he has no clue, Oh yeah after my comment on a double glazed window being 2 leaf but for sound its not as good as 2 seperate sheets. he goes ahead and recommends to put 2 double glazed windows in the internal window.

Can somebody tell me whats going on here.

Am i right to simply use the 2 separate thickness sheets of laminate glass for both indoor and outdoor windows or should i go with the triple outside and 2 double inside. a little nagging comment keeps coming to me, " More is not necessarily better" and im confident in saying a triple glazed window is 3 leaf (bad) 2 double glazed windows is 4 leaf (even worse) 2 sheets of laminate 2 leaf, happy days yes anyway i really hope so. Oh yeah that drawing was done in like 2 mins to show the changes i made so yeah, its not great but you get the idea.

Johnnie you're a Legend, I thank you for your time, sincerely, nice to have someone who knows what your looking to achieve and is willing to help a hand. Honestly, not a single person i can talk to about this, it just goes way over their heads.

Go Raibh Mile Maith Agat a Chara.

[Johnnie]

I've seen several threads where people have been using architects who haven't built professional level studios before and it's caused problems. I'd be very careful there, as the elements of focus/construction techniques are not the same between the studios and standard home construction. I'd definitely over-rule your architect on the window issue and just stick with Rod's book and John's window design thread. Those are tried and tested techniques that have been used again and again in professional studios. If you're at all like my situation, it's just not a place to experiment.

For the pre-built double and triple pane windows used in residential construction, those window isolation claims, if they were ever actually tested, are almost certainly going to be against higher frequencies. Most standard construction stuff doesn't really get tested against the lower frequencies a studio is going to need to produce and which are harder to control. Another point is, how is that window going to be installed? There's different methods, but a common method for a pre-built window is that it's designed to be attached to a rough opening that doesn't have to be all that precise. The window gets set into the rough opening, and then nailed on the sides and bottom, but not the top (to avoid problems as the building settles), and the gaps are just covered by the flange. It's then prettied up with trim. You don't get glass going all the way to the wall at all. All around the edge is going to be an area where your isolation is soley from a contiguous mass of trim and the frame of the window. Nowhere near as effective as the glass or the wall. With the studio designed version the window goes all the way to the wall. It's still trimmed nicely, but there's no "rim" representing a weak point.

Regarding the wall issue, I think I'm going to have to bow out. Hopefully stuart will get here. We're starting to get a little advanced for me and I have to say that most difficult thing... "I don't know"

I'd definitely take any concerns Stuart had with a similar plan seriously. If you have to pick someone's advise to follow out of a cloud of people giving contrary advise, he's a really good one to pick. He puts a lot of selfless effort into this forum, and his advice has been given the thumbs up numbers of times by people we KNOW are professionals who do this all the time. That get's my vote!

Thanks for the kind words... I'm doing the same thing, so I know how helpful even just a validation can feel like. I'm still learning about this stuff myself... I just figure if I'm coming here to get some help, I've got a duty to try to give some. The trick of course is... I'm just at that stage where I know enough to be dangerous and I've got to try really hard to only give help if I'm fairly confident I understand something.

[Dr.Delft]

I'd definitely over-rule your architect on the window issue and just stick with Rod's book and John's window design thread

Indeed, i'm about to type a lengthy Email explaining why and what to put into the construction design, i may even attach a PDF of the book and John's design so he has no excuse. Very annoying but in all fairness i knew in advance he didn't have any experience in studios and the truth is that i only got him to do the drawings so i could keep it within building regulations. once the drawing are done he's out and i can really change whatever based on them. would be nice to have as many details in there as possible before starting

Regarding the wall issue, I think I'm going to have to bow out. Hopefully stuart will get here. We're starting to get a little advanced for me and I have to say that most difficult thing... "I don't know"

No shame in that Johnnie, i salute you for getting the boat rolling and helping me question and over-rule a trained professional, kinda feels good
Ill stick with the block insulation block 2 leaf and buff them up on the inside and out, should do the job nicely without having to add another leaf and i keep more space, i like space

Not a whole lot more i can do now but source materials, dig some foundations and start designing the layouts etc, the really fun part.

Oh if i forgot to mention the interior middle wall is actually Plasterboard/insulated stud 100mm/air cavity 100mm/insulated stud 100mm/ Plasterboard so that's all dandy

Thanks again for the help Johnnie, ill keep updating with photos etc but for the buzz, here's one of the space proposed. the entire garden is changing with this build also, im getting a fire pit in the left, some hammocks and small pond somewhere, gotta have a pond.

Garden.jpg

[Soundman2020]

I'm afraid that there is alot of conflicting information out there on this. I found this thread where the walls are pretty much identical and stuart says its a coupled 2 leaf wall so? what to do

It's not really conflicting information: it's more a matter of terminology. Technically, it is a coupled two-leaf system, just like a normal stud wall, since there are two separate masses with an air gap between them, but since the two sides are tightly coupled together, in reality the act much more like a single leaf than a 2-leaf. The ties provide numerous flanking paths across the cavity, so vibration on one side is transmitted directly to the other (like a single leaf), but the cavity itself also does have resonant characteristics (like a 2-leaf).

But that's probably even more confusing!

as he wanted to put in a single triple glazed window

Not a good idea! You are spot on: two panes of thick heavy glass, with a single large air cavity between, is the way to go.

This is used to reduce the sound from the road to the inside of a dwelling and it works 'well' the other way around.

Pretty much ANY isolation system works both ways! It's pretty hard to come up with an isolation system that performs better in one direction than the other.

he goes ahead and recommends to put 2 double glazed windows in the internal window.

Sigh! Unfortunately, architects don't get into much acoustics theory in there training: it's more of an add-on than a major theme. Which is probably why we end up with airports, stations, malls, shops, and schools that sound like they do!!!!

Double glazing is fine for a house or office, where you want to block airborne street noise and suchlike, but NOT fine for music, and certainly not in a studio, where the levels are really high and the sound covers the entire spectrum, down to very low frequencies. A window is a resonant system, and the resonant frequency is set by the mass of the two leaves and the size of the cavity between them. Double glazed windows have two thin, light-weight panes with a very small distance between them, so the resonant frequency is very high. At the resonant frequency, the window does not isolate. In fact, it can actually amplify the sound, helping it through. The window only starts isolating at a frequency that is 1.414 times the resonant frequency, and doesn't isolate well until twice as high.

With a studio window, the surface mass of the glass must be at least the same as the surface mass of the rest of the wall, and the air gap must be at least as deep as the air gap in the rest of the wall. so we are talking about mass in the range 10 kg/m2 upwards, and air gaps in the range of 4" and upwards. That's MANY times the mass and air gap of a double glazed window.

Yes, you are right and your architect is off-base. Go with thick, heavy laminate glass, one on the outer leaf and one on the inner leaf, nothing more than that. Adding more can actually reduce isolation at low frequencies, since it then becomes a 3-leaf system.

Am i right to simply use the 2 separate thickness sheets of laminate glass for both indoor and outdoor windows

Yes, you are right. That's the correct way to build studio windows: two windows only, one in the outer leaf, one in the inner. While it is better to have different thicknesses, its not critical: you can also do it with the same thickness, probably, depending on your design.

" More is not necessarily better"

Right!

im confident in saying a triple glazed window is 3 leaf (bad) 2 double glazed windows is 4 leaf (even worse) 2 sheets of laminate 2 leaf,

Right again!

a common method for a pre-built window is that it's designed to be attached to a rough opening that doesn't have to be all that precise. .... It's then prettied up with trim. You don't get glass going all the way to the wall at all. All around the edge is going to be an area where your isolation is soley from a contiguous mass of trim and the frame of the window.

Very good point, Johnny. Contractors usually don't bother sealing those shim gaps, since it isn't necessary for "normal" construction, but it sure is for studios. The best way of dealing with those gaps is to use backer rod and caulk, to build up the same thickness and mass as the surrounding drywall. And another way that DOESN'T work, is to use "foam in a can"....

I just figure if I'm coming here to get some help, I've got a duty to try to give some.

Johnny gets it!!!

the truth is that i only got him to do the drawings so i could keep it within building regulations. once the drawing are done he's out and i can really change whatever based on them. would be nice to have as many details in there as possible before starting

What I would do is to take those 2D drawings and then spend the time to make them into a 3D SketchUp model. It's amazing the things you notice when you move around inside a 3D design, that you never even noticed in 2D. And sound moves in 3D....

Not a whole lot more i can do now but source materials, dig some foundations and start designing the layouts etc,

There are things you can do in your foundations too, if you need high levels of isolation... or even just practical things, like running conduit for your cables and HVAC...

Oh if i forgot to mention the interior middle wall is actually Plasterboard/insulated stud 100mm/air cavity 100mm/insulated stud 100mm/ Plasterboard so that's all dandy

Welllll.... not really. The way I understand your quick diagram, you have an outer leaf that runs around the entire building, and a wall that runs across the middle, dividing the space in two. That's not really what you need to do, and you wont get much isolation like that. Each of the two rooms needs to be built as an isolated "room-in-a-room" system, but that's not what you are showing.

- Stuart -

[Johnnie]

im getting a fire pit in the left, some hammocks and small pond somewhere, gotta have a pond. :Dg[/attachment]

Indeed! There's always something a little bit magic about a small pond. Hammock nearby is the icing on the cake.


Thx for jumping in Stuart! Appreciate the kind words too!

[Dr.Delft]

OK, I've got it straight in my head and i'm dizzy

I can't thank you enough Stuart for simply clarifying this wall thing to me, for giving the nod on the window issue, not to mention pointing out that i had completely lost track of the room within a room, i got so confused with leaf systems that i forgot they had to be completely separated (Dying to use that somewhere, won't do it again ).

The window issue is really annoying. in my last Email to him i linked him here http://johnlsayers.com/Recmanual/Titles/Acoustics3.htm
and also pasted the entire section on windows (including the bits about how they are manufactured) from Rod's book,
His issue with the exterior window is that he could foresee rainwater leaking in as well as condensation
and for the internal window he is concerned about dust building up inside.
So he is set on having a triple glazed exterior window, and because i want 2 seperate panes, he said 2 triple glazed windows , (at this point i'm laughing to myself, a 6 leaf window) and this is the guy that understands that 2 leaf is better than anything. so i said just make it 1 triple glaze and ill change it when i get the drawings myself, done.

i explained the 'room within a room' technique and how even with the initial design of block, insulation block i would still need to isolate the rooms separately by adding the third leaf. So. We've gone and decided to used cavity blocks and fill them with mortar as leaf 1, then going ahead with stud walls for our inside rooms. roughly like this,

Small garden studio & control room.jpg

I am meeting with him on Thursday to go over the construction and layout plans and to go over some details like insulation etc. so my question now is, what is the best insulation to use for both thermal and acoustic properties, i know there's mineral wool and rockwool but these according to the architect are not very good thermal insulators, he's having a look round for some different types and im trawling this forum for the evening looking for some info on this. ill be back with updates on thursday afternoon but if there's anything in particular i should be looking for regards insulation shout.

Hopefully in the coming weeks ill feel confident enough to pitch in with some advice somewhere, until then, its back to learning why i was wrong again, again, again

Johnnie and Stuart, Thank you both.

[Soundman2020]

... and i'm dizzy

Great! Then you are now fully qualified to build a studio... That's the normal state of mind for studio design / construction, from now on until about a week after the place is finished....

We've gone and decided to used cavity blocks and fill them with mortar as leaf 1, then going ahead with stud walls for our inside rooms. roughly like this,

Exactly, that's the basic concept. You could also consider filling the blocks with dry sand, instead of mortar. It's a bit better at damping the blocks (acoustically), and also fills them better, as it "runs" and settles into all the tiny little gaps. Mortar can end up with voids and bubbles, but sand is more likely to fill everything. But mortar is fine too.

His issue with the exterior window is that he could foresee rainwater leaking in

(I had to use it too!) Why would rainwater leak into a FIXED PAN, SOLID GLASS window that is sealed hermetically with multiple seals, when he thinks it would NOT leak with an ordinary house window that is NOT sealed at all, and even opens???? He's not thinking this through at all. And he's clearly never been involved in a studio design before, either.

as well as condensation and for the internal window he is concerned about dust building up inside.

That's why you put the silica gel beads in a tray hidden within the window cavity: it absorbs any moisture in the air, so that it cannot condense on the glass. And I'm not sure where he thinks the dust will come from: the wall cavity is sealed too, and there is thick, fabric-wrapped insulation covering all of the perimeter gap between the two panes. There's no place for dust to get in. In fact, the biggest issue with studio windows is the final cleaning before they are set in place permanently: they have to be cleaned like never before, absolutely spotless, since once they are in place that's exactly how they will be forever. So if you accidentally left a finger print on the glass, then there's no way to get it off, once the windows are sealed. Nothing changes after that!

So he is set on having a triple glazed exterior window, and because i want 2 seperate panes, he said 2 triple glazed windows

You might want to give him a copy of this:

acoustical_glazing-STC-FOR-DIFFERENT-GLASS-TYPES.pdf

With special attention to the last three paragraphs...

so my question now is, what is the best insulation to use for both thermal and acoustic properties,

Either mineral wool or fiberglass. If you use mineral wool then the density should be about 50 kg/m3, and if you use fiberglass then the density should be about 30 kg/m3. Those are the optimal densities for acoustic isolation in MSM walls. Avoid blown-in insulation. Avoid sprayed-on insulation. Use only rolls, panels or batts. If you really want the best of all, then get Owens Corning OC-703. That's a semi-rigid one that is easy to work with, and is great both acoustically and thermally. It's not cheap, though.

i know there's mineral wool and rockwool

Rockwool is a brand name, for a specific type of mineral wool.

but these according to the architect are not very good thermal insulators,

http://www.rsifibre.com/about-mineral-w ... lation.php
http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/therm ... d_429.html

Check the table: it's pretty much the best stuff out there! Right up with fiberglass and foam.

Methinks your architect could use a refresher course on building materials and construction techniques...

Let us know how it goes with the meeting!



- Stuart -