Upstairs One Room Project Studio

[exit2studios]

I have what is currently a SECOND floor “game room” that I am looking to convert into a single room studio. I’m very aware that “sound-proof” is not a remote possibility, but I would like to contain sound levels as much as possible, within realistic means. The purpose of this post is around isolation, I will tackle tuning the room afterwards in a separate thread.


This is the view from halfway up the stairs. This room is also visible from our front door!



I am dealing with a room approximately 17’ x 15’7” with varying ceiling heights (from 7’6” to 8’11” to 10’4”) and a few odd corners etc.

The windows face into my backyard. The external veneer is brick. Here for aesthetic reasons, I’m pretty much forced to keep the windows. I can potentially replace them if that would be worth the cost.

The “left” side backs up to a closed off portion of the attic. I would like to actually open that up as part of this project and move my “office” into that area, freeing up more room in the studio room. Although small, I could potentially use it as a small office/isolation room, etc. What this means, is I will have access to the other side of it for beefing up, adding sheet rock etc.



The current “entrance” will need doors, and WAF is a big issue here since these can pretty much be seen from the front entry of the house. I understand that a room-in-a-room would probably be my best option here, but I don’t think that is feasible. I have no issues adding mass (i.e. additional drywall, etc), but would prefer not to have to construct additional walls, with the exception of the “entrance” which will need to be closed in.



The side with the nook cutout backs up to my son’s room, with the area going into the hallway being his closet. The additional areas protruding portion in the front and back corners, I can only assume is some sort of load bearing wall and/or area for AC ducts to be routed. It might be a possibility to add some additional drywall to his side of the walls, but my preference would be to leave this untouched for now. I would be intereseted in adding "built-ins" inside the nook which could hopefully be used for additional isolation and/or bass trapping.





The entrance side is a pretty big deal, as it is exposed to most of the house. As it stands now, the creaking of my office chair can be heard throughout the rest of the house. I would be willing to do double wall construction here if it would be worth the effort (not doing that elsewhere). In terms of doors, I’ve seen a few creative double door options with air lock, but not sure if that would pass the wife test and provide enough benefit to fight that battle. Right now, I’m leaning towards exterior French doors with glass windows.

Floors…This room is directly above our living room. As it is right now, any move up here is loudly heard below. My thoughts were to remove the carpet and subfloor, do some insulation between the rafters, and then hear what suggestions come up to beef up/quiet the floors. I’m guessing floating the floors won’t make sense, but could be open to that if it would provide reasonable noise reduction. Ideally I would like to have hard surface floors and lose the carpet altogether but will keep it if I have to minimize noise below. A drum riser to decouple the drums is also an option?

I’ve seen a lot about double and triple leaf construction, using resonant channels, etc. and frankly find it a bit overwhelming. I’m hoping to get some definitive answers on some of this and provide a cost effective solution for this home studio. I realize this could potentially be a big undertaking so I’m looking forward to hearing some advice from all the experts here.

Thanks!

P.S. I’ve also attached a VERY rudimentary sketchup drawing of the room if anyone is interested in playing with it.

[exit2studios]

In researching what technique I should use, I came across the following graphic. This seems to be in conflict with what I've seen elsewhere, as I thought double wall construction was always considered to be superior, followed by staggered stud, and then RC:

[Soundman2020]

This seems to be in conflict with what I've seen elsewhere,

You are not wrong: that is, indeed, the usual hierarchy. But the diagram is not comparing apples with apples: the final one, with the clips (rated STC-62) shows TWO layers of drywall AND ALSO Green Glue, which none of the others show. Put two layers of drywall plus GG on the double-stud wall, and I guarantee that it would out-perform the STC-62 wall. Put the extra layer of drywall plus GG on the staggered stud version, and I bet you get a pretty nice jump there too: Probably to the mid-50s.

Conversely, if you take the second layer of drywall and the GG away from the right hand diagram, then the performance will drop to somewhere in somewhere around staggered stud. IRC-761 says that it would be rated around STC-42 for 13mm drywall, or around STC-46 for 16mm drywall.

It would be nice if that diagram really did compare equivalent situations, but it doesn't, so it is basically meaningless. Can you say "marketing"? It isn't wrong! Just misleading...


- Stuart -

[exit2studios]

This seems to be in conflict with what I've seen elsewhere,

You are not wrong: that is, indeed, the usual hierarchy. But the diagram is not comparing apples with apples: the final one, with the clips (rated STC-62) shows TWO layers of drywall AND ALSO Green Glue, which none of the others show. Put two layers of drywall plus GG on the double-stud wall, and I guarantee that it would out-perform the STC-62 wall. Put the extra layer of drywall plus GG on the staggered stud version, and I bet you get a pretty nice jump there too: Probably to the mid-50s.

Conversely, if you take the second layer of drywall and the GG away from the right hand diagram, then the performance will drop to somewhere in somewhere around staggered stud. IRC-761 says that it would be rated around STC-42 for 13mm drywall, or around STC-46 for 16mm drywall.

It would be nice if that diagram really did compare equivalent situations, but it doesn't, so it is basically meaningless. Can you say "marketing"? It isn't wrong! Just misleading...


- Stuart -

Thanks for the explanation. All of this "marketing" is making my head spin. I'm not sure what approach to take to my project, as double-stud seems like it will add too many complications (i.e. windows, weird angles, etc).

[Soundman2020]

I just realized that I never responded to your original post! Sorry!

First comment: It looks like you have your system set up in about the best possible spot right now, given the strange shape of the room, but the lack of treatment must make it sound ... ummm ... "uncomfortable" is maybe a polite word to use...

The entrance side is a pretty big deal, as it is exposed to most of the house. As it stands now, the creaking of my office chair can be heard throughout the rest of the house. I would be willing to do double wall construction here if it would be worth the effort (not doing that elsewhere).

Unfortunately, just treating one side of a room is not going to improve isolation, since sound will simply take the easiest path out of the room, bypassing the beefed-up wall entirely. Sound is like water: takes the easiest route. If you put something in its way, it will simply detour around it. The only way to stop it, is to dam it up entirely, on all sides. Same with your room: isolating just one side won't make a huge difference (unless that really was the weakest side, in which case your isolation will now be at the level of the next-most-weak side).

The only way to really isolate a room, is to treat all six sides: walls, ceiling, and floor. And treat them to the same level. Including doors, windows, HVAC and electrical.

In terms of doors, I’ve seen a few creative double door options with air lock,

You didn't mention your budget, but a pair of acoustic-rated sliding glass doors is going to take a good chunk out of it, WAF rating aside! Those things are not cheap.

Right now, I’m leaning towards exterior French doors with glass windows.

that might also be a problem, if you are talking about double-doors that meet in the center. Since there is no way of getting a solid, tight joint in the middle with a perfect seal, the amount of isolation you get will not be good. After sliding glass doors, the next most common type of door you see in studios, is a plain old single-leaf door, built very thick, very slid, and with or without glass, as preferred.

My thoughts were to remove the carpet and subfloor, do some insulation between the rafters,

Definitely lose the carpet: it isn't doing you any favors. And taking out the sub-floor might be an idea: it will allow you to see what is going on down below, as well as allowing you to seal everything in sight, which is a major part of isolation. Sealing is critical, and with the floor open you'll be able to access places that would otherwise be impossible to reach. You would also be able to put down a new, much more massive subfloor, which would gain you a couple of dB in isolation. But the real solution might be to take out the ceiling downstairs as well, and re-hang new, thicker drywall from Resilient Channel. That would help a bit too.

I’m guessing floating the floors won’t make sense,

It will work, but will very likely not be cost effective. This thread might help you get a better handle on the implications of floating a floor:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=2&t=8173

A drum riser to decouple the drums is also an option?

Yup!

I’ve seen a lot about double and triple leaf construction, using resonant channels, etc. and frankly find it a bit overwhelming. I’m hoping to get some definitive answers on some of this and provide a cost effective solution for this home studio. I realize this could potentially be a big undertaking so I’m looking forward to hearing some advice from all the experts here.

The most cost-effective way of isolating a drum room is with a fully-decoupled two-leaf MSM or "room in a room" build. And you are tight about it being a big undertaking. Also, "three leaf" is not a good idea, as it provides WORSE isolation in the low end of the spectrum, which is exactly where things like kick drums, snares and toms live. Two-leaf is your only real option.

Perhaps the easiest way of doing this in your case is to take off all of the drywall inside your room, exposing the studs, then beef up all of the drywall on the OTHER side of those studs. In other words, in between the studs you add strips of 5/8" drywall cut to the right size, hold them in place with cleats, and seal around the edges. Then you build your new inner-leaf, which could be either drywall on RC on your existing studs if you don't need a huge amount of isolation, or drywall on a separate frame if you do need more isolation and can also do the floor to the same level.

One word of caution here: This adds a huge amount of mass to the room. You will need a structural engineer to check over your plans, and confirm that what you are doing is both legal and safe.

Hope that helps!


- Stuart -

[Soundman2020]

I'm not sure what approach to take to my project, as double-stud seems like it will add too many complications (i.e. windows, weird angles, etc).

The best way to approach this, is to first define, in real numbers, how much isolation you need. With a sound level meter in had, answer two questions: "How loud are you?" and "How quite do you have to be?". Put actual decibel figures to both of those. The difference between them, also in decibels, is "how much isolation you need."

Based on that, you can then look at a number of documents that show literally hundreds of ways of building walls, floors and ceiling, and how much isolation each method gives you. Then you pick the one that gives you the level you need, and fits your budget and building skills.

So your first priority should be to get out your sound level meter, and start doing some testing, so you can answer those questions. Everything else will kind of fall into place, once you have that done. You can't go choosing methods and materials until you know what you need!


- Stuart -

[exit2studios]

In terms of doors, I’ve seen a few creative double door options with air lock,

You didn't mention your budget, but a pair of acoustic-rated sliding glass doors is going to take a good chunk out of it, WAF rating aside! Those things are not cheap.

Right now, I’m leaning towards exterior French doors with glass windows.

that might also be a problem, if you are talking about double-doors that meet in the center. Since there is no way of getting a solid, tight joint in the middle with a perfect seal, the amount of isolation you get will not be good. After sliding glass doors, the next most common type of door you see in studios, is a plain old single-leaf door, built very thick, very slid, and with or without glass, as preferred.

Perhaps the easiest way of doing this in your case is to take off all of the drywall inside your room, exposing the studs, then beef up all of the drywall on the OTHER side of those studs. In other words, in between the studs you add strips of 5/8" drywall cut to the right size, hold them in place with cleats, and seal around the edges. Then you build your new inner-leaf, which could be either drywall on RC on your existing studs if you don't need a huge amount of isolation, or drywall on a separate frame if you do need more isolation and can also do the floor to the same level.

One word of caution here: This adds a huge amount of mass to the room. You will need a structural engineer to check over your plans, and confirm that what you are doing is both legal and safe.

Hope that helps!


- Stuart -

Thanks!

Budget is undefined here. I guess I would love to say for $x you get 63STC, for $Y you get 58, etc. I'm not sure what a realistic expectation is giving the aesthetic compromises I'm going to be forced to make.

I would like to be able to play acoustic drums and/or electric guitar without "disturbing" house mates and neighbors. Would perhaps like to record vocals at night without being heard outside of the room, etc. Mix at a low/medium level without waking family members.

Acoustic rated doors are definitely out of the picture. Maybe a sliding glass door would fly with the wife. I saw on AVS forum where A guy used french doors (that meet in the middle) for the external side and a sliding glass patio door on the inside. Seemed like a workable solution.

In addition to the door, I have to keep the exterior windows. What options would I have to keep the "water" from going out there?

Our house was built in 1999, so I can't imagine this type of construction being an issue, but with a living room below, would agree that it would be smart to have an engineer take a look.

[exit2studios]

I'm not sure what approach to take to my project, as double-stud seems like it will add too many complications (i.e. windows, weird angles, etc).

The best way to approach this, is to first define, in real numbers, how much isolation you need. With a sound level meter in had, answer two questions: "How loud are you?" and "How quite do you have to be?". Put actual decibel figures to both of those. The difference between them, also in decibels, is "how much isolation you need."

Based on that, you can then look at a number of documents that show literally hundreds of ways of building walls, floors and ceiling, and how much isolation each method gives you. Then you pick the one that gives you the level you need, and fits your budget and building skills.

So your first priority should be to get out your sound level meter, and start doing some testing, so you can answer those questions. Everything else will kind of fall into place, once you have that done. You can't go choosing methods and materials until you know what you need!


- Stuart -

This is a bit of a chicken/egg situation. I don't know what is POSSIBLE, and at what cost, so it's difficult to set the right expectation. I would like a much isolation as I can get within reason. I'm not sure what that means though. I would LOVE to have 60+ isolation. Do I NEED that much...probably not. What would it take to get there? My guess is Room-in-Room, which raises questions to me about what to do with the existing windows. If I were to go "lighter" on the external wall, would that negate everything else? If I choose a less labor/cost intensive method, how much isolation would I be giving up. Just looking for some best guesses to help guide me a bit.

Per my last post, I would like to be able to make noise (drums, guitars, etc) while allowing my family to live at peace. I wouldn't expect them to not hear it, but definitely not loudly, and be able to have normal conversations, over it. My guess is the loudest we're talking about would be a little over 100db, usually much less. As it stands now, there's NO isolation, because everything goes right out the huge opening and down into the lower level of the house. I don't have a sound meter to measure how much it naturally dissipates, but it's not much, since I can pretty much have a conversation with wife while she's anywhere in the house barely raising my voice.

Thanks!

Lance

[Soundman2020]

I don't know what is POSSIBLE, and at what cost, so it's difficult to set the right expectation.

I understand what you are saying, Lance, but you are still guessing here, and that's not a good thing when it comes to studio building. You need to KNOW the actual numbers that apply to your room, by actually measuring them with a sound level meter. You cannot guess them successfully.

The way to do this is not too hard: just play your "worst case" session in your room as it is at present, with all the instruments / musicians / noise sources you can possibly imagine in the loudest possible nightmare session you might ever have. Measure that level, in your room, with a sound level meter. You will get a reading of "My loud level is YYY decibels".

Next, call your local municipality, and ask for a copy of the noise regulations. That will set limits on how much noise you can make, saying that "during the day you cannot be louder than XX1 decibels, and at night you cannot be louder then XX2". So now you also have the number for "My quiet level is ZZ decibels": Subtract the "quiet" level from the "loud" level. Now you have your target number. That's the level of isolation that you NEED in order to stay legal.

Of course, that might not be enough: the "wife & family" factor and the "good neighbor" factor might dictate a different level, and there are ways of determining those too.

So, one way or another, you need to come up with a real-world figure of "I need XX decibels of isolation". You can't get that by guessing: you can only get it by measuring.

With that number in hand, you can then look at documents like IR-761 for walls, and IR-766 for floors, and IRC-22651 for windows, etc., and see what types of construction will get you to that specific number. You can make a list of those types, see what materials are needed for each one, then check out the Home Depot and Lowes web sites to get an idea of prices, complexity, etc. Then you choose the one that best fits your situation.

It's not that complicated, really. It is a simple, structured, logical approach that will lead you to the correct solution. There is no mystery here, and no place for guessing, wondering, assuming or imagining. All of the details have already been worked out and tested for you by scientists, manufacturers, laboratories, studio designers, and many others. All of the information is there: it just takes a bit of work to bring together the things that you need in order to arrive at the answers.

One of the outcomes here is that you might discover that the only methods open to you are too expensive, too heavy, too complicated, too whatever, so then you'll have to relax your goals a bit: decide to only record during the day, for example, never at night. Or only record electronic drums at night, never live drums. Or whatever other factors would make it possible to go with a lower level of isolation.

I would LOVE to have 60+ isolation. Do I NEED that much...probably not.

For live acoustic drums you might well need that much.

What would it take to get there? My guess is Room-in-Room,

For any reasonably high level of isolation, that usually is the only realistic answer, from the point of view of cost/benefit. In the vast majority of cases, that is the lowest cost solution, and the easiest to build.

which raises questions to me about what to do with the existing windows.

They might be fine just as they are. Or might not. It all depends on how much isolation you need... (I seem to be saying that a lot lately! )

If I were to go "lighter" on the external wall, would that negate everything else?

Not if you compensate for that lighter mass by changing the other factors in the equation.

Let me explain: There are well-known equations that govern how walls isolate. It isn't guess work. You just plug in the numbers, and the equations give you the answers. If the answers are not what you want, then you change the numbers until you get what you want. So if one leaf of your wall must be lighter, then the other must be made heavier, or the air gap must be increase, or the insulation must be improved, or any combination of the above.

An isolation wall is a tuned system: it resonates at a certain fixed frequency that is set by a handful of parameters. The only parameters that you can control easily are the amount of mass on each leaf, the size of the gap between the leaves, and the insulation infill. If you have to change one of those, then you can compensate for that by changing the others until you get back to the point where you need to be.

Once again, it isn't all that complicated, and there's no need to guess. The equations exist and are well understood.

If I choose a less labor/cost intensive method, how much isolation would I be giving up.

All of that becomes clear in documents such as IR-761. If you look at the different construction methods, you can see which ones are easier / harder to build, and compare the numbers.

My guess is the loudest we're talking about would be a little over 100db, usually much less.

Acoustic drums usually come in at around 115 dB, played hard. Maybe 110 played reasonably. Add a bass amp and a couple of other loud things to that, and you can be heading for 118 or more.

I wouldn't expect them to not hear it, but definitely not loudly, and be able to have normal conversations, over it.

Normal conversation is typically in the range 65 to 75 dB, give or take.

I don't have a sound meter to measure how much

Then that should be your very first order of business! They are not expensive at all: you can get a decent one for well under US$ 100. Just don't get one of the unknown ultra-cheap ones that you see all over for under $50: get something decent, maybe around $75 or so. As long as it has both A and C weighting, both fast and low response, and ranges that cover up to 120 dB, then that's all you really need. Some meters have other fancy features that are useful, but not necessary.

Your meter will be a very useful investment, and you'll need it regularly both during and after the build.

Without a meter, you won't be able to get anywhere useful with your design, since you'll be stuck in "guessing" mode, and that never works out well for a studio build ...


- Stuart -

[RJHollins]

Just following along ...

and can definitely understand where your questions/wondering are coming from!

Might I just add ...

I hit 'Radio Shack' for my SPL meter. It ran about $40 on sale. It is the 'analogue' style VU meter, with adjustable scaling, A & C weighting, slow/ fast response.
I think the model # is 33-4050.

It is nicely built, and is accurate enough for pro use.

I have it in my control room available to measure/ check monitoring levels. I've seen the exact model used in niteclubs by house engineers. It works.

Now, I wouldn't want to be throwing it around ...

I also have a commercial app on my iPhone. I know these don't get much credit ... but my iPhone is very nice ... and it references well to several SPL meters I've compared it with.
Honestly, I could have used my iPhone to do the needed pre-testing. And even when I shot my room with REW, I just the calibration against all available meters. The Rat Shack model was definitely nice because I could mount it on a tripod stand.

hope this helps.

[exit2studios]

Just following along ...

and can definitely understand where your questions/wondering are coming from!

Might I just add ...

I hit 'Radio Shack' for my SPL meter. It ran about $40 on sale. It is the 'analogue' style VU meter, with adjustable scaling, A & C weighting, slow/ fast response.
I think the model # is 33-4050.

It is nicely built, and is accurate enough for pro use.

I have it in my control room available to measure/ check monitoring levels. I've seen the exact model used in niteclubs by house engineers. It works.

Now, I wouldn't want to be throwing it around ...

I also have a commercial app on my iPhone. I know these don't get much credit ... but my iPhone is very nice ... and it references well to several SPL meters I've compared it with.
Honestly, I could have used my iPhone to do the needed pre-testing. And even when I shot my room with REW, I just the calibration against all available meters. The Rat Shack model was definitely nice because I could mount it on a tripod stand.

hope this helps.

Thanks! I was actually curious about the iphone apps, but I read at loud db levels, the iphone mic can't handle it. I did a little research and ended up getting an ART sound meter that seems to get good reviews. It was a bit more than the Radio Shack (digital version -- couldn't seem to find the analog), but again gets good reviews for the price. It should be here early next week and I will begin doing some testing.

Thank you everyone for the guidance!

[relgycandy]

Thank you for this report.You are not wrong: that is, indeed, the usual hierarchy. But the diagram is not comparing apples with apples: the final one, with the clips (rated STC-62) shows TWO layers of drywall AND ALSO Green Glue, which none of the others show.



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[Elusive Sounds]

Good read. Though this is an older thread, I am currently doing research and exploring the possibilities of a similar build, so this was useful information. How did this project turn out, Exit2studios?

If anyone can point me towards other second story loft builds, please do not hesitate.

Thanks,
Marc