EXPERIMENTS! EEEERIIIIK, PLeaz DEESAAAART, pag 7 and 8

How to use REW, What is a Bass Trap, a diffuser, the speed of sound, etc.

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timogiodeson
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:56 am
Location: Colorado Beach USA :-)

Post by timogiodeson »

xSpace wrote:..........................
...Not everyone is capable of DIY.......
... I feel a little cheated.....
....this behaviour borders on obsession, ......
...hire a professional......
...get on with the business of living and playing music......
... 'Bama,
What cheated are you talking about? :roll:
After all your compliments I feel this should be my new signature from now on!
"timogiodeson- the obsessed cheater user names switcher desperate illiterate in need for urgent professional help" :horse:
Last edited by timogiodeson on Thu Apr 24, 2008 1:55 am, edited 9 times in total.
timogiodeson
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:56 am
Location: Colorado Beach USA :-)

Post by timogiodeson »

OK :cry: , Let's continue the story....


IMPORTANT QUESTION #1
Can this be a resonance of the last layer of drywall toward the room on the walls?
My bad, I only glue up , no screws and bad caulking was my first wall I ever made... :oops:

Like you see in the images below , .... measurements show this scary figure,
About 60db difference between 70hz and 120hz..!
Acoustic treatment for this measurements was:, Auralex lenrds bass traps floor to ceiling in all 4 corners plus 2'x6'x6" and 2'x2'x6" poly's diffusers all over the room and ceiling
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Last edited by timogiodeson on Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:22 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Eric_Desart
Senior Member
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Post by Eric_Desart »

Timo,

First I can understand Brien a bit, since indeed the whole history feels a bit chaotic to me as well.
If I see these sketches and pictures, I do have the feeling some basics can't be based on advice you got here or read in your books.

I find it difficult to solve like this.
It's not easy to say what the impact of all this different things can be.

As per your sketches you nowhere used mineral wool in the cavities or your walls and ceiling. Is that correct?
Basically you NEVER build double leaf walls like that (when related to sound isolation) without mineral wool or whatever absorption material in them.
Any double leaf wall system will show a resonance (which you described yourself already, since you heard it shift after you glued whatever to it.)
Having no absorption in that cavity enhances the resonances in that wall (that absorption acts as a demper).
Therefore you probably will faster hear differences by adding something as damper (gluing the tiles against these walls). The worse something is the faster you will hear improvements.

You used these tiles wrongly by gluing them and additionally painting them. Caulking them you either did for the visible effect, or you misunderstood entirely why you mounted them there.
If only open cell absorption was involved, I should think you neutralized their functionality in a significant manner, which also means that they can't harm your project, which is the good side of it.
But depending of how you glued them it's possible they can still resonate as a membrane.
These tiles are also not meant to create a sandwich panel between drywall (I wonder where you got that idea) but i think it doesn't matter that much.

In order to judge these Armstrong measurements (that second one glued against the hard backing) I should need to feel and see these boards and know exactly how they were glued and mounted.
For now I have the feel that other factors are involved than just gluing these boards against a rigid heavy backing.
But this doesn't matter that much anymore, since you have what you have, and mounted and painted them as you did.

If you use corner absorption it's certainly useful to use better absorbers than the LENRDs since they are rather small and therefore more limited in the low frequency absorption. This is not mainly related with the fact that they are foam but that they are that small.
I saw that you also experimented with fibreglass or rockwool absorbers? Did they gave the same effect? Normally, if they're OK they should go lower in frequency than the LENRDs.
You don't need to loose the LENRDs since you can use them as cavity filling behind these DIY absorbers stradling the corner.

These polys you made will also show a resonant behavior. Have you tried filling the back with wool?

I find your project a bit overwhelming, and find it hard to analyze all possible influences like this.
Have you calculated room modes to see if you find some relationship with your measurements?

At a certain moment, as Brien said, it can be more efficient to involve a local expert/acoustician, not via the phone for a detail here, then there, but directly on the spot, and let him check this whole thing.
To be honest I get the feel that this is a typical story where trying to do everything yourself wasn't the most cost, time and energy effective approach.
DIY is cost efficient if from the start you follow known, described and proven methods, and limit experiments (which can be fun, useful and educational) to very specific things in a controlled manner.

However if you want to continue then just forget a lot of things and treat your room by adding good bass traps in the corners (enough of them) based on your DIY absorbers and use your LENRDs as cavity filling, hang such absorbers on the reflection points and so on.

To get an idea look at the related layouts (which are all about the same) of different suppliers at their respective sites:
  • Ready Acoustics
  • GIK Acoustics
  • RPG
  • RealTraps
  • Others?
And start from there.

Further:
Your earlier question of drilling or making holes in these walls to let them act as Helmholtz resonators.
Indeed they should act as resonators causing narrow band absorption (even more so since there is no wool in these walls).
Simultaniouly they will significantly diminish the transmission loss of these wall at these very same frequencies.
With the uncertainties involved (also in tuning them) and the fact that you permanently damage your walls it's almost a disaster in the making.
For your own sake: don't.

I can't judge from here if it's sensible trying to fill these wall cavities with blow-in wool or whatever.

Success
Best regards - Eric Desart
My posts are never meant to sell whatever incl. myself, neither direct, nor indirect.
timogiodeson
Posts: 112
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Location: Colorado Beach USA :-)

Post by timogiodeson »

Eric_Desart wrote:Timo,
As per your sketches you nowhere used mineral wool in the cavities or your walls and ceiling. Is that correct?
yes correct
Eric_Desart wrote: These tiles are also not meant to create a sandwich panel between drywall (I wonder where you got that idea) but i think it doesn't matter that much.
Same phone call :lol:
Eric_Desart wrote: In order to judge these Armstrong measurements (that second one glued against the hard backing) I should need to feel and see these boards and know exactly how they were glued and mounted.
I can ship to you if you like...
Eric_Desart wrote: If you use corner absorption it's certainly useful to use better absorbers than the LENRDs since they are rather small and therefore more limited in the low frequency absorption. This is not mainly related with the fact that they are foam but that they are that small.
I saw that you also experimented with fibreglass or rockwool absorbers? Did they gave the same effect? Normally, if they're OK they should go lower in frequency than the LENRDs.
You don't need to loose the LENRDs since you can use them as cavity filling behind these DIY absorbers straddling the corner.
Yes I have experimented a lot with rock wool 8 and 2.5 pounds absorbers, cavity filling etc..
In my room porous absorbers to be effective below 120hz they need to be 4'x8' or larger which is too much space for my room and also too much high freq absorption,
I never experimented with the corner poly or similar corner panel traps suggested by gulfo because you said that it is sketch up magic and not predictable....

So... only one way to stop bass build up below 120hz in a room?
what else?
Eric_Desart wrote: These polys you made will also show a resonant behavior. Have you tried filling the back with wool?
No
Eric_Desart wrote: Have you calculated room modes to see if you find some relationship with your measurements?
yes
Eric_Desart wrote: At a certain moment, as Brien said.....
:D I am an obsessed cheater, user names switcher, desperate illiterate, in need for urgent professional help ...?? :horse:
Last edited by timogiodeson on Mon Apr 21, 2008 5:53 pm, edited 7 times in total.
Eric_Desart
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Post by Eric_Desart »

timogiodeson wrote:
Eric_Desart wrote: At a certain moment, as Brien said.....
DIY is cost efficient if from the start you follow known, described and proven methods, and limit experiments (which can be fun) to very specific things.
no.. brien didn't said that...
Please don't do that.
This was my sentence ......
At a certain moment, as Brien said, it can be more efficient to involve a local expert/acoustician, not via the phone for a detail here, then there, but directly on the spot, and let him check this whole thing.
You knew exactly what I was saying en referring to. I did not quote Brien (there are tags for that), but referred to the spirit of his words checkable only couple of posts higher up.
If you like to puzzle with my words, then to tell that they are incorrect that's up to you.

In fact my post was meant to be constructive. I put things in some perspective as I felt it. From here you have to make decisions how to proceed.

With corner absorption you can go below 120 Hz without needing 4' width (your 4' x 8' description). See absorption curves on the commercial sites I mentioned and at Studiotips in the FAQ for DIY solutions.
Physics doesn't adjust to budgets or space.
You could try membrane like absorbers in the corners, but that's testing and tuning.

Glenn told me once about his corner solution, but back then Glenn told it was a succes but had no measurements if remembering correct.
If I'm wrong Glenn will correct me. I'm always interested in learning.
Best regards - Eric Desart
My posts are never meant to sell whatever incl. myself, neither direct, nor indirect.
BIG8
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Location: Beijing, PRC

Post by BIG8 »

Timo,

Could you have the above frequency responses rescaled in the vertical (dB) and horizontal axis (zoom in (+) ) to show a range of 30-100dB and 20-500Hz, and show the 1/3 octave plot (hit Ctrl+shift+3) and repost it?

Cheers,
Jean
Hovannes ISMIRLIAN

:D cool!
timogiodeson
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Post by timogiodeson »

Eric_Desart wrote: Please don't do that. ...
just a quote mistake Eric...
Last edited by timogiodeson on Mon Apr 21, 2008 4:36 pm, edited 3 times in total.
timogiodeson
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Post by timogiodeson »

BIG8 wrote:Timo,

Could you have the above frequency responses rescaled in the vertical (dB) and horizontal axis (zoom in (+) ) to show a range of 30-100dB and 20-500Hz, and show the 1/3 octave plot (hit Ctrl+shift+3) and repost it?

Cheers,
Jean
thank you Jean, yes I will, I need to find the original files probably still in the garage computer I will post later
thank you
Last edited by timogiodeson on Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
timogiodeson
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Location: Colorado Beach USA :-)

Post by timogiodeson »

here...
timogiodeson
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:56 am
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Post by timogiodeson »

Eric_Desart wrote: With corner absorption you can go below 120 Hz without needing 4' width (your 4' x 8' description). See absorption curves on the commercial sites I mentioned and at Studiotips in the FAQ for DIY solutions.
Physics doesn't adjust to budgets or space.
You could try membrane like absorbers in the corners, but that's testing and tuning.
Glenn told me once about his corner solution, but back then Glenn told it was a succes but had no measurements if remembering correct.
If I'm wrong Glenn will correct me. I'm always interested in learning.
OK but
Nooo..., In my room the size of the porous corner absorber need to be at list 4x8 to be effective in the very low end of the bass drum etc.....(too much space ) !!
Also none of the rooms with the corner absorbers has the 1/2 sec RT60 I'm looking 4...
the rt60 drop down too much which doesn't sound good at all, plus all kind of unpredictable things in the lows end :roll:
basically I prefer the room without treatment...look
Last edited by timogiodeson on Tue Apr 22, 2008 12:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
BIG8
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Post by BIG8 »

Timo,

nice emoticon of you beating a dead horse :lol:

I don't know why you make the RT60 your reason for treatment choice.

Once you get the sound you want, you could always adjust the reflections in the mid/high frequencies.

first get the frequencies right, then worry about the rest, after all this is meanly a rehearsal/practice room, right? :D

Since you have the RT60s for the room with Lendr, corner traps, polys, 8 pounds etc... could you also post their corresponding frequency response curves, 1/3 oct smoothed + same dB /Hz range as above responses?

Cheers,
Jean
Hovannes ISMIRLIAN

:D cool!
timogiodeson
Posts: 112
Joined: Sat Mar 29, 2008 9:56 am
Location: Colorado Beach USA :-)

Post by timogiodeson »

BIG8 wrote:......
Since you have the RT60s for the room with Lendr, corner traps, polys, 8 pounds etc... could you also post their corresponding frequency response curves, 1/3 oct smoothed + same dB /Hz range as above responses?
Cheers,
Jean
Here the measurements. thank you

P.S. I made a mistake in the description of of the last RT60 measurement above , (ligt green line) there was only two large 4x8 corner panels in the room, one corner was untreated , and in the last corner just 2 regular lenrds in the floor.
timogiodeson
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Post by timogiodeson »

some of my experiments ...
I measured various kind of floor to ceiling absorbers in the corner behind the drums,
based on what I feel playing the bass drum and also the measurements I believe the large 4x8 panel is much better for the deep low end of a drum set..compared to the others ...

sub/mic/drums

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timogiodeson
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Post by timogiodeson »

untreated corner
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4 Auralex Lenrds bass traps
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4 Auralex megalenrds
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super large mega in the floor plus 3 lenrds on top
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8 pounds 4" floor to ceiling
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8 pounds 8" floor to ceiling
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8 punds 4" 4x8 floor to ceiling
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2.5 pounds 4" 4x6
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Cabinets :-)
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poly diffusers, without insulation, unsealed
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1 layer 5/8 ceiling tiles
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3 layers of ceiling tiles
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4x8 5/8" ceiling tiles
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various more

8 pounds fsk 2"
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8 pouns fsk 4"
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8 pounds 4" fsk toward the walls
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8 pounds 4" fsk in both sides
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8 pounds 4", with lenrds behind
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8 pounds 8" with lenrds behind
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mike0370
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Post by mike0370 »

Why did you always have the measurement mic pointed at the floor? just curious


As long as you are trying things, id suggest installing a drop acoustical ceiling at 16" below hard ceiling, then do some regular r19 on top of that.Its a technique thats been done everywhere for a long time for 'general' commercial sound dampening.

Then go from there. That should give absorption of about .40 through the octave bands depending on the tiles used. Thats what they do in office buildings anyway.

Polys .. http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=1637

id put them across the corners and use the dimensions shown.

some spot broadband absorption on the walls adjacent to the instruments (4" of fiber or lenrds etc.) .
mike
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