Ongoing studio project - need opinions

Plans and things, layout, style, where do I put my near-fields etc.

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zeb
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Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 10:38 pm
Location: Sweden

Ongoing studio project - need opinions

Post by zeb »

Hi, I've been hangin' around this fantastic forum for a while and am really amazed by all the knowledge in general and the sharing of it in particular. I'm a real amateur in studio design and have read some four or five books and, of coarse, the SAE and some other web sites, prior to getting in to the hard work of designing on my own sound environment, and try to learn as much I can along the way.

I'm about half way thru a studio project, situated in an industrial building w/ concrete floor and drywall (gypsum board) in walls and ceiling.

So far we've made three separated floating floors, 45x95 mm wooden frame, 95 mm rock wool and two layers 22 mm tounge/groove particle board, floated on 40 mm thick plastic/rubber foam (kind of "ground sheet-ish"?). Separated from the floating floors is a hallway wall, w/ two leafs of 13 mm gypsum board isolated w/ 45 mm r/w. The rehearsal room to the left on the (not to scale) floor plan below is finished, walls made of 13 mm g/b and 95 mm r/wl in steel studs and two final 13 mm g/b, ceiling 45 mm r/w and two 13 mm g/b, and already in use with quite satisfying STC results.

Image

Unfortunately there isn't a very high ceiling in this place and the concrete floor is not at all level, so we ended up with a maximum height of 2,38 meters (inside measures) for the studio and somewhat more for the control room

Anyhow, we just started the framing for the studio and due to my claustrofobic partners I think we'll be using the same construction method as for the rehearsal room and have that "disgusting" parallell wall thing :oops:, however, I calculated the modes and don't see any major problem frequencys (but who am I to judge?). The rehearsal room is used by another band anyway, so the studio will also be used for our practising needs. Probably we'll use mobile baffles and also some kind of variable acoustic treatments to make things work also in "non electrified" situations.

The control room will have a large (150x100 cm) window centered in the front end so the soffit for the Genelec 1032A's has to be angled at slightly wider angle, ca 66 deg at mixing position, to keep the sweet spot away from the rear. They will also be mounted rather high, 120-130 cm, to keep the near-fields out of the path, so it has to be tilted 7-8 deg. Would it be a good idea to slant the soffit all the way to the floor to avoid an angle just below the monitors?

I've been playing around trying to get the most out of the control room and so far theese two ideas seem to point out the direction...

Image

Note that this is just some playing-around stuff and not considered final designs.

It also would be nice to be able to perform some mixing when there's a thrash-metal band rehearsing next door, but nothing we take for granted, just hoping for it to happen. Are there any ways of assuring this, to add some extra dB to the STC?

Any thoughts or questions on this design are welcome and I appologise my first post being so long (and full of errors, english is not my first language)
John Sayers
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Post by John Sayers »

No need to appoligise for the English mate - you Swedes never cease to amaze me who well you handle English :)

Zeb - if you draw your rooms to scale it does look somewhat different. Here is your rooms to scale with doors, couch etc at proper scale. That 1.5m window actually is small compared to the room size.

cheers
john
zeb
Posts: 4
Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 10:38 pm
Location: Sweden

Post by zeb »

"you Swedes never cease to amaze me who well you handle English"

Thanks John! I've come up on some really goofy versions of English in this forum (mostly americans :wink: ) so I guess I'm not that bad, however, some of the technical terms might be confusing, since everything has different names in different countries...

Anyhow, if I would draw it to scale it would be something like this, completed with vocal and drum booths:
Image

You got the studio 90 deg wrong, but that's not really important. One thing to note is that the control room measures is the outlines of the floor and the studio is stated with the expected internal dimensions. Sorry if i make things confusing when all I want is to be as specific as possible.

About the window, I still think it is quite large compared to the front of the CR, consider that with framing it will be 160 cm and as the monitor soffit plate will be slanted the plate "expands" towards the ceiling, and I don't want it to cover the upper corners of the window (nor the frame). It's really hard to predict how the different angles in three dimensions will come out in real life, but I'm sure I'll work that out eventually.

Any opinion about keeping the soffit plate slanted all the way to the floor? I understand that it's prefereable having as large area as possible extending the speaker baffle, so I thought that could be one way to go. I might ask Barefoot about that, maybe?

The ceiling in the CR can not be made higher than 2,40 or maybe 2,41 m w/o touching the outer structure, would it be best to get a "peak" at a point about one 3rd from the rear wall and splay towards front/rear, or get max height in the rear and splay forward, or to keep the same height all over and deal with false ceilings/panel absorbers?

About the wall construction, I read in a post ( http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=86 ) that adding an extra leaf between two leafs, creating a second air gap, would lower the STC rating. Having made the walls (inside-out) 2x13 mm gyps. board + 95 mm rock w. + 13 mm g.b. would suggest we have put all efforts to isolate the rehearsal room only to end up with a result some dB lower than if leaving the outer single g.b. out? I just have to quote another user signature here: "I'm beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel, and that really hurts my eyes"...

So, if we from now on use that 3rd layer of g.b. on the inside to make a tripple layered single leaf we should be able to regain the loss and add upp a few more dB to the STC?

Damn, I came up with more questions than I supposed I would, please have patience while I'm learning!

/Johan
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Post by John Sayers »

Yeah - I often find Swedes correcting US english :)

I tried the studio as you measured it but it made the side hallway only 600m wide so I thought it must be the other way around.
About the window, I still think it is quite large compared to the front of the CR, consider that with framing it will be 160 cm and as the monitor soffit plate will be slanted the plate "expands" towards the ceiling, and I don't want it to cover the upper corners of the window (nor the frame). It's really hard to predict how the different angles in three dimensions will come out in real life, but I'm sure I'll work that out eventually.
Yes you can continue the baffle all the way top the floor with the angle continuing as well. Check out this pic of a front wall - that's what your idea will look like I suspect.

Image
The ceiling in the CR can not be made higher than 2,40 or maybe 2,41 m w/o touching the outer structure, would it be best to get a "peak" at a point about one 3rd from the rear wall and splay towards front/rear, or get max height in the rear and splay forward, or to keep the same height all over and deal with false ceilings/panel absorbers?
I'd splay the front to where the side spays meet the side walls and then go flat to the rear with a false ceing below that (at the rear).
So, if we from now on use that 3rd layer of g.b. on the inside to make a tripple layered single leaf we should be able to regain the loss and add upp a few more dB to the STC?
I'd continue as is - you'll be OK IMO.

cheers
john
AVare
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Post by AVare »

The control room will have a large (150x100 cm) window centered in the front end so the soffit for the Genelec 1032A's has to be angled at slightly wider angle, ca 66 deg at mixing position, to keep the sweet spot away from the rear. They will also be mounted rather high, 120-130 cm, to keep the near-fields out of the path, so it has to be tilted 7-8 deg. Would it be a good idea to slant the soffit all the way to the floor to avoid an angle just below the monitors?
I am little confused by your wanting to slant the soffit, the height being exactly the specified height in various standards (EBU document tech 3276, ITU BS.775-1, and AESTD1001.1.01-10). The first and last documents are avalaible on line for free.

A great thread and a great design coming together. Good lusk and congratulations.!
zeb
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Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 10:38 pm
Location: Sweden

Post by zeb »

John, that pic says more than a thousand words, thanks a lot!

About my idea reg the wall setup, it would actually be easier to build that way, so if I did, would it be better or worse than what has been done so far?

AVare, thank you for your compliments (guess John has a lot of cred's in that too!).

The mounting height for the speakers refers to the bottom of the cabinett, which would place the center betw woofer/tweeter about 150-160 cm up and I have no intentions of working in a standing/crouching position :wink: . Anyway, do you have any links to those doc's, they might be of interest?

/Johan
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Post by John Sayers »

I assume you are refering to the wall layout in the studio? (I answered your other question about the skins) Yeah - that looks fine - perhaps you should double the wall between the booth and the drum room if not double the wall for the whole drum booth if you want good separation.

cheers
john
AVare
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Post by AVare »

AVare, thank you for your compliments (guess John has a lot of cred's in that too!).
You are welcome.

To John:

I have been lurking here for several weeks. What you have set up here is fantastic. I don't know where else to write this. Thank you for a great site!
The mounting height for the speakers refers to the bottom of the cabinett, which would place the center betw woofer/tweeter about 150-160 cm up and I have no intentions of working in a standing/crouching position . Anyway, do you have any links to those doc's, they might be of interest?
Thanks for the clarification. The height I was refering to (1.2m) is for the acoustic centre of the speaker. From reading the data sheet on the 1032a at:

http://www.genelec.com/products/1032a/1032a.php

the acoustic centre is 205mm away from the end of the speaker with the tweeter. That is the point that I am referring to.

The EBU document is at, or near, I am just learning how to post on this system,

http://www.ebu.ch/tech_t3276.html

The AES document is at:

http://www.aes.org/technical/documents/ ... n&ie=UTF-8

These documents are based on technical theory modified by practice. What is most important is practice. If John suggests anything different, I would go with what John suggests. He knows real life.

Good luck!
zeb
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Joined: Sun Feb 01, 2004 10:38 pm
Location: Sweden

Post by zeb »

John, after a short discussion with my collegues, we found the design with two booths somewhat limiting, mostly because our priority is to get ourselves a reasonably good rehearsal room, the studio is of course just a tad less important, however, we want all space we can have (did I mention the claustrofobics?). So we decided to go for a vocal booth only and mobile baffles where/whenever needed.

And yes, the booth will have a double wall, at least a staggered stud one. Is it a good idea to make the floor (and walls) in the booth separated as well, like floating a MDF on a 3 mm neoprene sheet?

Here's a studio layout I just made:

Image

- "I assume you are refering to the wall layout in the studio?"

Actually, I was refering to the wall construction again: ..."So, if we from now on use that 3rd layer of g.b. on the inside to make a tripple layered single leaf we should be able to regain the loss and add upp a few more dB to the STC?" ..."if I did, would it be better or worse than what has been done so far?" Sorry if I persist on that issue, but I need to clear this out!

AVare, thanks for the links, stored the docs on my HD! Nice to see we are getting to the same point of reference here (is that a real expression or did I just made it up?).

/Johan
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Post by John Sayers »

Johan - I've told you before to continue as you are and go with the triple skin.

AS far as your design is concerned I'd reverse the way you've angle the left side slots so the wide part in in the corners.

cheers
John
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