Ground-up studio build in Perth

[Birdsteeth]

Hi Everyone,

This is my first post, I think I'm ready to join the fray! After months of reading Rod Gervais' book and watching all the great builds in progress here and on Gearslutz, I'm ready to take the plunge. My situation is:

I am a drummer who loves recording and I play professionally in bands. I need a space that I can both record live drums as well as practice/rehearse my band. At the moment I have 2 rooms that have a drumkit permanently miced up in one and all my studio gear in the other. It's not ideal as there is little isolation and I've outgrown them with too much gear.

I have approximately an 8m x 7m space in my backyard that I want to build a studio in. It will need to have the best isolation possible as my neighbours are fairly close and I'd like to be able to play in there fairly late without disturbing them.

Where I've gotten to so far:

I've consulted a couple of builders who really don't understand the concepts outlined in Rod's book and aren't really willing to be open to a different way of doing things. So, I think a good way for me to go forward is to get the external structure built and do the internal gyprock/framing/insulation/wiring etc myself with a few tradie mates (who happen to be musos thankfully).

What I wanted to ask:

- Is there a viable alternative to having a brick structure? Is it essential to have brick external walls to achieve the amount of isolation needed (STC mid 60s I reckon). The reason I ask this is because the prices I've been quoted to put down a separate concrete slab, brick walls and a Colourbond roof is getting up to the $40 000+ mark (along with getting plans drafted and plans put through council etc). I was hoping to get it done for the low $30 000 mark - is that an unrealistic budget?

- Is it viable to put up steel or wood framing and then clad it with a concrete product (like http://www.scyon.com.au) and get good results? My worry with this is if such a structure would be strong enough to support the extra weight of 2-layers of 15mm gyprock on the walls and ceiling. It seems like a company like Stratco would be able to prefab such a frame for a reasonable amount.

Sorry for the long-windedness, it's just that after reading so much on here and in Rod's book, I can't seem to find many ground-up builds like this in my budget range. Any help I could get would be most appreciated as I'm itching to get started.

Thanks,

Sam.

[Soundman2020]

Hi Sam, and welcome to the forum!

I have approximately an 8m x 7m space in my backyard that I want to build a studio in. It will need to have the best isolation possible as my neighbours are fairly close and I'd like to be able to play in there fairly late without disturbing them.

Great! So this is a "greenfield" project, building literally form the ground up, and you can design it any way you want?

I've consulted a couple of builders who really don't understand the concepts outlined in Rod's book and aren't really willing to be open to a different way of doing things.

Sounds like average, normal contractors to me...

So, I think a good way for me to go forward is to get the external structure built and do the internal gyprock/framing/insulation/wiring etc myself with a few tradie mates (who happen to be musos thankfully).

Sounds like a good plan. If you can't trust the contractors to do it right, then doing it yourself is a good alternative, especially if you have skilled labor to help you, for the cost of a case of beer!

- Is there a viable alternative to having a brick structure? Is it essential to have brick external walls to achieve the amount of isolation needed (STC mid 60s I reckon).

Brick as compared to what? But probably the answer is "not necessarily". Brick will certainly give you a real good starting point for isolation, but there are other ways of doing that. You should probably do some rough calculations and see what works out more economical in YOUR area, based on labour rates and material prices. What is cheap where I live might be expensive where you live, and vice-versa. There is also the issue of building codes: what type of structures are you allowed to build, in your garden?

The reason I ask this is because the prices I've been quoted to put down a separate concrete slab, brick walls and a Colourbond roof is getting up to the $40 000+ mark (along with getting plans drafted and plans put through council etc). I was hoping to get it done for the low $30 000 mark - is that an unrealistic budget?

Hard to say, since I don't know what prices and fees are like where you live, but for me, where I live, 40k sounds a bit too much. I could probably get that shall built for about half of that here.

- Is it viable to put up steel or wood framing and then clad it with a concrete product (like http://www.scyon.com.au) and get good results?

It is possible, yes, but maybe not with at specific product. I'm not familiar with that product, but it looks like some sort of fiber-cement siding in strips, simulating wood. If so, then I used a similar thing here when I built my shed many years ago, and one good thing about it, is that it stands up to the elements really well. However, the web site says that it is "light weight", which does not bode well for isolation. To isolate well, you need mass, and lots of it. Also, since it is strips, the surface is not one solid, rigid, sealed piece, which is what you need. So you could use that as the final outer decoration, on top of something else that provides your actual mass and seal, such as thick OSB or marine grade plywood.

My worry with this is if such a structure would be strong enough to support the extra weight of 2-layers of 15mm gyprock on the walls and ceiling

Hang on a sec! I thought we were talking about your outer leaf? The inner-leaf is not supported by the outer-leaf in any way at all! They are two totally separate, independent structures. The outer-leaf is the building shell, what you see from outside, and supports the roof. The inner-leaf has its own framing that cannot touch the outer leaf at any point. So the interior drywall is not attached to, and not supported by, the same structure that supports your siding and holds up your roof.

But anyway, to answer your question: Yes. Properly designed wood or steel structure can indeed hold up your outer-leaf. In fact, that's the standard way houses are built in the USA, and other countries! 2x4 framing (mostly), OSB on the outside, then siding. Roof trusses resting on top, plywood or OSB deck, shingles. It works. So if that is a cheaper option than brick where you live, then yes, it is fine. Provided that your building code allows it, of course.

It seems like a company like Stratco would be able to prefab such a frame for a reasonable amount.

... or you could build it yourself. Framing a building with wood is not hard. If I can do it, then pretty much anyone can! If you can swing a hammer and drive a nail reasonably straight, then it can be done. And if you can't do that, you could rent or buy a pneumatic framing nailer to do it for you (that's what I did...): There are plenty of books that can teach you simple framing techniques. And since you say that you have some tradesmen friends, I reckon one or two of those should be able to swing a hammer...

I can't seem to find many ground-up builds like this in my budget range. Any help I could get would be most appreciated as I'm itching to get started.

There are a few here on the forum, but you might have to search a bit to find them. Most are built within an existing shell of some type.

But before you even think about breaking ground, you really should get your design as detailed as possible, with every last little thing in place, and optimized for both isolation and acoustics.



- Stuart -

[Birdsteeth]

Hi Stuart, thank you so much for taking the time and effort to reply to my post - I really appreciate it.

I've found a builder who is getting a quote together to build my structure, he's a musician as well as a licenced builder so it was great having someone understand (and be patient!) while I was trying to explain. I re-read my previous post and there were a few things there that I didn't explain very well but you got the gist of what I was trying to say. Everything you corrected me on was what I had in mind, so I think I'm on the right track. Just for my reassurance, I've included a more detailed sketchup of how I was planning the wall construction for you to look at.

I do have a couple of questions about the roof and ceiling construction - is a scissor truss ever a good idea in studio design? The reason I ask is I'm drawn to the idea of having a gable ceiling to get a bit more 'room' in my drum overheads. I think though that it might go against what you advised in not having any internal structure coupled to anything exterior. If that's the case, is it better to have gable trussing off my internal stud frame... or should I just scrap the idea all together and have a flat ceiling? I've included a sketchup of what I thought.

Also, my builder was suggesting that the internal stud structure had to be tied in to the external for stability, but am I right in thinking if i had my ceiling joists connected to the inner stud frame then that would stabilise it?

Thanks so much again Stuart.

[Birdsteeth]

Sorry mate, I just read and re-read your post and I didn't answer a few things:

It is definitely cheaper to build how I'm suggesting rather than brick - I'm not too sure why. My builder says that getting what I'm proposing through council won't be a problem in my area.

I'm not too sure if OSB (I had to look up what it was!) is a very popular building material here in Australia, plus everything I read suggests that it is more for internal use? I suppose that wouldn't be a problem if it's under cladding. I thought that some sort of cement board (http://www.usg.com/exteriors/sheathing.html) might work well if it's rigid enough and has the mass that I'm after?

My builder is going to frame up the interior for me as well. I've offered to be on-site doing labour as well, to hopefully keep costs down as well as a great opportunity to learn. He prefers to work with wood framing, so I'm happy with that. I got the steel idea because I thought I could buy a pre-fab shed and modify it, but it turned out to be more of a hassle than having someone build from scratch.

The cladding I was talking about was always going to be for decoration, I quite like the weatherboard look (that's what we call it here). My wife pointed out that it would probably look nicer as the studio is going to be built fairly close to our brick house - having a large brick structure might have made it look like a school or prison yard!

Cheers,

Sam.

[Soundman2020]

I've found a builder who is getting a quote together to build my structure, he's a musician as well as a licenced builder

Excellent! That will probably work out much better.

I do have a couple of questions about the roof and ceiling construction - is a scissor truss ever a good idea in studio design?

You can do it the way you show with resilient channel on the ceiling joists (or RSIC clips plus hat channel), yes, but your isolation wont be as good as if you have a fully decoupled ceiling: The big question is: how much isolation do you need? (measured in real-world decibels, with a sound level meter). Based on that number, you can look at alternative building techniques and materials. There are research documents from independent acoustic labs that show actual acoustic isolation measurements of hundreds of different types of construction, so once you have your number (how much isolation you need) you can page through those and find ways of getting there that you can build and that fit your budget. That's the normal process for deciding how to build.

The reason I ask is I'm drawn to the idea of having a gable ceiling to get a bit more 'room' in my drum overheads.

Well, since you are building form the ground up, you could always just build the roof a bit higher than you were planning... You have the freedom to built it as high as code will allow, if you want. And yes, drums do need a lot of space to sound good, especially height, so it really is worth going higher if you can.

Also, my builder was suggesting that the internal stud structure had to be tied in to the external for stability,

Ahhh! Another one of "those" guys! If he thinks he needs that for the inner-leaf, then ask him what he attaches the structure of a house to when he builds one, in order to "stabilize" it, and hold it up! ... Does he use sky hooks, hanging from the clouds? But that's OK. I'm just pulling his leg a little here, as lots of people don't get this at first: it doesn't sound logical, until you think about it. The inner-leaf supports itself in the same way as a house does. As you correctly guessed, you build it the same way as you would build a flat-roofed house, with joists across the top connecting the walls, and the structure holds itself up in the exact same manner as a normally framed house: The wall and ceiling framing work together, structurally reinforcing each other, to provide a stable, strong structure, the OSB provides strength in sheer, the framing provides strength in compression, and the wall corners provide strength in bending as well as preventing each other from falling over.

Why would the inner-leaf fall over when built this way, if the outer leaf doesn't?

The only reason you might need some form of "connection" is for seismic activity: earthquakes. If the ground frequently moves under your feet where you live, like it does where I live, then you might indeed need seismic snubbers or sway bracing, especially if you have very long walls, but there are special acoustic designs for those (involving springs and various types of rubber) that provide the needed support without creating flanking paths.

Of course, you can only build your inner-leaf like that if you do put joists across the top of those inner-leaf walls. With no joists up there, then you do need acoustically isolated sway braces at the wall tops.

but am I right in thinking if i had my ceiling joists connected to the inner stud frame then that would stabilise it?

Exactly. As long as they are not also connected to your outer-leaf studs...

Which means that if you do want to use scissor trusses and have a gabled ceiling, you can do that, but the inner-leaf ceiling will also need to be framed in a similar way, following the contours of the outer leaf... which can get complicated.


On your diagrams. There are a couple of minor points there:

1) You don't need the resilient channel on the inner-leaf: Since you are already decoupling the entire leaf by NOT attaching it to the outer leaf, then it is already decoupled: Decoupling it a second time with RC gains you very, very little, practically nothing. Not worth it. So save yourself some money, time and effort, and just nail/screw the drywall direct to the studs.

2) You show rubber under your framing, but that won't "float" or isolate your wall: The wall still has to be bolted to the floor / foundations, and as soon as you put your bolt through the rubber, you are short-circuiting the isolation it provided. Each bolt is obviously touching both the framing and the subfloor, so you have a hard connection right there. That's a major flanking path, and negates the decoupling effect of the rubber.

However, you might still want to use rubber under there, for a different reason: Seals. Air-tight seals are critical to good isolation, and if your concrete floor is uneven, cracked or in a bad state, then a strip of thick rubber can go a long way to improving that seal.

3) You show two layers of dryrwall on there, and that's fine, but it makes more sense to have one layer of OSB (more on that later) plus one of drywall, for two reasons: a) structural integrity. Drywall is not strong in sheer, but OSB is. It greatly strengthens the wall. b) nailing surface. With a layer of OSB under your drywall, you have a handy nailing surface around the entire room: So you can hang any type of acoustic treatment, anywhere you need it, without having to worry about hunting for studs to attach it to.

4) The same applies to your roof deck: I would not use concrete board (I assume you mean fiber-cement board) up there, since you need to walk on that deck while you are installing the shingles (tiles), and it won't hold your weight. It also doesn't have much strength in sheer, to resist wind loads. So here too I would use at least one layer of OSB for the roof deck.

I'm not too sure if OSB (I had to look up what it was!) is a very popular building material here in Australia, plus everything I read suggests that it is more for internal use?

If you can't find it, or if it is expensive, then marine-grade structural plywood is fine as a substitute (it goes under various names, but basically is meant for outdoor applications that require strength too.) OSB is VERY commonly used for exterior cladding in house building, but is usually covered with some type of moisture barrier before adding the final finish siding. That final layer could be fiber-cement board, or it could be as you show: that plus fiber-cement decorative siding. But you really do need the structural strength of OSB or plywood on that framing, to resist sheer loads on the walls. Fiber-cement siding on its own probably won't do the job.

Brien ("xSpace") is probably the guy here who can guide you much better than I can with this type of structural thing: it's his specialty, so I'm hoping he chimes in with suggestions here.



- Stuart -

[xSpace]

"Also, my builder was suggesting that the internal stud structure had to be tied in to the external for stability, but am I right in thinking if i had my ceiling joists connected to the inner stud frame then that would stabilise it?
"

No, the ceiling joists will not stabilize it. What will is what Stuart has recommend and that would be to make it a fully decoupled wall assembly by installing OSB or a comparable sheathing to the interior side of the inner framing. This reduces completely the want for a support system from the interior to the exterior which can always become a bridging point.

The idea is to erect the interior framing (no RC and clips required) and to install OSB or similar material to the interior framing to address the racking ability of the framing due to loads placed by either the wall panels or the ceiling panels that will have an ability to shift.

"Is there a viable alternative to having a brick structure? Is it essential to have brick external walls to achieve the amount of isolation needed (STC mid 60s I reckon)."

Depends. If the brick is a simple veneer and is coupled to the framing with brick ties, then you may want to consider a block wall with poured cells.

You have to consider the two elements of this build as exactly that. Two . One does one thing and supports what it supports and the interior if done properly will support itself with no restrictions placed on it from the exterior of the build.

These ideas all hinge on your local environment, seismic conditions and what you can get the local code folks to accept.

[Birdsteeth]

Thanks Stuart and thank you Brien for chiming in and helping me out as well.

I've revised my sketches and hopefully now I'm on the right track. I've found products here in Western Australia that they just call 'structural plywood' which seems to be cross-laminated plies in various thicknesses. It looks like it's cheaper than 'marine ply', just uglier - which doesn't matter. Thanks for the tip on not needing resilliant channel, that makes sense because the inner structure will be de-coupled from the outer anyway. As far as the rubber under the framework, the idea was to make it an air-tight seal, could that be achieved with caulking around the edges instead of using the rubber altogether? If I can save a couple of bucks here and there, I can put that towards other stuff that requires it.

I've also revised the roof and ceiling. My aim, being a drummer, is for the most isolation I can realistically achieve so having a fully de-coupled ceiling is certainly the go instead of RC. I guess that the roof needs something like a scissor truss for stability? If that's the case, would I need to do something similar on the internal if I wanted a vaulted ceiling instead of a flat one? The plan is to build as high as council will let me, I suppose that having extra ceiling cavity space will help with fitting HVAC ducting in too. I've sketched 2 versions, the first one with the scissor truss and the second without.

Thanks so much again guys, your input is invaluable.

[xSpace]

"could that be achieved with caulking around the edges instead of using the rubber altogether? If I can save a couple of bucks here and there,"

Expecting that the floor is moderately flat then caulking the either, bottom of the plate as you erect the wall or caulking the interior side of the framing, will do. What you are trying to do is stop air/sound from moving in/out.

[Soundman2020]

I've revised my sketches and hopefully now I'm on the right track

Much better! I would make the structural ply 15mm, not 12, and you can probably get away with just one layer of drywall on top of that, if you need to bring your costs down a bit. You can still use green glue between the plywood and the drywall. You could also substitute OSB for plywood, if OSB happens to be cheaper where you live.

I guess that the roof needs something like a scissor truss for stability?

There are many designs for roof trusses, and you can buy them ready-made, or you an build them yourself. Just use whatever is required by your local building code, that can handle the loads you'll be placing on it.

If that's the case, would I need to do something similar on the internal if I wanted a vaulted ceiling instead of a flat one?

That might be harder to do. I'm not really sure: maybe Brien can offer advise on how to do that. It will need some type of bracing, yes, but how to do that is beyond my knowledge.

The plan is to build as high as council will let me, I suppose that having extra ceiling cavity space will help with fitting HVAC ducting in too.

Absolutely! You do need space to run your ducts, and maybe even to install your air handler, if you choose to go that route.


- Stuart -

[Birdsteeth]

Hi Stuart and Brien,

It's been a while since I posted here, my original plan went out the window as my wife decided that she wanted a new house and that building the previous studio would tie us to the old house. So, the good news is we are building a new house and we're putting a separate 10m x 8m studio in the backyard. I've been studying this forum and Rod's book for the past couple of years and I think I have a fair grasp on what it'll take to get the isolation I need, my attention now is focussed on getting the rooms sounding great too.

Some additional information about the new build:

It is a completely separate structure from the house on its own concrete slab
The outer walls are brick and I've instructed the builders to leave the entire interior unfinished (ie. no ceiling, no lights etc) as myself and a builder friend will be doing all the interior work ourselves
The roof is Colourbond with 18mm plywood and sarking between the joists and the Colourbond.

I've attached a new 2D Sketchup of a possible layout for my studio. I'm working with the door and the toilet being where they are as I don't believe they can be changed. I suppose what I'm asking at the moment is if this looks like a suitable floor plan and then I'll get to work on doing a 3D model.

Thanks guys,

Sam.

[Birdsteeth]

Hi there, anyone got any input? Sorry to be a pain in the arse haha.

[Soundman2020]

Sorry about the delay! Been real busy the last few weeks...

The basic plan looks fine, but that's a strange shaped "kink" between the CR and the toilet.... I'm sure there must be a better way of doing that!

- Stuart -

[Birdsteeth]

Hi Stuart,

Thanks for the reply, glad to hear you're busy! It is a strange kink, I've been looking at it and I'm not sure what else to do... The plan was to have that as a bit of storage with some built-in shelves but it's a bit of a nothing space now that I've done a 3-D model. I'm wondering if there's any other shape that would work for the control room that would knock out the kink.

I've attached some Sketchup drawings and hopefully someone has a brainwave? I can't seem to get the Sketchup file small enough to post, I could put it in Dropbox if anyone was interested?

Thanks,

Sam.

[Birdsteeth]

Oh and the planned wall MSM construction. It looks like the pictures are a 4-leaf system, I just drew it that way to make it easier.

[Birdsteeth]

...And the partition walls between control room and live room.