I have a studio (1200 sq ft- 4 rooms) on the top floor of a small 2 story commercial building. Been there for 10 years with no problems. I’ve always been respectful of the manicure business below me (they’ve been there 4 years). I don’t do live drums until they close at night, use amp simulators when possible and generally don’t monitor very loud (85-90db only when mixing). Obviously, there are times when things do get rather loud during the day but they knew about it when they moved in.
Here’s the problem: they just put up a bookshelf against one wall and placed a boombox on the shelf. The sound from the boombox comes up through the floor into the control room where I track the acoustic instruments that I have to play (all others use the vocal booth). I went down and explained the situation to them, even letting them know that I certainly understand how difficult it is being under a recording studio. They thought I was nuts! Now that they know that I hear their music, they seem to play it even louder. I guess it’s some kind of retribution. Can’t really blame them.
Would a floating floor make that much difference and will I need to build another wall against the wall that the boombox is set on? Seems silly since it’s just a boombox they have but I really like the space and don’t want to leave. I also don’t want to involve the landlord.
Great forum…keep up the good work.
Neighbor downstairs
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knightfly
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You're suffering from Flanking Transmission, which can get kind of wierd to figure out - there's a good chance it's the WALL that's the problem, but the floor could be involved too.
To figure out which is the worst offender, and by how much, you'll need a cheap speaker (4" or 6" size) some wire and connectors, a mic preamp (one in your board should work, although it may not be sensitive enough) and a way to monitor the sound level on a VU meter or LED meter so you can tell which of two signals is louder.
You can glue thin felt on the front edges of the speaker (where it would normally mount to a baffle) - wire the speaker to an XLR connector and connect it to the preamp input; from there on, treat it just as a microphone (it IS) - feed it into whatever you're going to use for a level indicator (main board, all other inputs muted) then use the speaker as a "stethoscope" and check several places on the common wall (that comes up from the Hen Parlor) - tweak the board levels til you can get a reference level so you'll know which points are louder, then move the speaker around on the wall and floor til you find the loudest spot.
This needs to be done while they're playing the boombox, and quickly enough once you start - you want all your checks to be done on the same song, so the relative peaks are the same.
Compare different spots on the wall til you find the loudest, note where the level is, then without changing any settings check several spots on the floor. In both cases, try to find spots where framing IS, and where it ISN'T.
This test sounds like a pain, but it will tell you whether you're getting Flanking more thru the wall, or whether it's traveling up their wall, into your FLOOR, and then re-radiating into your room.
There's a fair chance you'll need to do BOTH wall(s) and floor to control this -
Or, if you've not already expressed your displeasure to the "fair sex" below, you might "give" them a free foam pad for under their boombox "to keep it from vibrating off the shelf"
That might solve the problem by breaking the flanking path between the boombox and the (hard-fastened to the wall) shelf... Steve
To figure out which is the worst offender, and by how much, you'll need a cheap speaker (4" or 6" size) some wire and connectors, a mic preamp (one in your board should work, although it may not be sensitive enough) and a way to monitor the sound level on a VU meter or LED meter so you can tell which of two signals is louder.
You can glue thin felt on the front edges of the speaker (where it would normally mount to a baffle) - wire the speaker to an XLR connector and connect it to the preamp input; from there on, treat it just as a microphone (it IS) - feed it into whatever you're going to use for a level indicator (main board, all other inputs muted) then use the speaker as a "stethoscope" and check several places on the common wall (that comes up from the Hen Parlor) - tweak the board levels til you can get a reference level so you'll know which points are louder, then move the speaker around on the wall and floor til you find the loudest spot.
This needs to be done while they're playing the boombox, and quickly enough once you start - you want all your checks to be done on the same song, so the relative peaks are the same.
Compare different spots on the wall til you find the loudest, note where the level is, then without changing any settings check several spots on the floor. In both cases, try to find spots where framing IS, and where it ISN'T.
This test sounds like a pain, but it will tell you whether you're getting Flanking more thru the wall, or whether it's traveling up their wall, into your FLOOR, and then re-radiating into your room.
There's a fair chance you'll need to do BOTH wall(s) and floor to control this -
Or, if you've not already expressed your displeasure to the "fair sex" below, you might "give" them a free foam pad for under their boombox "to keep it from vibrating off the shelf"
That might solve the problem by breaking the flanking path between the boombox and the (hard-fastened to the wall) shelf... Steve-
Slideman
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Wow…great response, Steve. I think your suspicion of the sound flanking up the wall is correct. I’ll do what you recommended to check.
My original thought was to offer foam but the “fair sex” downstairs doesn’t seem too approachable (at least for now). My speakers are on a mopads on a shelf connected to a wall. I’m sure the sound is flanking down to her space. I’ll put them on stands instead to show her that I’m as concerned about her hearing me as I am about hearing her. If that doesn’t work then it’s time to crack out the ol’ hammer and start some heavy construction. Ah…life in the big city.
Thanks again for such an in depth response. I really appreciate it.
-Marty
My original thought was to offer foam but the “fair sex” downstairs doesn’t seem too approachable (at least for now). My speakers are on a mopads on a shelf connected to a wall. I’m sure the sound is flanking down to her space. I’ll put them on stands instead to show her that I’m as concerned about her hearing me as I am about hearing her. If that doesn’t work then it’s time to crack out the ol’ hammer and start some heavy construction. Ah…life in the big city.
Thanks again for such an in depth response. I really appreciate it.
-Marty
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rod gervais
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Well,
thinking through this - i don't see how you can "not involve the landlord".
I can't see you making a change like this (floating floors - floating walls - etc) without involving design - structural review by an engineer (to assure the loading doesn't exceed the design capabilities of the structure) and a building permit to perform the work.
An electrical permit will be required as well - this due to the fact that you cannot "bury" boxes behind the new wall - and even without seeing your space - if it was wired as a business use - it will have receptacles on all walls within the office space.
Any permit issued would have to include the owner of the propertie's approval (or you acting as owner's representitive - duly appointed).
As far as this goes (for what it's worth) it is very possible that you will never get from A to B if the person downstairs doesn't cooperate.
It is not always possible in an existing building - to create a isolated room due to existing structural design - or that doing so might in fact be even more expensive than building new construction properly (for this purpose) from scratch.
Good luck with this - i do hope you find a solution.
Rod
thinking through this - i don't see how you can "not involve the landlord".
I can't see you making a change like this (floating floors - floating walls - etc) without involving design - structural review by an engineer (to assure the loading doesn't exceed the design capabilities of the structure) and a building permit to perform the work.
An electrical permit will be required as well - this due to the fact that you cannot "bury" boxes behind the new wall - and even without seeing your space - if it was wired as a business use - it will have receptacles on all walls within the office space.
Any permit issued would have to include the owner of the propertie's approval (or you acting as owner's representitive - duly appointed).
As far as this goes (for what it's worth) it is very possible that you will never get from A to B if the person downstairs doesn't cooperate.
It is not always possible in an existing building - to create a isolated room due to existing structural design - or that doing so might in fact be even more expensive than building new construction properly (for this purpose) from scratch.
Good luck with this - i do hope you find a solution.
Rod
Ignore the man behind the curtain........
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knightfly
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As usual, Rod brings a VERY valid point to the table - I've recently been reading Phillip Newell's book on Recording Studio Design, and he specifically states some of the difficulties in putting Recording studios in some types of construction. One of the points he makes is the incredibly high point source loads caused by floating floors - they can be on the order of TONS per point, depending on the type of construction.
Something like that (or ANY floated floor, for that matter) absolutely can NOT be done without engineering studies on the existing building construction, and ignoring this can bring death and destruction (no exaggeration)
Any way you look at it, though, if you're going to do ANYTHING with the existing place you need to know what's happening - my "electronic stethoscope" will at least point you to the worst parts of the building, so you have facts and figures available... Steve
Something like that (or ANY floated floor, for that matter) absolutely can NOT be done without engineering studies on the existing building construction, and ignoring this can bring death and destruction (no exaggeration)
Any way you look at it, though, if you're going to do ANYTHING with the existing place you need to know what's happening - my "electronic stethoscope" will at least point you to the worst parts of the building, so you have facts and figures available... Steve
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cadesignr
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This is hilarious. Seems like anytime I mentioned things like permits, or loading of the floor, or FIRE, or anything of that nature on HR. all I got was a rash of shit. 
Hmmm, I guess some people don't beleive it can happen in a studio or something. TWO reasons that club on the East coast of USA burned up earlier this year. One, o permits. AND the building was modified earlier in the year with NO permits.
Second, OCCUPANCY LOADS. The building was WAAAAAY overloaded with people. THAT IS WHY people were piled in front of the doors. DEAD. Egress, is a VERY dangerous thing in a fire. Especially in studios, especially in studios on upper floors. Double doors, and other studio related materials and products make for dangerous Egress. Even with fire ratings, foam burns. Fabrics burn. Slot absorbers with raw soft wood walls burn like a match. But don't take my word for it. I posted a fire scenario thread on PSW one month before the fire in the club occured. I was boo'ed off the thread. I've posted fire danger threads on HR numerous times. Mostly I got yawns. Some agreed. Some laughed. They won't laugh after a fire.
Another odd thing. When is the last time a fire marshall visited your studio for visual inspection. They used to come in my woodworking shop once every three months in Sacramento. Once every two months in my wifes printing company. How often do they inspect a studio? EVER? How about panic devices on doors? How 'bout about seeing in the dark when a unknown electrical fire shuts down the electric? And because the studio has NO windows, you can't see the damn door to get out. But your crawling on the floor because is airproof for soundproofing but now the vents fill the room with smoke. Someone decides during the construction to save a few bucks on latchsets, and uses ROUND knobs instead of the code specified LEVER type.
Now, because of heat on the other side of the door, you can't grasp the damn knob cause its 400 fucking degrees. BUT, they could MOVE the lever with a shoe if need be. Get my drift? Or ignors fabric specifications for FIRE RETARDANT treated fabrics, and uses NYLON. OR fucking BURLAP of all things. That one kills me. Burns in a flash. Or any number of things that will KILL ya. Or your client. But Nuuuuuuu. Studios don't burn. No one has a fire in a studio. Just like the point load won't bring your studio crashing through on top of the people below. Ha! Muphy loves ya.
Ok....let the FLAMES begin:D
fitZ
Hmmm, I guess some people don't beleive it can happen in a studio or something. TWO reasons that club on the East coast of USA burned up earlier this year. One, o permits. AND the building was modified earlier in the year with NO permits. Second, OCCUPANCY LOADS. The building was WAAAAAY overloaded with people. THAT IS WHY people were piled in front of the doors. DEAD. Egress, is a VERY dangerous thing in a fire. Especially in studios, especially in studios on upper floors. Double doors, and other studio related materials and products make for dangerous Egress. Even with fire ratings, foam burns. Fabrics burn. Slot absorbers with raw soft wood walls burn like a match. But don't take my word for it. I posted a fire scenario thread on PSW one month before the fire in the club occured. I was boo'ed off the thread. I've posted fire danger threads on HR numerous times. Mostly I got yawns. Some agreed. Some laughed. They won't laugh after a fire.
Another odd thing. When is the last time a fire marshall visited your studio for visual inspection. They used to come in my woodworking shop once every three months in Sacramento. Once every two months in my wifes printing company. How often do they inspect a studio? EVER? How about panic devices on doors? How 'bout about seeing in the dark when a unknown electrical fire shuts down the electric? And because the studio has NO windows, you can't see the damn door to get out. But your crawling on the floor because is airproof for soundproofing but now the vents fill the room with smoke. Someone decides during the construction to save a few bucks on latchsets, and uses ROUND knobs instead of the code specified LEVER type.
Now, because of heat on the other side of the door, you can't grasp the damn knob cause its 400 fucking degrees. BUT, they could MOVE the lever with a shoe if need be. Get my drift? Or ignors fabric specifications for FIRE RETARDANT treated fabrics, and uses NYLON. OR fucking BURLAP of all things. That one kills me. Burns in a flash. Or any number of things that will KILL ya. Or your client. But Nuuuuuuu. Studios don't burn. No one has a fire in a studio. Just like the point load won't bring your studio crashing through on top of the people below. Ha! Muphy loves ya.
Ok....let the FLAMES begin:D
fitZ
alright, breaks over , back on your heads......
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knightfly
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Won't get any flames from ME Rick, either literally or figuratively. It took me about 10 YEARS to be able to sleep without pills after seeing the results of a Zirconium chip flash fire - two "things" that used to be human, one unconscious and the other begging to be killed - both died, but it took 3-4 days for one.
If you check back a ways on the boards I visit, you'll find links I've posted to fire retardants, advice against flammables, etc - you're right, this is serious business - DEADLY serious... Steve
If you check back a ways on the boards I visit, you'll find links I've posted to fire retardants, advice against flammables, etc - you're right, this is serious business - DEADLY serious... Steve
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cadesignr
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Steve, I almost died in a smoke filled room. And there wasn't a flame in sight. I was dragged out by my dad.
On another occasion,when I lived in a downstairs apartment. I was taking a shower, when my girlfriend opened the door and yelled "get out! get out". I jumped out of the shower only to find one end of the hall engulfed in flames. The ONLY way out was a bedroom window. IN THE NUDE! But I managed to grab a coat before I broke the window out. The damn locks were frozen on the window. I literally climbed out the window
just as the flames were entering the bedroom. I never knew fire could move that quick. It burned my apartment in 10 minutes. And most of the one above. Thank god for fire alarms. AND windows. This is why I tell people this shit.
Its real.
fitZ
On another occasion,when I lived in a downstairs apartment. I was taking a shower, when my girlfriend opened the door and yelled "get out! get out". I jumped out of the shower only to find one end of the hall engulfed in flames. The ONLY way out was a bedroom window. IN THE NUDE! But I managed to grab a coat before I broke the window out. The damn locks were frozen on the window. I literally climbed out the window
just as the flames were entering the bedroom. I never knew fire could move that quick. It burned my apartment in 10 minutes. And most of the one above. Thank god for fire alarms. AND windows. This is why I tell people this shit.
Its real.
fitZ
alright, breaks over , back on your heads......
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Slideman
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- Location: L.A.
Okay, using your method, Steve, I've come to the conclusion that it's definitely the wall that's the main culprit. The building is on a hill so the front door of my space is a flight of stairs up but the back door is ground level which means that the bottom part of the wall is against earth. Being a typical 30 year old building in So. Cal., there's no insulation in the walls. Would having the wall filled with spray insulation help--making the wall less of a chamber?
On another note...as I said earlier I'm going to take my monitors off of the shelf they're on and mount them on stands (filled with sand and using an isolation plate with mopads). Will this reduce what they hear downstairs? I suspect that the wall the shelves are on is increasing what they hear from me.
Thanks again for your time.
-Marty
On another note...as I said earlier I'm going to take my monitors off of the shelf they're on and mount them on stands (filled with sand and using an isolation plate with mopads). Will this reduce what they hear downstairs? I suspect that the wall the shelves are on is increasing what they hear from me.
Thanks again for your time.
-Marty
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rod gervais
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FitZ,
I won't argue with you on this either.
I always caution people when it comes to life safety as well. (Hell I'm a card carrying member of NFPA).
But burlap isn't a problem if properly treated. I built a world class studio that has almost 100 rolls of burlap installed - every one professionally treated to create a class B flame spread rating.
Expensive - but worth every penny.
I won't argue with you on this either.
I always caution people when it comes to life safety as well. (Hell I'm a card carrying member of NFPA).
But burlap isn't a problem if properly treated. I built a world class studio that has almost 100 rolls of burlap installed - every one professionally treated to create a class B flame spread rating.
Expensive - but worth every penny.
Ignore the man behind the curtain........
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knightfly
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Marty, "as I said earlier I'm going to take my monitors off of the shelf they're on and mount them on stands (filled with sand and using an isolation plate with mopads). Will this reduce what they hear downstairs? I suspect that the wall the shelves are on is increasing what they hear from me." -
Stands and MoPads are cheaper and quicker than having insulation blown in, and just may be all you need. Even if it only helps a little, it should ease the tension between you and the "Unhappy Hair Dryers Club" - Also, although I've not tried the MoPads themselves, I've seen good reports on their effect on speaker performance, and I've used similar DIY pads with good results.
For stands, make sure you get spike feet to minimise transfer to the floor. Then, if that isn't enough, adding insulation should help some - I wouldn't count on it doing a LOT though - maybe just a few dB from damping the structural vibrations, but the structure STILL will be continuous between the areas.
The only way I know of around THAT problem, without introducing OTHER problems, is to remove the wall paneling in your room and install Resilient Channel followed by 3 different thicknesses of wallboard (see my last drawing in the "sticky" thread "Complete Section" for more info)
Good luck... Steve
Stands and MoPads are cheaper and quicker than having insulation blown in, and just may be all you need. Even if it only helps a little, it should ease the tension between you and the "Unhappy Hair Dryers Club" - Also, although I've not tried the MoPads themselves, I've seen good reports on their effect on speaker performance, and I've used similar DIY pads with good results.
For stands, make sure you get spike feet to minimise transfer to the floor. Then, if that isn't enough, adding insulation should help some - I wouldn't count on it doing a LOT though - maybe just a few dB from damping the structural vibrations, but the structure STILL will be continuous between the areas.
The only way I know of around THAT problem, without introducing OTHER problems, is to remove the wall paneling in your room and install Resilient Channel followed by 3 different thicknesses of wallboard (see my last drawing in the "sticky" thread "Complete Section" for more info)
Good luck... Steve
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Slideman
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- Location: L.A.
Thanks, Steve. The wall that my speakers are on is a different wall than where the sound from the boombox comes up from. I was wondering if I insulate that wall (boombox wall), will it keep her sound from being as loud in my space. What type of spray insulation would you recommend? Will the Resilient Channel followed by 3 different thicknesses of wallboard keep her sound out of my space (will it affect the sound coming over to my floor)?
On the other situation (me bothering her) since the stands make contact to the floor (even with feet) will that be better or worse than the shelf on a wall--which of course is connected to the floor, also?
Thanks again for your time. You're giving me all kinds of great ideas.
-Marty
On the other situation (me bothering her) since the stands make contact to the floor (even with feet) will that be better or worse than the shelf on a wall--which of course is connected to the floor, also?
Thanks again for your time. You're giving me all kinds of great ideas.
-Marty
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knightfly
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If you can convince the gals to let you post a helper with a cell phone downstairs, you can localize the worst offender in your area - have the helper listen downstairs while you tap with a (small) hammer GENTLY around on floors (on and off of joist positions) and walls (same plan) - tapping ON framing member locations for both wall and floor should tell you which is the bigger problem.
For total isolation, a full room-in-room is the only thing that will work. You could do Resilient Channel and triple wallboard, only to have the floor vibrations get straight to the wall framing and down, re-radiating into the Hen Parlor. Even you CEILING could be screwing you - if it's hard framed to the walls, it's all one big resonator. IF that's the case, a fully isolated room is all that will work. You need to break the path of vibrations everywhere it's happening to be successful.
The first thing I'd do here is to talk to the gals and make it clear that you're trying to SOLVE the problem, then have a helper/cell phone in your room turn up a mix to LIVE volume levels (probably around 110 dB if you're tracking drums or Marshall stacks there, 100 dB if smaller amps and no drums, and around 90 if you're just mixing (these are all C-weighted, fast response, peaks) Then, be downstairs when this is going on and ask your upstairs helper to turn down til it's not a problem downstairs. Have him measure the NEW SPL upstairs, and the DIFFERENCE is minimum improvement you'll need to "fix it" -
Without doing this, you're fixing something that you don't know which part of is broken, or how BAD it's broken. Not possible... Steve
Oh, for speaker stands you might try a couple of those 16" square "Paving stones" you get at Home DesPot - put 1/2" to 1" foam on the floor, then the "paver", then spike feet of the speaker stand - that should do as much as possible to isolate the speakers from structure...
For total isolation, a full room-in-room is the only thing that will work. You could do Resilient Channel and triple wallboard, only to have the floor vibrations get straight to the wall framing and down, re-radiating into the Hen Parlor. Even you CEILING could be screwing you - if it's hard framed to the walls, it's all one big resonator. IF that's the case, a fully isolated room is all that will work. You need to break the path of vibrations everywhere it's happening to be successful.
The first thing I'd do here is to talk to the gals and make it clear that you're trying to SOLVE the problem, then have a helper/cell phone in your room turn up a mix to LIVE volume levels (probably around 110 dB if you're tracking drums or Marshall stacks there, 100 dB if smaller amps and no drums, and around 90 if you're just mixing (these are all C-weighted, fast response, peaks) Then, be downstairs when this is going on and ask your upstairs helper to turn down til it's not a problem downstairs. Have him measure the NEW SPL upstairs, and the DIFFERENCE is minimum improvement you'll need to "fix it" -
Without doing this, you're fixing something that you don't know which part of is broken, or how BAD it's broken. Not possible... Steve
Oh, for speaker stands you might try a couple of those 16" square "Paving stones" you get at Home DesPot - put 1/2" to 1" foam on the floor, then the "paver", then spike feet of the speaker stand - that should do as much as possible to isolate the speakers from structure...
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Slideman
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- Location: L.A.
I like the idea of the paving stones under the stands. I'm getting the STX5 http://www.stereocilia.com/
Back to the insulation thing...will that deaden the wall chamber to help me not hear her? I'm now less worried about her hearing me than I am about hearing her. Will the insulation make it more or less conductive? Don't want to have it done and find out it's worse. Not looking for total silence in the studio (it's been great for ten years even with a 72" window in the control room). Just tired of hearing her awful 80's music drum-thumping under me. Sorry for obsessing but I'm really learning a lot here.
-Marty
Back to the insulation thing...will that deaden the wall chamber to help me not hear her? I'm now less worried about her hearing me than I am about hearing her. Will the insulation make it more or less conductive? Don't want to have it done and find out it's worse. Not looking for total silence in the studio (it's been great for ten years even with a 72" window in the control room). Just tired of hearing her awful 80's music drum-thumping under me. Sorry for obsessing but I'm really learning a lot here.
-Marty