Moderators: Aaronw, kendale, John Sayers
Hmmm.... yeah, I suppose we'll need air. I mean, I can hold my breath for a pretty long time, but... eah, I guess we gotta breathe. So air it is! Air all around! Otherwise, what'll the bass push?xSpace wrote:What are your thoughts on hvac? Maybe just air in general
Hi there... and thanks for the comment! I appreciate it!stuntbutt wrote:What a great space to work with! The experts will have to chime in, but I'd like to throw out the idea that independent ceilings might not be needed in your case. It doesn't seem like 12' of concrete with 48" of soil on top is going to be a flanking problem. I could be way off though.
That ain't the half of it. Everything is "overbuilt." I think he thought the end of the world was coming. People around here call the place "The Mad Max Manhole."Soundman2020 wrote:That one got a good chuckle out of me!I'd have gotten into better shape trying to benchpress the bench!
Sheesh, everybody's a smart-ass...... Yup, it looks like you'll be building yourself a new outer-leaf wall in place of those doors. Any plans on how to do that? Concrete? Brick? Stud wall with siding? Order another container and cut the sides off, then weld them in place?
No more containers, PLEASE! I'm cryin' "UNCLE!" 
I was thinking about masonry construction, filled with sand or cement, to fill the "truck door cavern." Maybe ONE exterior entry airlock, that opens into the main space, with doors large enough to get a piano through, without dismantling it... I love that piano, and I don't wanna bang it up! Steinways are great, but this Boston is really fab. I couldn't ask for anything better, on my budget. (The Boston guys would hate it, I airbrushed "flames" onto it...)Seriously, maybe sand-filled concrete block would be quick and easy, and in keeping with the rest of the construction. Some kind of large, heavy and very solid door. It needs to be large, because you'll be dragging equipment and instruments in and out through it all the time. So make it big enough to fit the larges instrument you might ever want in your room. Grand piano, maybe?
The guy was seriously nuts. Either that, or really cheap! Everything in this build is "surplus," or hand crafted.The skylights aren't really "domes" in the traditional sense. They have a "domed outer" but... underneath, there's a fixed "flat" panel of glass. They're evidently surplus light panels from a library build. Triple paned glass, argon filled, on mech risers, thermostat operated. It looks like he combined a "traditional "commercial skylight" with the inner panels to make a "venting" skylight.Yep, and yep.! The earth is great, the skylights not so great: The domes are plexiglass or something similar, I guess? If so, not much good acoustically. Real glass would be better. Laminate glass would be fantastic. Any chance the obsessive-compulsive previous owner put really thick laminate glass in the skylights? Probably not. What are the "channels" made of, and how long are they?
That's what I meant to say. I got ya. And whaaaaa? More calculations? My head hurts already!The inner leaf is your final dimensions of your room! It doesn't give you "space to build into": it IS your build. All that goes inside your inner leaf is the equipment and you. When your inner leaf is complete, then your room structure is complete, and only needs treatment. The hard surface on your inner-leaf walls is the acoustic surface of your room, and you'll use that when you start calculating your room ratio and geometry.
Okay, "inside/out" is labor intensive, but it's a labor of love,right? Can it be achieved by a DIY'r? Or do I have to start looking for a buyer of my other Harley?Inside-out construction is useful if you have really tight space and need to maximize every last inch. It also reduces construction cost slightly, as you can use the framing structure as part of your acoustic treatment of the room, whereas if you built a normal wall you'd have to make frames, stands or additional support structures for your treatment. Inside-out has advantages, and also disadvantages. One disadvantage: It is harder to build, and harder to seal tightly.
I figured if I learned enough, I'd be able to talk to John or Rod, without sounding like a complete fool. Now, my wife says that's impossible, but...You might even want to consider hiring one of those designers, like John or Rod, to actually design your place for you, if it gets to be too complex for you to design yourself. That would be money well spent. Or you could post your rough outline of what you are thinking, and let the rest of us maybe try to help you whip it into shape.
Whaaa? "Sputter, mumble, snort..." That's what I was gonna do! I've been saving egg cartons and everything! Oh mannnnn!There are many places on the internet that claim to offer such advice, but very few that actually do. This is one of them. Some still waffle about egg crates on the walls and carpet on the ceiling!
I'm still thinking this through, and starting to think that the gear I want to use may also help to define the spaces. Any thoughts to that one?
I thought that sounded logical, and I've been in enough studios to see "themed construction."Absolutely. I don't think I've actually heard any designer say it (as far as I recall), but to me it seems logical to build your control room around your speakers, since they are the things that produce all the sound, and "sound" is what it is all about. So my "philosophy" is to start with your speakers, and build the control room around them, to give them the best possible chance of sounding good.
I have a pair of Klein+Hummel O400 Monitors. They're old, but they still work. And, I have a pretty decent subwoofer (also K+H) I can use. It's "studio surplus," from a pal's, retrofit, but they're supposed to be pretty decent. If I've gotta spend another $10,000 for speakers, I might be in trouble!Do you already have your speakers, or at least have you decided which ones you want? In the case of your live room, I think I'd design that around the type of instruments / genre that you plan to record.
I'd give ya a lot more for the info you've shared, so far. At least a buck! Thanks kindly!That's my US$ 0.02.
I'd thought about that too. I'd have to build dampening panels about 5' x 5' x (adjusted + or - for whatever thickness) and then just hoist them into place, so they could be attached to the walls inside the skylight. Plus, it'd look really cool...xSpace wrote:I don't see the skylights going away. If pressed for it, you could develop closing window plugs to control them and still be able to use them. It may be a simple matter of developing acoustical damping panels that you can install onto the vertical walls of these areas to stop the reverberation effect.
True, true... First, I plan to "build around them." Second, I'm going to have my hands full building the HVAC. Third, "HEY JOHN!!!??! ROD!!! Anybody?" I suspect that some designer is gonna get my dough figuring that one out!!Which brings up another series of issues. A decoupled wall and or ceiling framing has to take these openings into account while also giving some access to air and return air...and electrical.
It's like a foamed coffin in there. I suspect that you're right, and my prob will be adding "live surfaces" to brighten things up.If you have the quiet required already from this build then it may be easier then at first thought.
From your lips, to the "Studio Buildin' Gawd's" ears...With the many treatment applications available to you, you can cure a multitude of sin. Hard panel type reflector/absorption can liven up areas and negate the need for even worrying about mass interior frames.
Yeah, I know, I'm just in over my head, and still trying to take this one ego-blow at a time!Still, electrical and hvac cannot be stressed enough, it will most likely, not fall in place in this unusual build.
xSpace wrote:It just takes time Lexx. You took this long, you can take a little longer
Is there more than one? Oh gawd... I hope not!xSpace wrote:I understand. I live in the dirty deep south myself so I would visit you and help out but I'm working under the impression you are not in the same deep south
Sorry 'bout that! I couldn't help it: I just couldn't contain myself there....Sheesh, everybody's a smart-ass...
OOOPS! OK, I'll shut up now....One suggestion: Don't try to do "double doors" in each leaf in order to get a really wide door. In other words, don't do two doors hinged on opposite sides that meet in the middle. Those are really hard to seal acoustically. Instead, think of a single large door in each leaf. Maybe make it a sliding door, if it would be too big to hang on hinges. But however you do it, make it massive, heavy, and well sealed. "Mass" and "airtight" are two of your new best friends!Maybe ONE exterior entry airlock, that opens into the main space, with doors large enough to get a piano through, without dismantling it...
Sacrilege! You better hope they never find out!(The Boston guys would hate it, I airbrushed "flames" onto it...)
I'd say "neurotic" is putting it politely! The more you talk, the more this sounds like an "end-of-the-world" type survival bunker, designed to survive pretty much anything short of a direct nuclear strike!They're evidently surplus light panels from a library build. Triple paned glass, argon filled, on mech risers, thermostat operated. ... Each unit sits on a motorized riser that lifts the skylight up, ... The skylight channels are concrete boxes, cast in place (inner and outer walls with insulation inside them). They're cast right into the roof surface. ... He did a good albeit neurotic job. ...
!), so low frequency isolation will be out the window (excuse the pun!) but I don't see there is much else you can do about that, short of ripping them out or sealing them up completely. I'm thinking that there is so much mass in there with triple-paned argon filled laminate glass panel, and a five foot air gap, plus another really thick laminate glass pane in the inner-leaf ceiling, that you probably should be OK despite the multi-leaf system. I suspect that your resonant frequency in that system will be low enough that it won't be an issue. But I'll leave that up to the experts to figure it out for certain.Ohhhh, you haven't even STARTED yet with the calculations yet! Your materials shopping list should include a truck load of Aspirin, as the first priority...I got ya. And whaaaaa? More calculations? My head hurts already!
You have ANOTHER one of those monsters? WOW!!!! You sure are a sucker for punishment, aren't you! ???Okay, "inside/out" is labor intensive, but it's a labor of love,right? Can it be achieved by a DIY'r? Or do I have to start looking for a buyer of my other Harley?
Ahhh, The last of the big spenders!I'd give ya a lot more for the info you've shared, so far. At least a buck!
Thanks for the compliment, but please don't ever trust my advice too much, as I'm not an expert! I've just been intensely studying and researching and reading and learning about this whole acoustics and studio build thing for a while, but I'm nowhere near up to speed on it yet. I can maybe waffle on about the basics for a bit (I'm good at waffling, like Ro said! Maybe you noticed?), but when the tough questions come up, I'm not the guy to talk to about that. Listen to the real experts around here, especially if they tell you to not to do something that I suggested!That should work. My guess would be maybe four inches thick should do it. Stuff them full of 703, rockwool, fiberglass, or some such, and put an acoustic cloth cover. Illuminate to taste. (Neon, strobe, laser, LED, whatever.)I'd have to build dampening panels about 5' x 5' x (adjusted + or - for whatever thickness) and then just hoist them into place, so they could be attached to the walls inside the skylight. Plus, it'd look really cool...
I'm thinking that you'll probably be best leaving your floor as plain concrete, if it is in good shape, or maybe glue laminate flooring on top. A live floor is a good thing.It's like a foamed coffin in there. I suspect that you're right, and my prob will be adding "live surfaces" to brighten things up.
Not yet. I've ordered a Sound Meter. And, all I really know at this point is that the room has an STC of 85+...Soundman2020 wrote:Sheesh, everybody's a smart-ass...Please, before we lose containment on this issue...Sorry 'bout that! I couldn't help it: I just couldn't contain myself there....
Man, it's like you're in my head or something. Have you been talking to my therapist?One suggestion: Don't try to do "double doors" in each leaf in order to get a really wide door. In other words, don't do two doors hinged on opposite sides that meet in the middle. Those are really hard to seal acoustically. Instead, think of a single large door in each leaf. Maybe make it a sliding door, if it would be too big to hang on hinges. But however you do it, make it massive, heavy, and well sealed. "Mass" and "airtight" are two of your new best friends!
I'd already decided to do (2) doors, one on each side of the airlock, about 6 feet across, out of heavy wood. Think "carved" Moorish Architecture... you know, like a castle door...
(The Boston guys would hate it, I airbrushed "flames" onto it...)I sent them a pic, they sent me some kind of form letter that smelled like litigation. I gave it to my lawyer...Sacrilege! You better hope they never find out!
It's a rather unusual place. I suspect it's why none of the relatives wanted it. And, apparently no one else, because when I inquired about it, they did everything but offer me their daughter...I'd say "neurotic" is putting it politely! The more you talk, the more this sounds like an "end-of-the-world" type survival bunker, designed to survive pretty much anything short of a direct nuclear strike!
From what you say, I think Brien ("xSpace") has the right idea: Acoustic absorption panels on the shaft walls, to damp resonance in there, and then maybe thick laminate glass directly underneath each shaft, built into your inner-leaf ceiling, to keep the light.
It's a thought. They are kinda necessary, from a lighting standpoint.
I'd thought about possibly installing a fixed glass panel at the base of the opening (in the inner leaf), and sealing the "tops."Since those skylights would then be part of your outer leaf, you'd have to close them permanently, remove the opening mechanism (or at least, disconnect the power), and seal them all around, airtight.
If I have a good set of plans, I can build it. And, getting some help shouldn't be that difficult. Most of the people I know will do anything for cold beer!Seriously, inside-out is not all that hard to do. Its just harder than a normal "right way out" wall...
And I understand that everything has to get sealed, until I have silicone running in my veins... though I prefer it in my wife's... um...er... never mind...
Buy stuff? Oh no... I'm gonna recycle!In other words, you need to plan it very carefully, and think it through, before you ever buy a single stud or nail.
I'd have to build dampening panels about 5' x 5' x (adjusted + or - for whatever thickness) and then just hoist them into place, so they could be attached to the walls inside the skylight. Plus, it'd look really cool...I figured about 4-5 inches of 703 with cloth covers. Maybe I'll have my wife tie-dye them! You know, an homage to Jerry...That should work. My guess would be maybe four inches thick should do it. Stuff them full of 703, rockwool, fiberglass, or some such, and put an acoustic cloth cover. Illuminate to taste. (Neon, strobe, laser, LED, whatever.)
I was waiting for somebody to tell me to build a floating floor... The concrete is in real good shape, as it's been covered with rubber tiles since day one. I wonder if hardwood would work? It'd look cool, and "feel good."I'm thinking that you'll probably be best leaving your floor as plain concrete, if it is in good shape, or maybe glue laminate flooring on top. A live floor is a good thing.
Have you done any acoustic tests in there yet? It might be an idea to do a basic analysis before you get too far ahead, just to see where there might be potential issues.
I was waiting for somebody to tell me to build a floating floor...
Ain't gonna happen in this forum! If someone tells you that you need to float a floor in that room, then he needs to be floated himself. Down the river. Without a boat.Hardwood would be great too. Much more work, of course, but it could look really good if done nicely, and it would be excellent acoustically, too.The concrete is in real good shape, as it's been covered with rubber tiles since day one. I wonder if hardwood would work? It'd look cool, and "feel good."
It was getting the layout roughed out that brought me here in the first place. And I'm not a step closer... I suppose I'm looking at it all wrong. I thought that once I had some idea of how to "lay it out," I'd worry about how to "build" it.Soundman2020 wrote:It sounds like your plan is starting to come together! All you need now is your SketchUp model of the empty space, and some PICTURES of it, so we can get a better idea of what to do next in designing it. Any ideas in mind of the rough layout?