Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

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Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

Post by characterstudios »

Hi all,

As so many on this forum, I've been lurking for quite a while. Now I'm at the point where trying to get a studio 'built' becomes relevant, and I'm having to start asking questions myself...
I hope I'm doing this post right, please tell me if something's missing, your help will be most appreciated, so anything I can do back to make it easier is good :)

We're located in Belgium, much in the country-side. I'm in the process of setting up a website, you can visit it at http://www.characterstudios.be. The house the studio is located in is stand-alone, is more than 15 meters away from the very quiet road, built in 1998. On the backside of the house, there's a large garden (> 1 acre) with the looks of a park - it was my mother's hobby, and we're keeping it well maintained (it's a major attraction for the studio!).

Over the last 20 years, I have been growing the gear collection, lots of vintage recording gear and synths, and we're now at a point where many other people become interested in using the studio - mainly due to the gear, the location & garden, guest rooms, atmosphere, etc.
The main use-case for the studio will be post-production, mixing, and we want to be able to record the odd instrument and/or vocal, but not necessarily a whole band at once (don't really have the space for that - until the day I convert the large attic, but that's out of scope for this project).

In regards to sound-levels: As we're in the country-side at a really quiet road, there is zero worry about sound escaping the building. That said, the building is all brick/concrete, was built to spec for my mother to ensure it was as quiet as possible.
As the building is brick & concrete throughout, there is barely any leakage from the other areas of the house. Daily activities in the house don't leak into the studio.
So from a mixing/production room perspective, I'm not too worried about sound coming in, although I do want to build a small booth for recording the odd instrument/vocal etc.

I have been working in the room for a while, but have recently purchased a new console, and with all the re-wiring etc. that needs to happen anyway, I felt it's the time to really look at what can be done to improve the environment, mainly acoustically. Until now, the only acoustic treatment are GIK corner-bass traps in each corner, a cloud of 3x GIK 244 panels above the current mixing position, and GIK 242 and 244 panels placed strategically throughout the room. That helps quite a bit with reducing echo, but the room's frequency response is still rather uneven - and I can tell that without measuring...

Now to some details about the room (see also the floor-plan and Sketchup file attached to this post)
* The room is where the studio must be located, it's the only choice, so I'll have to work with what's there.
* The room is on the ground-floor.
* The ceiling height is 2.6m.
* The room has an odd-shape, it's basically 3x rectangles stuck together.
* The room is tiled all-throughout with big ceramic tiles, they have been laid on a concrete on sand base (12cm concrete layer as part of foundation + 9cm poured concrete/screed). Under the room that needs to become the studio, there's no cellar.
* The walls are hollow brick blocks - 14cm thickness. (I think) that they have been filled in with cement/concrete for the outside walls, not for the inside walls. On the attached floorplan, the walls connected to the outside have been colored blue, the inside walls have been colored grey.
* The outside walls of the house have one more layer of brick (I think 10 cm) with a 6 cm gap with rockwool type insulation material.
* The ceiling is concrete, thickness 25cm (14cm 'hollow' slab of concrete, 9cm poured concrete/screed). Unless someone's jumping up and down with boots with hard heels, you don't hear anything coming from upstairs.
* There are three windows in the room, all have double isolating glass (spec: Polyglass JRA 02/97 ATG 1314). The largest window is the sliding door to the garden (WxH: 3.75m x 2.26m). Then there are two more windows, 2.33m x 1.36m and 2.23m x 1.36m, both at a height of 0.90m from the floor. All windows are set in very heavy meranti frames.
* There are two doors in the room: One goes to the hallway of the house, the other to the kitchen/dining area. The door to the kitchen is currently not closed, but we're planning to put in a (probably sliding) door (as per the floorplan attached to the post).

Limitations that I need to keep in mind:
* The current layout has a seating area next to the window to the garden. The garden is a major part of the studio's vibe, so I can't compromise on the location for that. I'm all up for building structure within the rest of the room if needed though.
* The location where I currently would like to build the recording booth will need glass in it so that the light from the window in that space gets back into the studio. It doesn't need to be an all-glass wall, but there needs to be a window of at least 70cm height and 2/3rds of the width.
* I cannot remove the tiles from the room, except for maybe one strip if I have to build a wall. I do have a large collection of vintage tapestry that can be applied over most of the space though - I'm currently doing that, and it is reducing echo originating from the floors significantly.

Budget: As it stands, between 5 and 10K Euro, but I have some flexibility, and will consider going over that if ROI is significant enough.

Attached visuals:
* Floor Plan (Outside walls are blue, inside walls are grey).
Floor Plan - Room Template.jpg
* Google Sketchup file of the space
Plan.skp
* Floor Plan with some doodled thoughts I had so far.
Floor Plan - Ideas.jpg
* Google Sketchup with the console added to the space and a wall layout I was thinking about for the recording booth.
Plan_wall.zip
* Floor plan idea with "room in room" for control room and recording booth.
Floor Plan - With rooms in room.jpg
I hope that's sufficient information, here are the questions I'm seeking to answer at this point in time:
1) I understand that the materials and shape of the room are less than ideal. With the restriction in regards to the seating area & the window to the garden, is there anything that can be done sensibly to make the room into a decent enough control room?
2) I have added a very quick doodling to the floor-plan with some ideas I had on how 'optimize' the layout, create space for a recording area, and remove some of the straight angles and parallel walls in the room. That's in the floor-plan that I've marked up with red details. The sketch is of course an idea only, and I'm probably running ahead of the facts? Or is this a valid starting point?
3) As said above, I have no problem building a structure within the room to accommodate a mixing/production room (crammed with gear though), and a small recording booth... as long as I can keep the seating area and get to use light from 2 of the 3 windows... See the 3rd floor layout with the 'room in room' concept - that would allow for at least using 2 of the windows - if I can make that work with the recording booth... Are the dimensions of the control room large enough for this purpose - how much is it of a problem when most of the walls are going to have racks to waist-height, and having some keyboards and toys on racks in the back?

I'll take it from here, I'm sure I have much to learn, think over and discuss... but thanks upfront to anyone spending any time on this :)

Regards,

Dee
characterstudios
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Re: Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

Post by characterstudios »

It's a fact that once starts writing, one starts thinking more :D

I was mulling over the 'room within room' layout, and have made a more clean layout of that, certainly for the
control room. That's based on some of the plans posted in the thread with sample plans. I know that the angles etc. are not completely
correct, I stretched the lenght of the room by 10%, but it's just to give an idea...

Is this a realistic direction?
Floor Plan - With rooms in room.jpg
Regards,

Dee
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Re: Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

Post by John Sayers »

the last one is the best - I'd flip the control room so the front window matches the existing window and you enter through the rear of the control room.
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characterstudios
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Re: Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

Post by characterstudios »

Thanks John.

I had thought about flipping it around, but I will probably not end up doing that, as I actually don't want that window...

I'm going to take some time to work out this layout with more precision, I'll post a Sketchup file for feedback.

Regards,

Dee
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Re: Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

Post by Soundman2020 »

John's suggestion about flipping it around is not just to do with the window: it is also about the room acoustics. If you leave it as you have it now, the absorption on your first reflection points will have to go right in front of the middle of your sliding glass doors! If you flip it around, then that will be on the walls...
I cannot remove the tiles from the room, except for maybe one strip if I have to build a wall.
Those tiles are on the floor, right? That's great! You do not need to remove them! Tiles are a great floor surface, acoustically.
I do have a large collection of vintage tapestry that can be applied over most of the space though - I'm currently doing that, and it is reducing echo originating from the floors significantly.
I'd be careful with that: Tapestry is somewhat similar to carpet, acoustically: random, selective, high end absorption. That does exactly the opposite of what small rooms need. Small rooms (like yours) need stacks of low end absorption (bass trapping), some mild absorption plus diffusion in the mids, and mostly diffusion with no absorption in the highs. But carpet and tapestry absorb lots highs, a bit of mids, and no lows at all. Treating with plain tapestry is going make the room sound boomy, muddy, dull, and unpleasant. The room needs to be treated properly, with balanced application of treatment for each frequency range. The tapestry can be part of that, but not by itself. For example, if it is "breathable", then it could be used as facing on side absorbers, bass traps, and other absorptive panels.

But you won't be ready to decide on treatment until you actually build the room. Only once the shell is finished. That's when you will be able to run the acoustic analysis software that will tell you what the problems are, then based on the results of that you'll know how to treat it. Treating it now will not be useful, since you'll have to take out the treatment again in order to run the tests.

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Re: Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

Post by Soundman2020 »

Whoa!! I just noticed this on your web site:

5:1 surround listening environment

Ok, that changes everything. The setup you are proposing is far from ideal for 5.1. You should probably take a look at the EBU spcifications for setting up a 5.1 control room.

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Re: Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

Post by characterstudios »

Hi Stuart,

Thanks for all that feedback.

Don't worry about the 5.1 listening environment, that's actually another room in the house that's already set up :) This room will be for stereo use only.

Great that the tiles are good. I thought that already, but as I also have a concrete ceiling, currently I was putting some tapestry on the floor. I do recall soft ceiling, hard floor, so that makes sense.
In the future, I'll indeed use some of the tapestry in a more decorative way (on top of absorption panels would probably be a decent way to use them?).
Anyway, I'm aware that I'm only in the design phase now, and can't decide on treatment yet. In my first email I was referring to the treatment I currently use (which, while it is helping some, is obviously far from perfect).

In regards to flipping around the layout, I had based my layout on the SAE layout below, which also has sliding doors at that spot? Is that plan omitting absorption in those spots?
Control Rool.gif
Thanks again for the input!

Dee
Last edited by characterstudios on Mon Mar 18, 2013 2:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

Post by characterstudios »

Here's what I was talking about. Did a quick sketchup of it yesterday. See pic & Sketchup file below.
I didn't do the back of the room basstraps, this is more about the front of the room and the need for absorption where the glass doors connect to walls where the speakers are mounted. The side walls are also not angled at 6 degrees, hadn't figured out how to do that easily in Sketchup yet (I did in the meantime :) )
RoomInRoom_test.skp
RoomInRoom_test.png
So, from what you're saying I would need to add absorption where the red lines are in the picture below?
FromTopWithAbsorption.png
I'm asking as I was looking at for instance Warren Jergen's studio, which has a room that's somewhat smaller than mine, and doesn't have absorption at that location either?

Regards,

Dee
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Re: Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

Post by Soundman2020 »

In regards to flipping around the layout, I had based my layout on the SAE layout below, which also has sliding doors at that spot? Is that plan omitting absorption in those spots?
Yes! :) But the real answer is "it depends"...

The issue is that if you don't go with a true RFZ design, the you have first reflection points. And if you have first reflection points, then you have the potential for sound waves coming from your speakers to "bounce off" those points and get back to your ears with only a very short time delay with respect to the direct sound (well within the Haas time), and at a very high level, just 1 or 2 dB down from the direct sound. That messes with your stereo image, sound stage, and even the frequency response, since there must be comb filtering going on there. So those reflections are a Bad Thing, and first reflection points are normally treated with thick absorption to at least bring the level of those reflections down somewhat, and perhaps also change the angle a bit.

However, the question of "WHAT "is reflected comes up: If the sound that is arriving at the first reflection point is mostly high frequency, then you have one problem. If it is mostly lows, then you have another, which you can't deal with using absorption anyway. Highs are the BIG problem, lows less so. But since all speakers have different dispersion patterns for different frequencies, and all rooms have different angles and distances, then ONLY way to tell for sure if you have a problem or not, is to look at the specs for YOUR speakers, then ray-trace them in YOUR plan, to see what frequencies are going to be affected, and if that is going to be an issue.

According to your web site, you are a very smart guy since you are using Adam speakers as your mains. I mean that seriously: I'm a big fan of Adams, due to their "open" and "clean" sound, and amazing high end response, up to something incredible like 50 kHz (if memory serves me). One of the reasons why you get such great sound form the Adams, is those amazing little ART tweeters, and their ability to spread high frequency sound around evenly, WITHOUT focusing it into a beam, which is what typical domes and horns do. So you get great off-axis response with the Adams. 30° off-axis is pretty much the same as on-axis, and even at 60° off-axis you are still getting pretty decent high frequency levels.

Which brings us to your speakers in your room: Since Adam's have such fantastic off-axis response, they are sending a pretty good portion of the audio spectrum out at high angles... directly towards those nice reflective glass doors, at your first reflection points. You see where this is going... :) So even though those reflections are coming from a fairly large off-axis angle from the speaker, there is still going to be a lot of high frequency content in that, and you first reflections are going to sound somewhat as if you had another pair of speakers out there, embedded in the glass, slightly de-tuned, slightly delayed, and out of phase... Not a good situation.

So if you were using lesser speakers with poorer off-axis response, then it would not be so much of an issue, but with the high quality of the Adams, you need to take special care with that.
I'm asking as I was looking at for instance Warren Jergen's studio, which has a room that's somewhat smaller than mine, and doesn't have absorption at that location either?
I'm pretty sure that John took great care with the design details on that one, and got the angles right! :) In any event, a narrower room is better for that point of view, since a smaller splay angle on the wall will still keep the objectionable reflections away from the mix position. With a larger room, you need larger splay angles to get the same effect.

But to make certain, you should do the exercise of actually ray-tracing the first reflections on that diagram, and comparing that with the dispersion angles of your speakers.
So, from what you're saying I would need to add absorption where the red lines are in the picture below?
Exactly. Either that, or angle the glass more to create a true RFZ.


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Re: Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

Post by characterstudios »

Thanks Stuart, much appreciate the input!

It all makes sense, so I'm going to continue to draw some plans that take in account what you've told me.

I'll play around with the angles more and see if I can come up with an RFZ design. The good thing of changing the angles would be that I can move the monitors inward (narrower), allowing me to move the mixer (and sweet-spot) forward towards the speakers. In the last design I posted, the sweet-spot was about in the middle of the room. If that means that the CR needs to become a bit more narrow, so be it, I don't really have a problem with that. It might mean that the keyboards I was planning to have in the CR might have to move into the recording area - which at the moment I consider a bit of a luxury problem :)

Now, one question about RFZ design: Certainly from a horizontal perspective my head tells me I can probably make that work. Now, with the ceiling being only 2.57m high, am I fooling myself going after RFZ type design, as the low ceiling will make it difficult/impossible to achieve required angles for RFZ properly anyway? Or is that solvable with angling the front-wall combined with absorption above the mixer & sweet-spot? I'm looking at the Warren Jergen's studio design where absorbtion above the area of front-wall to sweet-spot seems to be the case?
(BTW, In my first post i said 2.60m ceiling height - that was from reading the architect plans, after measuring, it's actually 3cm less :( )

In regards to the Adams: I have had them for quite some years, and really like them, the wide sweet-spot has served my workflow well. The only minus would be the artifacts that come with the front-ported design, in the beginning it wasn't too obvious to hear, but once you start having experience with other monitors/designs, it is pretty obvious - albeit not in a way that stops me from working with them (at all).

Regards,

Dee
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Re: Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

Post by Soundman2020 »

The good thing of changing the angles would be that I can move the monitors inward (narrower), allowing me to move the mixer (and sweet-spot) forward towards the speakers. In the last design I posted, the sweet-spot was about in the middle of the room. If that means that the CR needs to become a bit more narrow, so be it, I don't really have a problem with that.
The other thing that you could try, is changing the toe-in angle of the speakers. :shock: :!: Yeah, I know: Pretty much every text book insists that it has to be 30°, or if not then terrible, dreadful, scary things will happen... except that they don't actually happen! :) If you change the angle to 35°, or 37°, or 41.452467°, then I do promise that you will not get arrested by the Speaker Angle Police, nor will your studio be hurled into a black hole as punishment! In fact, all that you can say about 30° is that it is "optimal", but variations do not matter all that much. You can actually go as much as 45°, if you really have to (although that does tend to narrow your sweet spot a bit too much, and you can start getting "shadowing" from your own head if you are close to the speakers), but angling a few degrees more (or less) than 30° is not going to bring the wrath of the Dreaded Speaker Demon down upon you. If an angle other than 30° works best for your speakers in your room, then it works, period.

So if angling your speakers a bit will allow you to keep them a good distance apart while also getting your mix position to a better location and in addition reducing first reflection issues, ... well then, what is there to not like about that?
Now, with the ceiling being only 2.57m high, am I fooling myself going after RFZ type design, as the low ceiling will make it difficult/impossible to achieve required angles for RFZ properly anyway? Or is that solvable with angling the front-wall combined with absorption above the mixer & sweet-spot?
There are several ways of dealing with that. One is to angle the ceiling, either all of it or just a small part at the front. Another is to build a hard-backed ceiling cloud that hangs above your desk. You could even (gasp!) raise your speakers just a bit above the optimal 1.2m mark, and tilt them down slightly (as long as you don't overdo it). (The last option is only useful if you just need a slight tweak: you can't raise them very much, nor tilt them very much).

So there are options. The simplest is the hard-backed cloud, and that can be very effective. You can also adjust it as needed, if you hang it with chains. So if you get the angle wrong at first, you can just move the chains by a link or two to fix that. It's a lot harder to adjust the angle of the entire ceiling if you got that wrong! :)
I'm looking at the Warren Jergen's studio design where absorbtion above the area of front-wall to sweet-spot seems to be the case?
Perhaps, but to me that angled section above the window looks like it might be there to hide something. The colorful cloth above the desk looks like a cloud, for sure, but does not seem to be angled as much as I would expect. There might be more going on above it than meets the eye...
The only minus would be the artifacts that come with the front-ported design, in the beginning it wasn't too obvious to hear, but once you start having experience with other monitors/designs, it is pretty obvious
Yeah, that is an issue with many (if not most) front ported speakers, from any manufacturer, not just Adam. (Although I heard they did have a problem with the A7X when it first came out, and later modified the port tubes to fix it). Port noise is just a fact of life: the price you pay at very low frequencies for a bit of bass extension.

The easiest way to deal with it (in my opinion) is to just add a sub and kill the bass on the mains. If you cross over at around 80-90 Hz (or so) then the port noise just doesn't happen, since the frequencies that would have caused it are now coming out the sub. I have a pair of A7's plus a Sub-8, and that works out very well.

That's one option. Another option is to, well... see below...
I'll play around with the angles more and see if I can come up with an RFZ design.
You might want to also consider soffit-mounting (a.k.a. "flush mounting") your speakers. That can work wonders for eliminating all of the artifacts associated with free-standing speakers in small rooms. No more SBIR, phasing, comb filtering, front-wall reflections, edge diffraction, etc., plus some extra bass extension that does NOT cause port noise, plus better clarity, tighter bass, improved sound stage, automatically corrected baffle step response (power imbalance), etc., etc., etc. If you think your P22A's sound good as they are, wait until you hear them soffit-mounted. :!:
I'm looking at the Warren Jergen's studio design ...
Yup. And he has soffit mounted speakers... :)


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Re: Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

Post by characterstudios »

Excellent. I was seriously considering soffit mounting, so that helps.

Just a quick question: Soffit mounting will not change the dispersion angle of the speakers (at least for what's radiating from the front), so I would still need to ensure correct angles for side-wall anyway isn't it?

Regards,

Dee
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Re: Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

Post by Soundman2020 »

Just a quick question: Soffit mounting will not change the dispersion angle of the speakers (at least for what's radiating from the front), so I would still need to ensure correct angles for side-wall anyway isn't it?
Well, a soffit won't change the dispersion angle for highs and mids, but for lows it will. Where by "lows" I mean all frequencies below the baffle step frequency. Those would normally have wrapped around behind the speaker, due their wavelengths being longer than the size of the baffle, but now they are forced forwards into the room, by the "infinite" baffle of the soffit front panel. That's why you need to adjust the low frequency roll-off control on the back of your speaker, to compensate for the correct power imbalance. Since the baffle step issue is due entirely to the choice of the dimensions of the speaker cabinet (chosen by the manufacturer), the point where the power imbalance starts to happen is "written in stone" during the design process, and compensated for by the manufacturer in the circuitry. But since your soffit creates an infinite baffle, that problem simply goes away: therefore the compensation is no longer needed. The speaker can now radiate the way all speakers should: entirely into half-space, with ALL frequencies being radiated at the same power level, forwards only. So the power imbalance is fixed, and the artificial bass boost is no longer needed, as you are supplying it naturally. Which implies that the dispersion angle for the lows is now 180°, instead of 360°.

Of course, those are very low frequencies, so it makes no real difference to the side wall design: the angles for those side walls need to be calculated for the lowest frequency that would be reflected by them, which is normally up there in the mids anyway.

In other words, soffit mounting solves all those problems I mentioned without creating any new ones that wouldn't have been there anyway.

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Re: Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

Post by Deesubsee »

Soundman2020 wrote:You might want to also consider soffit-mounting (a.k.a. "flush mounting") your speakers.
I'm just getting to know this site and came here in part because I've been looking for ideas on flush mounting. A friend told me he'd read much detail about the design and build of flush monitor CRs here. So I'll keep using the search feature but if you know of the best starting point threads, please link them.

My interest for a flush mounting build is my current (small : 8T x 11W x 12L) mix room. I want to try a modular approach as our plan is to move in a couple of years.
Last edited by Deesubsee on Wed Apr 03, 2013 6:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Trying to figure out how to use my available space?

Post by Soundman2020 »

A friend told me he'd read much detail about the design and build of flush monitor CRs here.
Yup! There really is a lot of info here, including a couple of basic design philosophies, plus many examples of how people have done it in practice.
So I'll keep using the search feature but if you know of the best starting point threads, please link them.
Unfortunately, there's no real index to the forum, and the search feature is only very basic, so it can take a while to find what you are looking for. However, I often find that while I'm searching for something, I find other intriguing things along the way, and learn something new that I didn't even know was here! so searching can be useful, just from the sidetracks it takes you down... The forum is huge, and there is a lot of info on soffits, so please feel free to dig in, search around, and if you don't find what you are looking for, then start your own thread and ask whatever questions you need! But also please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things! :)

Was there something specific that you needed help with, or just soffits in general?

In the meantime, Here's a couple of good "soffit mount" threads:

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=66
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=718
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =12&t=9359

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