Moseskill Studio

[Johnnie]

Hi everyone! I'm entering the design phase on a planned studio. Nothing terribly innovative... all based on what we can all read here, but I'd appreciate any help people are willing to give to help me avoid tripping over my own feet.

Approximate budget is fairly barebones for a studio. About $5,000 initial and then keep plinking away at it each month with what can be eeeked out.

Goals: To be at least capable of recording most styles of music, including rock band with drums. Metal isn't a common type around here though, so I'm not needing my "average" working volume to be the very highest. Looking for 60 to 65 decibels of isolation.

Hazards: 1st is a road out front. Guestimating it at 75 feet away with a 35 mph speed limit. Occasional truck rumble. The second hazard is neighbors about the same distance away towards the back of the property. There's one point where the property line comes within 10 to 15 feet of the building, and so lawnmower sounds are the second hazard. (generally on weekends). So far he's not had an issue with the kit that I've played in the existing building (and I've asked) so I think the main hazards are sound coming into the building, not going out.

Here's my initial sketchup of the floor plan. (it's still missing critical things... like doors. Sorry, it's my first day using sketchup)

MosesKill.jpg

Important elements not shown:

Planned bathroom in the lobby area. (not part of current budget)

Access from control room to live room will be via sliding glass door to serve both as view window and as access. (found cheap on craigslist)

Access to isolation room will be from live room. Also have a window to live room, and a window to the control room between the soffits.

An exterior door from the back of the control room is required by code.

Part of the reason for this current design, is that the building already has 2 of the walls in place. They are non-load bearing, and I can isolate them from the current structure at the expense of only time. I've fully uncovered one, and it's simply tacked into the ceiling with 3 or 4 nails along the wall. I'm hoping those walls across the length will not be judged inappropriately placed, as keeping them can save me the expense of replacing them.

Another part of the reason for the current design, is to minimize the noise hazards to the front and rear of the building. I'm hoping that the lobby space buffers sound transmission from the front, and the control room will buffer the live room. Not ideal I know, but if there's going to be any noise, I'd rather it not be in the area where the microphone is.

The last part of the reason for the current design is the budget limitations. I was thinking I could start with just the iso room and the control room, and then plink away from there, so part of the goal is having the capacity to do a staged build.

Question:

There is no plywood or tyvek around the outside of the structure. On another thread, a poster advised me to place mass directly against the siding in order to maintain a 2 leaf format, and that's my current plan. Are there any problems with using cement board or greenboard for this? Since the lap siding allows some water through the cracks, I'd like to make the initial layer as water resistant as possible.

I'm a little concerned about line of sight from the iso room to the live room.... what do you guys think?

[Johnnie]

Thinking along lines of sight... i can't help but be aware of some significant similarities in space to shybirds 14.3 design.

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=105

I'm starting to wonder about adapting that type of thing to my space. I'd have to lose one of the walls that I was hoping to retain, but the studio would almost certainly be all the better for it.

[Johnnie]

After looking at shybirds a bit more, and toying around with placement, I couldn't really get something I liked... it's amazing how much difference a few feet make sometimes. So I've moved in thinking towards the corner design soundman suggested on that thread which seemed to adapt a bit better to my space. I also was trying to take to heart some of John's comments on other threads, suggesting getting away from so many parallel walls. It seems to me that more can be done there with this design, such as in the back of the Iso room.

I still don't have much in the way of doors in place yet. The front door goes to the lobby. You can kind of see where I'm trying to airlock to the live room. Iso acces would be via a door to the live room, with a window in that wall for line of sight. Access to the control room would be through the bottom horizontal wall. The soundman would be looking through a window ofc. I'd also want him to have a window onto the iso room from ctrl. I also have to get a second exterior door, either off the live room or out of the control room.

MosesKill 3.jpg

MosesKill 3 ctrl.jpg

[Soundman2020]

Looking for 60 to 65 decibels of isolation.

OK. That's pretty steep, but still within the realm of possibility, if you work very carefully.

Access from control room to live room will be via sliding glass door to serve both as view window and as access. (found cheap on craigslist)

You found acoustic rated sliding glass doors on Craiglist? And cheap? That's unusual! Those things cost thousands of dollars. Are you SURE they are acoustic rated? Ordinary patio-style sliding glass doors are no good for studios, especially if you want such a high level of isolation. Before you buy, I'd check to make sure they really are acoustic rated: get the guy to send you photos, and manufacturer model number, to make sure.

Part of the reason for this current design, is that the building already has 2 of the walls in place. They are non-load bearing, and I can isolate them from the current structure at the expense of only time. I've fully uncovered one, and it's simply tacked into the ceiling with 3 or 4 nails along the wall. I'm hoping those walls across the length will not be judged inappropriately placed, as keeping them can save me the expense of replacing them.

How are they built? 2x4 16OC? OSB? Drywall? What thickness? What is on the other side? Photos?

Another part of the reason for the current design, is to minimize the noise hazards to the front and rear of the building. I'm hoping that the lobby space buffers sound transmission from the front, and the control room will buffer the live room. Not ideal I know, but if there's going to be any noise, I'd rather it not be in the area where the microphone is.

For the high levels of isolation you are talking about, you have no choice but to build everything as fully-decoupled 2-leaf MSM. That's your only hope of getting above 60 dB of isolation at a reasonable cost.

I was thinking I could start with just the iso room and the control room, and then plink away from there, so part of the goal is having the capacity to do a staged build

I would suggest that you start with the outer leaf (outer shell) that will enclose all of the actual studio part (the part that needs isolation): Beef that up to get a good solid. rigid and sufficiently massive shell, with consistent surface density all over, then do whichever of the inner rooms is most important for you: either LR or CR. Probably CR. Then when that is complete, do the next most important room (iso booth?), and finally do the last room (LR?). That way you can get each room completed as budget allows before moving on to the nest, rather than have several incomplete rooms all crawling along slowly together.

There is no plywood or tyvek around the outside of the structure. On another thread, a poster advised me to place mass directly against the siding in order to maintain a 2 leaf format, and that's my current plan. Are there any problems with using cement board or greenboard for this? Since the lap siding allows some water through the cracks, I'd like to make the initial layer as water resistant as possible.

What is on the outside at present? For the high levels of isolation you are talking about, I'm wondering if maybe stucco might be an option. An inch of that should give you a pretty good head start on mass and seal.

i can't help but be aware of some significant similarities in space to shybirds 14.3 design. ... I'm starting to wonder about adapting that type of thing to my space. I'd have to lose one of the walls that I was hoping to retain, but the studio would almost certainly be all the better for it.

That's a pretty good design, and he spent a long time perfecting it, so it would probably be a good option for you.

- Stuart -

[Johnnie]

As regards the isolation, I can accept a slightly lower level. I think it would be more accurate to say that I'm simply going to go for as much isolation as the 2 wall decoupled system, with 2 layers of 5/8 plasterboard (or greenboard/cement fiberboard) will give me.


As re: the sliding glass door... ouch... no, I'm absolutely sure they are not acoustic rated. For some reason I was under the impression that a pair of patio style doors would be sufficient. OK. Toss that idea. I'll use the patio door elsewhere in a more appropriate setting. Thanks for the heads up! Doing searches on earlier threads, it looks to me like a pair of standard patio doors would only give me about 40 db of isolation. That's a lot less than my target...


The 2 walls are built by 2x4 construction. They are sheathed in absolutely useless paneling and are hollow. The only useful bits I are the studs. The walls have to be stripped down to studs, decoupled from the ceiling, insulated, and more appropriately clad. I've already started uncovering them to make sure there's no surprises as well as pulling down the old ventilation pipes. Here's 3 images of the wall. Close up on the top, close up on the bottom, and larger view. In the newer plan, the pictured wall is the one that would have to go though. Both walls are identically constructed, so hopefully the pics are helpful.

Wall.jpg

Closeup of top of wall.jpg

Closeup bottom of wall.jpg

As re: isolation: Yes, the plan is for fully decoupled 2 leaf MSM.

As re: staging... OK! I'd rather do it right and have it take longer. I'll take your advice and work on the outer shell first.

Regarding what is on the outside, here's a pic from the earlier thread (I know you look at a lot of different threads). It's wood siding directly attached to studs. Pic was taken during the repair process of clearing out rotted material and replacing.

Wall construction.jpg

[Johnnie]

accidental double post.

[Johnnie]

I've slowly come to realize... I need to ditch the idea of of keeping any walls. The savings on the cost of a couple of studs isn't worth the risk of impairing my isolation. After looking at yolo and soundman's thread I've remembered that to get what I want isolation wise, I'm going to want to get the walls constructed properly from the get go. Rubber pad, base plate, firm attachment of base plate to the concrete pad.


Question... With the 2 leaf system, is it going to hurt me much if the outside wall is skipping the rubber pad?

Edit: never mind... I just got the answer from another thread. My concrete floor is level, and the outer wall is already anchored, so as I understand it, no pad on that, will not be a problem.

[Soundman2020]

Yup! No pad needed, and probably not even allowed by code anyway. You could also skip the inner pad, unless you need major isolation and can do the necessary calculations.

- Stuart -

[Johnnie]

OK! I can probably get away without it then on the inner wall too.


Rod's book is on order and should be here by the end of the week. This question may be covered in the book, and if so I apologize for asking something I should be able to get for myself. I'm trying to plan for where the HVAC runs will go. Since my budget is so ridiculously low, this will be one of the staged elements, and I'll have to plan for it ahead of time. My question is... where do people generally send their stale air? I'll have 4 spaces with air coming in... the control room, the live room, the iso room, and the lobby. I'm thinking the bathroom area will be fine since it won't be airtight the same way the studio will be and will have some crossover from the lobby. I suppose the attic is a possibility, but I will need to do some calculations on the capacity of the existing attic vents... I'm not sure it's enough to handle the increased flow.

Edit: One other question. If I change over the newly constructed wall to steel, I can obviously bump up my isolation levels a little bit. I've never worked with steel before. Can anyone tell me if it's a DIY type of thing?

[Johnnie]

I've got Rod's book finally, and I'm working through it. I did have one quick question, though I suppose it might belong in "construction" rather than in "design" but I was hesitant to break into a lot of different threads. In Chapter 4, Rod mentions that there's no benefit to using RC in a true double framed wall, however some of John's isolation info in the past has had RC involved in a double wall setup.

I know some of John's info that he's courteously provided is older, and he has updated it over the years, but still old information has a way of persisting. (I'm thinking of slanted windows ) Still, I just wondered if I could validate which is the current way of thinking... is there a benefit to RC in a double wall setup? I'll definitely need to use it for my ceiling which doesn't have space to be doubled, but I wouldn't mind saving the cost/time on my walls.

[Johnnie]

More questions:

1. As I'm continuing to research, I'm running across information that says the increase in isolation that steel gives, is only in a single wall application, and that there's no effective difference in a 2 wall setup. Is this correct? I trust this site a lot more than I trust some of the internet places I've run across.

2. Reading through Rods book, as he's explaining an HVAC system designed around an exchange chamber, I'm thinking that may be the best approach for my barebones budget and staged planning. I can put all the duct work in, but when I improve/upgrade/etc HVAC down the road, all the changes would be happening in the exchange chamber and nothing would have to be altered in studio portions. Part of my lobby area would make an excellent exchange chamber.... I thought about combining the bathroom/equipement room... and then suddenly remembered that there might be occasional smells in a bathroom I wouldn't care to send directly into the studio... Funny how a bad idea can seem good for a couple of seconds. Anyway... my question regarding exchange chambers is, "where do the fans go?" Does one customarily place them on the ducts taking air into the studio? Does one set them up on the ducts pulling the air out of the studio? Or does one set them up on both elements in a push-pull config?

3. Again regarding HVAC. As rod is explaining the importance of good registers and how they can introduce noise into a system, and that restrictions can introduce noise, I had a quick question regarding the air movement. How bad does that get in real life? I'm specifically thinking in terms of a run with 3 openings. The one closest to the fan being partially closed with the one farthest from the fan being all the way open... the goal being to keep pressures approximately the same. That's restricting the airflow though... is that going to give me problematic levels of noise after going through the silencer designs that circulate on this forum and in rod's book?

[Soundman2020]

1. As I'm continuing to research, I'm running across information that says the increase in isolation that steel gives, is only in a single wall application, and that there's no effective difference in a 2 wall setup. Is this correct?

I'm not so sure about that... Steel is like anything else: it is a leaf. Put it next to another leaf, with a spring in between (air), and you have an MSM system. Moving form mass law to MSM always increases isolation.

Where did you read that? Got a link?

... and then suddenly remembered that there might be occasional smells in a bathroom

Oops!

"where do the fans go?"

Anywhere you want them!

Does one customarily place them on the ducts taking air into the studio? Does one set them up on the ducts pulling the air out of the studio? Or does one set them up on both elements in a push-pull config?

To me, it makes more sense to have good fans on the outlets of the exhaust ducts, outside the building, pulling air through, and dimensioned to handle the static pressure of the entire duct system (both inlet and outlet). As long as the rooms are fully sealed, that will keep the air flowing smoothly.

You could do push-pull, but then you have to balance the flows, so one fan is not trying to force the other to overspeed, or loading it down.

- Stuart -

[Johnnie]

Thanks Stuart!

As re: the steel walls, I'll see if I can locate the link again. From what I recall though, the difference between mass law and MSM was kind of the point though. That the steel was more effective when dealing with transmission of vibrations during mass law situations, while since MSM was subject to different rules, it didn't matter as much.

[Johnnie]

Continuing to work on the floor plan. I've done 2 things.

First, my limited budget means I need to focus my initial efforts on a smaller area if I'm going to stay on this side of reality. Plan will be to expand into the larger live room area if/when there's budget. For now, I'll focus on the control room and iso room.

Second, I've decided that I don't like the feel of the corner control room. I'd particularly like room for a couch behind the mixing station, and when I put sized components in the earlier plan, it's just too cramped, so I'm moving back to the earlier plan with the longer control room. I've adapted John's "small studio" live room to this space, and then a relatively standard rectangular control room. Soffits are 3' 6" and angled at 30 degrees each, the middle section is 4 ft and a window to the iso room would go here. Then there's an additional section angled at 13.1 degrees which I would intend to be slats over fabric / insulation. Each of the doors is placed 2 feet from the corner to make room for corner bass trapping. I'm aware I don't have the second layer of the MSM system on the side that's open to the building. That would be part of my intended staging for next steps.

MosesKill small.jpg

[Johnnie]

And... moving on into more detail, I've continued to grow the design in sketchup, but as I build it in 3 dimensions, a couple of questions get raised.


1. For johns small studio live room... my understanding is that this space does NOT need a bass trap due to the design. Can I validate? This frees up enough space that I can have a window out to the live room which would aid visibility quite a bit.

2. In the pic I've attached, I'm a little nervous about my dimensions. I'm using 1 to 1.60 to 2.33 as most suitable for my space. That gives me a height of 8', a width of 12.8', and a length of 18.64'. The ratio is supposed to be one of the good ones, but those numbers sure do look awfully close to multiples. Is there something I'm missing here?

3. You can see the angled board on which will be placed a slot wall moving from the soffits to the side wall. There's currently an opening from the wide end of that angle into the open area behind the soffits. Do I need to close that off? Does it matter one way or the other?