Updated design

Fieryjack · Post by **Fieryjack** » Sat Nov 01, 2003 3:48 am

Hi, John:

Here is my latest design, which is in a barn on our property. I apoligize for the lame graphic, but I suck at this big-time. I used "visio" and this took me about two days. My lame-ness aside, a couple of notes:

1) The "windows" on the left side of the control room are sliding glass doors.

2) The cieling in the live room is 10ft at apex.

3) Cieling in the control room is 8-1/2'. WIDTH of control room (12 ft.) is predetermined by structural beams that run the length of the control room.

Could you please give me your critical feeback and any help??? I am beginning contruction in 2 weeks!!

Thanks!!!

Jeff

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sat Nov 01, 2003 5:26 am

Looks pretty good to me, Jeff - If you have any questions on actual construction techniques here's a good start -

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598

The last pic on the last page is NOT supposed to be an example of good design, it's more of a holding area at the moment -

... Steve

Fieryjack · Post by **Fieryjack** » Tue Nov 04, 2003 12:46 am

Steve, thanks for the comment and very useful link to your post. A couple of construction-related questions for you, below.

John: Can you comment on what kind of acoustic treatment would serve me well in this space and whether or not you think the layout is good? My "live" room will mainly be for acoustic instruments, voices, occasional drums. Booth would be "dead" for voice-overs, etc.

Steve, a couple of construction questions..hopefully I won't get hung up on semantics....

I live on 5 acres and am not worried about noise getting to the outside world. My main concern is keeping the live room and control room separated.

1) Am planning on a double wall between these two rooms (control room, live room) ONLY. Wall facing control room (and all other walls in control room) would have studs 16 on center w/regular insulation, then RC, then 5/8 sheetrock, then 3/8 sheetrock. (note: should the 5/8 sheetrock be "soundstop" instead"). Other walls staggered studs?

2) Wall facing studio would have same stud setup/insulation, NO RC, then 5/8 sheetrock, then 3/8 sheetrock. ALL other walls in live room would have RC on the studs, then the sheetrock layers. (note: should the 5/8 sheetrock be "soundstop" instead")

3) For the control room, the floor would be vapor barrier over concrete. 2x4s sitting upright in Auralex u-boats, insulation between 2x4s (703?), layer of 3/8" plywood, wood flooring (pine).

I don't plan on decoupling Live room floor....

Steve, please help me think this through and point out any missing links. Also, should I be staggering all these studwalls? THanks

Fieryjack · Post by **Fieryjack** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 1:24 am

John/Steve: Here's the latest design, which extends the control room slightly, and re-aligns the Iso booth (drawing isn't perfect because I suck at Visio).

Any comments or critical feedback (John: are you still in the internet cafe)??? I'm finally starting the project on Monday

(shoring up foundation, roofing, demolition).

Steve: can you help w/any construction questions from my last post? Thanks again guys.

Sincerely,
jeff

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 2:55 am

In this case, the 5/8 sheet rock should be fine - I would, however, substitute 1/2" for the 3/8" on ONE leaf of each wall for more variation between leaves. You could also do 16" centers for one frame and 24" centers for its mate - if you do this, put the 5/8 and 1/2 rock on the 16" centered frame, and the RC on the other one. This will give one stiffer leaf for low frequency blocking and one more flexible one for mids/highs.

Staggered studs on separate frames will probably help low freq a bit more than having them straight across from each other, but as far as I know it's not been lab tested, only theory. The idea is that where one panel is flexing the most, the other side would be stiffened by a stud.

I wouldn't spend the extra money on Sound stop when you're using double sliding glass doors - they will be the weakest link so going all out on wall construction is a waste of money. Just make sure you use acoustic rated caulk and seal everything well.

Vapor barrier over concrete - bad idea. If you haven't already seen this, please read it thoroughly -

http://www.buildingscience.com/resource ... ystems.pdf

"2x4s sitting upright in Auralex u-boats, insulation between 2x4s (703?), layer of 3/8" plywood, wood flooring (pine). " - 3/8" plywood? How far apart are your 2x4's? And how thick is the pine flooring?

There are still a few questions to straighten out, be sure and read that thing on basements... Steve

Fieryjack · Post by **Fieryjack** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 7:11 am

Steve, that basement article is great, but leaves me with a couple questions....since my floating floor isn't "underground", does this alleviate potential mold/rot problems? Also, I'm not sure I understood the solution to this in the article (which spoke of walls)....do I use rigid insulation underneath or inside the floor joists? Help...

In response to your questions: the floor joists would be 16 on center with 703 insulation in between (control room only), resting in the Auralex u-boats. The floor would rest on 1/2" plywood, straight (not tongue & groove) pine planks of 1/2" thickness. For cielings, which I am assuming I should do 16 on center, RC, sheetrock (x2?) on all, how do the studs attach to the outside walls? Does it have to be sandwiched with a rubber strip or anything or is it ok since the floor's already taken care of? Sorry if dumb question, again.

Thks, jeff

Post by **John Sayers** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:19 am

Yup - finally out of the cafe

Jeff - you are drawing your internal acoustic treatment walls as main walls. This is how I would do what you are aiming at - note the control room and the studio walls are decoupled.

cheers
john

Fieryjack · Post by **Fieryjack** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 8:30 am

John, glad to hear you got your DSL (or whatever) back....

Thanks for the clarification on wall decoupling. Based on the space I've got, coudl you give me a tip or two on how you'd treat it? For the control room, I thought: "703" absorbers against rear wall w/corner bass traps, correct?

How about the live room (acoustic guitars, voices, small kits) and Iso booth (voice overs)? I'm a little stuck because I konw I'm dealing with small spaces...

p.s. My drawing was meant to indicate a double window (plate glass) between the control room/ISO, thus the add'l doors....

Many thanks for all your help once again....

Jeff

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 11:46 am

Jeff, you're not the only one confused by how to do floors/walls against concrete - I'm still deciphering that article as I get time. The main thing I've sorta locked in is that you do NOT trap moisture against concrete. All you have to do to find out if your slab is "dry" (most are NOT) is to lay a piece of poly sheeting down flat on the floor and come back the next day - if there's no moisture on it or the floor when you pick it up, you're luckier than most.

If there IS moisture present, you need to find a way to allow air to circulate in the cavity. I'm still not clear on all the ways of doing that and still maintaining the physics of sound control.

On flooring, if you don't already have the 1/2" stuff I'd go with a single layer of T&G 1-1/8" plywood instead. Lower resonant frequency, stiffer and stronger with less chance of rattles and buzzes.

I'm not quite clear on your wall stud/ceiling question - basically, your goal for sound control is two separate mass layers with an air space between, completely surrounding your space. Insulation is considered air space. Framing that holds the inner mass layer should have NO hard contact with the framing that holds the outer mass layer. Use of neoprene, compressed fiberglas, sometimes Homasote or Celotex, keeps these two frameworks from hard contact. Here is a basic graphic illustrating the "holy grail" - (just the isolation, not the chaos)... Steve

Post by **John Sayers** » Sat Nov 08, 2003 12:10 pm

nice one steve

cheers
john

Fieryjack · Post by **Fieryjack** » Sun Nov 09, 2003 1:38 pm

Steve...you crack me up!! Scary thing is, your photo actually brings home the simple mass/airspace/mass concept in a way even I can understand

Maybe you should upload that one to the SAE site!!

John: Can I get a little validation from you on whether or you like the design before I start demolishing the interior of my barn on Monday?? (the dumpster is finally here...hooray!!!) If you think it's okay, great. (by the way, the reason the control room is positioned where it is is because there are two support beams that drop to 7-1/2" at the lengths of the control room). I obviously welcome any changes or suggestions!

I can't thank you enough for the insight and help you have both given me during the past several months....

Jeff

Fieryjack · Post by **Fieryjack** » Tue Nov 11, 2003 12:58 pm

John, sorry for all the questions, but here goes:

Since the left and right walls are timber/glass and extremely reflective (AND my room is small) should I NOT be using slots on the rear wall? I'm assuming I should hang cloth covered 703 out a few inches from the rear wall.... thoughts?

How about corner bass traps?

Finally, are you okay with my layout??

Thanks!!!

Jeff

Post by **John Sayers** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 9:38 am

Firstly - I think your layout is fine. Yes - the control room is too short to put slots on the rear wall - make it dead.

what's your ceiling height??

cheers
john

Fieryjack · Post by **Fieryjack** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 1:53 pm

John,

My control room and iso booths have 8' high ceilings. The live room has a 10' high vaulted ceiling at its apex, 7ft high where it hits the 2 long walls.

Post by **John Sayers** » Wed Nov 12, 2003 3:44 pm

That's great - the vaulted ceiling in the live room is an advantage.

For the control room I'd look at angled clouds hung from the ceiling.

cheers
john