here is a pic of how I plan to do my ceiling, is it good???

How thick should my walls be, should I float my floors (and if so, how), why is two leaf mass-air-mass design important, etc.

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tenkas
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2003 1:55 am
Location: Quebec, Canada

here is a pic of how I plan to do my ceiling, is it good???

Post by tenkas »

Hi,


here is the link : http://membres.lycos.fr/tenkas/ceiling.GIF

Let me try direct image:

Image

hehe hope it works

here is a very quick drawing (paint) I did to show you the basic principe of how I will do my ceiling.

I am in the basement so I need good ceiling isolation.

I am on tight budget also hehe

So here it is: I will but fiberglass between the wood studs (if thats how you call them, they support the upper floor) and I will directly mount on the studs SONOPAN (acoustic panel for isolation, weights 30 pounts per sheet). I will the put metal RC on the SONOPAN and the I will put one layer of 5/8 gypsum. Is that good?

Is it better to take some fiberbergalss out to make let say... half space fiberglass half space air? Is it better to put the SONOPAN directly on studs or would it be better to but the RC directly on the studs and then put SONOPAN on RC and then gypse on sonopan?

I have read a lot but I have never seen an answer to this specific question... I hope you guys can help me out :P

Also, I am building a wall, I have the same question, is it better to put some fiberglass and to let some air space? and is it better in a wall to do
STUDS - SONOPAN - RC - GYPSUM or STUDS - RC - SONOPAN - GYPSUM.

It's also a double wall, which side of the wall should have RC and which side soulds have rc?

Thx a LOTTTTtttt!
knightfly
Senior Member
Posts: 6976
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
Location: West Coast, USA

Post by knightfly »

I just answered most of your questions for another member - check out this thread -

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=762

in particular, read my "rules" for wall construction in the thread called "complete section" - They explain using only two leaves and only one "air" space in a sound wall or ceiling.

Is this "sonopan" stuff expensive? How does its price compare to gyp board? You might save yourself some money by just using 2 or 3 layers of different thickness gyp board.

Here are a couple of ways to build ceilings, scroll down to the bottom of the page -

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... 0Chart.htm

Be sure and note that the RC goes directly on the ceiling joists or wall studs - otherwise you get two air gaps, which will make your sound isolation WORSE... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
tenkas
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2003 1:55 am
Location: Quebec, Canada

Post by tenkas »

Sonopan is not very expensive, it'S 15,95$ canadian (4x8) compared to 11.98$ (4x8) gypsum


here is a link

http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl= ... 8%26sa%3DN

(image on the right)


thx a lot for all the info !!!
knightfly
Senior Member
Posts: 6976
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
Location: West Coast, USA

Post by knightfly »

You're welcome - One favor I'd like to ask though; please don't post the same question in more than one area - there are only three of us, and it takes more time to answer things that may have already been covered by one of the other moderators. We do this in our spare time, and anything we can do to get more efficient makes it less of a drain on what time we have. Also, information tends to get scattered through various threads too much as it is, and double-posting only makes that worse.

Not trying to "jump on you" or anything, just a friendly reminder - thanks...

Man, I'm always surprised by costs of materials in different parts of the world but I would have thought that Canada, once you account for the exchange rate, wouldn't be that different from the U.S. - Our local price for 5/8" gypsum wallboard runs about $5.75 a sheet (4x8'), which would translate to about $7.75 Canadian.

What kind of prices do you have for MDF and particle board? If those are cheaper, you might be able to use that as an inner layer (the formaldehyde in the glue they use isn't a good idea for surface layers)

If you read the sections of the USG Construction manual I referred to, it will help you a lot with wall construction - If you have any more questions after reading everything (and you probably will) don't hesitate to ask... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
tenkas
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2003 1:55 am
Location: Quebec, Canada

Post by tenkas »

Hi, ok I will not double post anymore, sorry....


Wait let me go get the sheet with the exact price of gypsum...
This is firecode gypsum 5/8 inch 4x8 it goes for 14.06$ canadian... the sonopan is just 15.97 (same dimension).

DAMN HIGH PRICES!!!! and say that we have tons of resources, 15$ for 5x8 of gypsum is unacceptable!!!!!! My friends work at the store so he can give me like 20 to 30% rebate... sa that's not too bad... but still very expensive!!!!

So for the ceiling my final plans are : (top to bottom) Air cavity, fiberglass (2 to 4 inch, how much would you recommend???), RC on studs, SONOPAN on rc, gypsum on sonopan.

Now the my huge question is : due to my sometime hard times to understand the jargon (my first language is French), what is the REAL BEST way of, in my case, putting the gypsum on top of the sonopan. The sonopan is screwed in the rc, so should I use longer screws to screw the gypsum in the RC or should I screw te gypsum in the sonopan (no contact with rc or studs). And let say I already have a wall with gypse on it, how can I add a layer of sonopan and a layer of gypsum? (sorry for all questions but I really have difficulty understanding sometimes, all I need is a very short answer and I can handle the details by research)

And last, for walls, As I said, it's a double framed wall with steel studs.
The sandwich will be like this (starting from the outside to the inside).
Gypsum - SONOPAN - Rc (?) - metal studs - metal studs (second frame) - rc (?) - Sonopan - Gypsum
On which wall should I put RC??? the interior or exterior wall? (interior beeing the one that receives all high SPL).


Thx a lot, you guys have helped me soo much
tenkas
Posts: 100
Joined: Sun Sep 28, 2003 1:55 am
Location: Quebec, Canada

Post by tenkas »

I forgot something, On the drawing, is it right to fill the floor joist with fiberglass (yellow on my drawing). Should I leave a layer of air between the upper floor and the fiberglass???

and same thing for walls, should fiberglass touch both side of the wall or should (on the double framed wall) I keep an airgap between the 2 wall frames? Thx!
knightfly
Senior Member
Posts: 6976
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
Location: West Coast, USA

Post by knightfly »

Since you're putting your ceiling panels on RC and not directly on wood framing, you can just use longer screws for the second layer. The only thing that should touch the wood framing is the RC, which should be fastened to the joists with 30-35mm Type W, for Wood, screws. Then, you would use 1 1/8" (28mm) Bugle Head (type S, for Steel) 1st Sonopan layer to RC, and then 1 5/8" (41mm) or 1 3/4"(45mm) Bugle Head (type S) for fastening the 2nd gypsum layer to the Sonopan layer.

For insulation, the fluffy fiberglas is nearly as good INSIDE a wall or ceiling as the rigid boards we use for acoustic surface treatment, and it's cheaper and easier to find. You should fill at least half of the cavity depth, and more if you can afford it - just don't PACK it tightly and you'll be fine. Let gravity help here - put the backing UP when doing the ceiling, and let the fluffy side rest on the first layer of paneling (the Sonopan in this case) - this will dampen the movement of the panels without tranferring sound directly, for an improvement in isolation of a few dB (as compared to insulation NOT touching the panels)

If you're going to add two layers of wallboard (any kind) to an existing wall, and the frame for that wall already has wallboard on BOTH sides of the frame, you should NOT put RC between layers of paneling. You would be better off just adding the extra layers directly to the existing layer. However, if the frame you're adding layer to is WOOD, then you need to find a source for Type G, (as in Gypsum) screws. These are also known as Laminating screws, and seem to be pretty hard to find. For the way to do this particular construction, I'll refer you to this thread, where I answered this very question earlier today -

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=5616#5616

Your last question - "And last, for walls, As I said, it's a double framed wall with steel studs.
The sandwich will be like this (starting from the outside to the inside).
Gypsum - SONOPAN - Rc (?) - metal studs - metal studs (second frame) - rc (?) - Sonopan - Gypsum
On which wall should I put RC??? the interior or exterior wall? (interior beeing the one that receives all high SPL). "

Steel stud walls can be either load-bearing (Structural) or non-load bearing - the lighter, 25 gauge non-load bearing studs are flexible enough NOT to need RC for sound control, since the flexible stud keeps one leaf of the wall from having hard physical contact with the other side (leaf) - if you're using heavier steel studs, then RC is a good idea for ONE side only.

(There is more information on walls here - )

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598

If you're using a double frame like that, and if the studs are heavy gauge for load bearing walls, then you should use RC ONLY on the side toward the studio. That way, the flex you get from the RC can help your wallboard act as a bass trap. This will save you having to build quite as many traps for inside the room in order to get the sound right.

If you put insulation in both sides of the double framed wall, with the fuzzy side against the wallboard in each case, it will improve isolation by several dB. This is because the insulation damps the vibration of the panel without directly coupling it to the other side of the wall.

Here is a good explanation of some of the things I've covered here -

http://www.domesticsoundproofing.co.uk/tloss.htm

I think that about covers it for now - you've got some good reading to cover (be sure and download the USG manual, it's in one of the top posts in the Construction forum - it's sometimes hard to follow, but still a very valuable reference, and lots of pictures) - When you get stuck, we can probably help... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
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