Visqueen between walls?

[dymaxian]

Greetings! I have a simple question, but it needs some background...

The studio I plan to build will have (theoretically) isolated structure between all the rooms that will have noise in them. Each room will have it's own floated floor, with the stud walls stood up on that and the ceiling joists set atop these walls, and the whole thing will be built inside a concrete block box with a simple roof on top of it. I'm hoping to make the overall ceiling high enough that I can get above the ceiling and move around a little bit, even if it's just enough to get HVAC and wiring run...

From what I've read, this is about the best type of building I could build without getting into specialized construction techniques. Correct me if I'm wrong... I'll have a contractor build the outer box, and build the inside myself (with help from friends who owe me favors, of course

Anyway, that's not my question. For the isolation walls (between tracking and control, for example) there will be the 2 floated floors, each holding up a 2x4 studwall with batt (blanket) insulation between the studs and either 1 or 2 layers of wallboard on the INSIDE of the rooms only. As long as I don't let the electrican mess it up, this should give me all kinds of isolation. But here, finally, is the question;

To keep the insulation from falling down between the walls (over time, obviously) I was thinking of stapling a vapor barrier to the back-sides of the studs before I tip the walls up. But will that divide the air space into 3 smaller spaces? I don't know if the visqueen would have much of an effect on sound trying to pass thru the wall-system. I suppose I could just poke holes in it intermittently, too...

Am I too worried about this? I could be making a big deal out of nothing...

Thanks in advance for the advice!

Kase
www.minemusic.net

[rod gervais]

I generally just use some plastic strapping to hold it up - staple it on @ 16" centers before standing the walls.

I would have a concern myself about creating pockets of vapor barriers inside of a building, and my concern would be exactly about that - vapor.

Rod

[luvshinerbock]

"...use some plastic strapping to hold it up"

Rod, could you be more specific, please? Do you staple this strapping inside the studs tight agianst the insulation? Where do you get plastic strapping? etc...thanks.

Kase, did you ever play in a Van Halen cover band? Do your parents own a bowling alley-did you have a rehearsal room in that building? If that is you, then we have a mutual friend and we've met many years ago...

[dymaxian]

luvshinerblok;

Nope, no VH tribute for me. I did play drums for a Ronnie James Dio tribute act years ago, but we practiced in a multi-storage complex.

*shrug*

I'll see you around here, anyways...

Kase
www.minemusic.net

[Omega21]

How about finding some wire insulation supports at your local Home Depot equivalent? They are heavy pieces of wire that are a little too long to fit in between studs. Push them in level, the middle bends in toward the fiberglass, and the ends get caught on the inside surface of the studs. Let go & the 'undbending' force in the wire pushes the two ends of the wire into the studs...so they can't fall out. Holds the insulation up nicely.

They're normally used for holding insulation up in between floor joists, but there's no reason they won't work on a wall.

The other way to do it would be to find some wood lath for plaster work, and nail/staple it level accross the studs. Lath is about 1/4" thick and a little over 1" wide... Or use plastic strapping if you can find it...the kind they wrap boxes for shipping with..

Just my $.02
Todd

[knightfly]

Kase, I was looking at concrete block outer walls too, til I found out about ICF walls - easier/quicker to put up (it seems like, anyway) comparable in price, and about 10 dB better sound isolation - tighter air infiltrations specs, earthquake rated, warm, etc - and when you do one more leaf inside, you're up over 70 STC with built-in bass trapping. I'll have to post more when I have my laptop here, probably manana... Steve

[dymaxian]

ICF? Haven't heard of that, but it sounds interesting so far...

Pass on some more info when you get a minute or 3- thanks!

Kase
www.minemusic.net

[rod gervais]

Try this,

I tack it to the back of the studs using rosin coated drywall nails. It works fine.


http://www.uline.com/Browse_Listing_2801.asp


Rod

[knightfly]

AWRIGHT, ROD!! Go, baby - POLYESTER - man, I can hear my BeeGees records scratchin' on the box, just beggin' to be turned loose - Oh, wait, it's the SUITS that were sposed to be polyester, my bad...

Seriously, good link Rod, thanks (OK, back on my meds now, it's alright, honest, put the funny long-sleeved jacket away, I'll be good...)

Kase, here's a link to the walls I'm lookin' at -

http://www.logixicf.com/

And another -

http://www.foldform.com/whybuild.html

And one of the "waffle" types -

http://www.polysteel.com/

Hit google with "insulated concrete forms", there's about 30 different companies offering this idea. Some are "waffle" design, slightly less concrete but worse STC - I'm looking at the Logix, easier to figure TL with a constant thickness for one thing -

I'm figuring on 8" concrete + the poly, then I'll most likely put a stud frame 8-10" inside that with one layer of gypboard for the second leaf, STC is great and "free" panel traps. (which you'll NEED with solid concrete walls)

People are (partially)DIY'ing these, but you do need a concrete pump (about $100 an hour, and you can pour about 4 feet per hour max without breakouts - you would need to find a local concrete guy who's actually USED this method to be safe, but it's faster, (therefore) cheaper than blocks, with more bennies... Steve

[Michael Jones]

I'm confused.
Are we talking about rockwool here?
Seems to me that if you cut your insulation to fit snuggly into the stud cavity, which you'd want to do anyway, there'd be no problem with it falling out.

[knightfly]

Nah, Michael, I'd say it hasta be the "soft stuff" - if you stuff the walls with it, slightly over-filled, it can damp the panels and give within a couple dB of the same results as the "stiff stuff", from things I've seen recently. But even when stuffed fairly tight, there's more of a chance of the (soft) batts sagging over time... Steve

[rod gervais]

Michael,

Regardless of the type - no matter how tight you fit it - it will eventually sag of it's owns weight - Especially given the vibrations that exist in a studio environment - and fixing a problem once everything is closed up (even 5 years down the road) is an awful expensive proposition.

For the few dollars it costs up front to make certain you don't have an issue - it's well worth the investment.

Rod

[knightfly]

Geez, Rod, whatza guy gotta do to get a rise outa you, you switch to decaf or sumpn'?

Gotta go find somebody watz still FUN ta tweek...

I know, I could start tellin' Drummer jokes

[rod gervais]

Geez, Rod, whatza guy gotta do to get a rise outa you, you switch to decaf or sumpn'?

Gotta go find somebody watz still FUN ta tweek...

I know, I could start tellin' Drummer jokes

LMAO.....

Steve you have a better chance of getting my goat if you use a drum machine........

Then strange things begin to happen to me......... i have trouble breathing - i begin to itch.......... howl at the moon.......... and then......... then......... then..................

things start to get weird................

ROd

[knightfly]

Cool, remembered where the Starbucks is huh?

Now, for something COMPLETELY evil - I own 3 or 4 "drum machines" of various complexity - one's never been out of the boxes (Roland V-kit, other things higher priority) and some of them I only hate a LITTLE bit...

One of the many reasons I keep scheming on that 40 x 60 x 16 ICF shell, and all the implications thereof (like once again being able to thrash my acoustic kit within an inch of its hydraulic heads' bursting, without one of the neighbors coming over to either "join the band" or "call the cops"...

Anyway, glad ya found the caffiene source bud, got kinda worried there for a sec -