Hi, new here.. first post. I have spent a ton of time lurking in the shadows absorbing info from you guys. Well I've reached a point where I need some advice, so here goes...
I'm a professional guitarist. I spot gig, play with two touring bands (not big name), and do radio and tv music work in between. Basically I'm a gun for hire.
The radio and TV stuff is basic, I'm sent raw files that I dump into my system (digi 002) and I record guitars then send back the files and they take it from there. Really easy, and it lets me do my own recording (I'm very lucky).
In two months My wife and myself are starting construction on our dream house. I have designed a control room/ guitar room using ideas here and have learned a ton. What I need to know is if anyone has ever had any experience with an iso box for guitar speaker.
Currently I record guitars in the house I live in, using a spare room as a live room and monitor from my office turned control room. I've been doing this so long I've learned how to get the sound I want... but in a few months I'll be starting all over.
The new house has a huge upstair room that runs the full length of the house. I don't have the need or the finances to make a real iso room... so I'm thinking of making a sealed speaker box with a mic and putting it on the far end of the upstairs room. That way I could monitor the sound without any bleed through the walls (something that I deal with greatly currently).
The questions...
1) Is this worth the trouble sonically? I'd need it to be a silent as possible, but if it doesn't sound good... it's useless.
2) How far can I put this box away from my control room without having any load problems or delays in signal? I'd simply put a 1x12 cabinet inside and a ribbon mic... so I'd need to send a signal from the guitar head and return a signal from the mic.
3) Any unforseen problems I should know about doing this?
Thanks for any info you can give. Please keep in mind I'm a guitarist, not an engineer... so if we get to technical here I'm gonna get lost. LOL -Shannon
Thoughts and ideas on an isolation box.
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barefoot
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Hi Shannon,
My first thought is, do you have a closet you could convert? This could be much easier and even more effective than building a box. And it could still function as a closet, because hanging clothes would aid in sound absorption.
Does this seem like a possibility?
Thomas
My first thought is, do you have a closet you could convert? This could be much easier and even more effective than building a box. And it could still function as a closet, because hanging clothes would aid in sound absorption.
Does this seem like a possibility?
Thomas
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Shannon
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I'm sure I could... My main concern is having it isolated enough that I can monitor w/o any bleed what-so-ever. My thinking was/is that an iso box would be great for those 2am cranked to 10 recording sessions that normally wouldn't happen with my wife trying to sleep. On the other hand, it might be easier to build an iso box of some type then get my wife to give up a closet. 
How far can I put this speaker away from my recorder without having problems in regard to speaker and mic cable length?
How far can I put this speaker away from my recorder without having problems in regard to speaker and mic cable length?
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barefoot
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It's not trivial to build a box that has good isolation and doesn't sound... well... boxy. But it can be done. It's just easier to get a good sound with a closet because it's a much larger volume than any box you could typically build. You might also consider using something like a Scholz Power Soak so you can crank up the amp, but keep the speaker volume relatively low. This will make the box design simpler.
50 ft is reasonable for cable runs. You would just want to use heavy gauge speaker wire, like 10 AWG. And it's usually better to keep the preamp close to the mic, using a long run of line level cable rather than mic cable.
How big can the box be, and what sort of woodworking tools do you have access to?
Thomas
50 ft is reasonable for cable runs. You would just want to use heavy gauge speaker wire, like 10 AWG. And it's usually better to keep the preamp close to the mic, using a long run of line level cable rather than mic cable.
How big can the box be, and what sort of woodworking tools do you have access to?
Thomas
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Shannon
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Thomas, first off let me thank you for letting me pick your brain like this. It is greatly appreciated.
I have access to everything I could possibly need, my dad is a cabinet maker and my neighbor builds homes for a living.
As for space: The second floor of the house will be one open room with an attic space on each side. The attic space (where I intended to keep the iso box) has 12 foot ceilings, is 15 feet wide and will be 50 feet in length. It runs from over my control room the length of the house.
I've been thinking about the closet idea and I wouldn't be against building a more permanent "closet" like room in this space...
but here's another thought: If I took the cabinet I intend to use and isolated it from everything in this attic space- either by actually floating a platform or even suspending it somehow (cables?)- I could make some Gobo's and kind of square off the cabinet. This would allow me to fine tune the area for the tone i'm going for at that time. My only concern would be how loud the cabinet would be throughout the house. I never record on "10". I actually have found that the amps I use tend to compress to much when I push them past 6. But even the moderately cranked amp will sound loud when the wife is trying to sleep.
I guess I'm trying to balance between isolation and good sound.
I have access to everything I could possibly need, my dad is a cabinet maker and my neighbor builds homes for a living.
As for space: The second floor of the house will be one open room with an attic space on each side. The attic space (where I intended to keep the iso box) has 12 foot ceilings, is 15 feet wide and will be 50 feet in length. It runs from over my control room the length of the house.
I've been thinking about the closet idea and I wouldn't be against building a more permanent "closet" like room in this space...
but here's another thought: If I took the cabinet I intend to use and isolated it from everything in this attic space- either by actually floating a platform or even suspending it somehow (cables?)- I could make some Gobo's and kind of square off the cabinet. This would allow me to fine tune the area for the tone i'm going for at that time. My only concern would be how loud the cabinet would be throughout the house. I never record on "10". I actually have found that the amps I use tend to compress to much when I push them past 6. But even the moderately cranked amp will sound loud when the wife is trying to sleep.
I guess I'm trying to balance between isolation and good sound.
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barefoot
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Gobos might help you with the sound going into the microphone, but they're not going to provide much sound isolation. You really need something that is sealed.
Have you tried micing the cabinet in the near field? The true near field is where the distance from the mic to the cone is much smaller than the diameter of the cone. For a 12" speaker, you would mount the mic diaphragm within about one inch of the cone. A small omni is best for this technique. Micing at this distance will completely eliminate the effects of the room or box. You could build a fairly small iso box with little effect on the sound.
Of course, this all depends on whether you can get a good sound in the near field. You'll have to experiment by moving the mic along the cone radius. If it's an open back cabinet, you'll also need a 1st-order high-pass filter to simulate the low frequency roll-off caused by the natural front/rear wave cancellation. This cancellation doesn't occur in the near field, so the unfiltered signal will have much more bass than you're used to.
With near field micing you can probably get away with a 2' square isolation box. And since the box has little effect on the sound, you can experiment with the micing technique first. If you find you can get a good sound, then go ahead and build the box. If not, then you can think about a larger iso booth.
Thomas
Have you tried micing the cabinet in the near field? The true near field is where the distance from the mic to the cone is much smaller than the diameter of the cone. For a 12" speaker, you would mount the mic diaphragm within about one inch of the cone. A small omni is best for this technique. Micing at this distance will completely eliminate the effects of the room or box. You could build a fairly small iso box with little effect on the sound.
Of course, this all depends on whether you can get a good sound in the near field. You'll have to experiment by moving the mic along the cone radius. If it's an open back cabinet, you'll also need a 1st-order high-pass filter to simulate the low frequency roll-off caused by the natural front/rear wave cancellation. This cancellation doesn't occur in the near field, so the unfiltered signal will have much more bass than you're used to.
With near field micing you can probably get away with a 2' square isolation box. And since the box has little effect on the sound, you can experiment with the micing technique first. If you find you can get a good sound, then go ahead and build the box. If not, then you can think about a larger iso booth.
Thomas
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genericperson
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hey, my first post here!
checkout www.demeteramps.com
james demeter is a cool guy. he builds a cabinet exactly like you're talking about. it has a celestion speaker in it, and a mic mount for an sm-57 (or other mic).
his main line of equipment is tube gear like preamps and some guitar amps, but once in a while he gets inspired to build something off the wall like a guitar iso cab or a spring reverb.
he is a quality builder.
checkout www.demeteramps.com
james demeter is a cool guy. he builds a cabinet exactly like you're talking about. it has a celestion speaker in it, and a mic mount for an sm-57 (or other mic).
his main line of equipment is tube gear like preamps and some guitar amps, but once in a while he gets inspired to build something off the wall like a guitar iso cab or a spring reverb.
he is a quality builder.
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preben
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Hi Shannon,
I am in an almost identical situation to you (isn't the Internet great?) and I'm VERY interested in hearing how you're getting on with the iso-box scenario. I haven't got a closet I can convert, so I really need an iso box but ONLY if it delivers the goods sonically. So I'd be very interested to hear exactly how one builds one of these things WITHOUT ending up with a boxy and phasey sound. I only ever close mike (SM57, U87, Sennheiser e606) so I suppose it ought to work... any thoughts are welcome.
I am in an almost identical situation to you (isn't the Internet great?) and I'm VERY interested in hearing how you're getting on with the iso-box scenario. I haven't got a closet I can convert, so I really need an iso box but ONLY if it delivers the goods sonically. So I'd be very interested to hear exactly how one builds one of these things WITHOUT ending up with a boxy and phasey sound. I only ever close mike (SM57, U87, Sennheiser e606) so I suppose it ought to work... any thoughts are welcome.
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barefoot
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Just to clarify, near field micing can be a bit more extreme than close micing. You literally need to remove the grill and mount the mic diaphragm within a couple centimeters of the cone.
And here is another thing to consider. Acoustic feedback into the guitar body can also play an important role in your tone. If you isolate the guitar from the cabinet, it could potentially be very difficult to get the sound you want. It would be a good idea to do the near field micing experiment I mentioned above with the cabinet in a separate room. This way you really simulate the sound of an iso cabinet.
Thomas
And here is another thing to consider. Acoustic feedback into the guitar body can also play an important role in your tone. If you isolate the guitar from the cabinet, it could potentially be very difficult to get the sound you want. It would be a good idea to do the near field micing experiment I mentioned above with the cabinet in a separate room. This way you really simulate the sound of an iso cabinet.
Thomas
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silentheart
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I'm actually in the same situation, and after researching all the ways to get cranked amp tone quietly (amptone.com is a great resource), I concluded that the isolation cabinet route would be better than a power attenuator (THD Hotplate, Yellow Jackets, etc.), because there should be no impact on tone. (You can get pre and power amp distortion, plus speaker distortion if desired.) I purchased the large amplifier enclosure at vocalbooth.com:
http://www.vocalbooth.com/products/ampboxes.html
Unfortunately, I spent a pretty penny and am not too happy. The problem is that I still can't go much past 2 or 3 on the master volume of my 100 watt amp without the bass rattling my windows. This is a serious problem because I live in a second floor apartment. Anyways, I'm writing just to point out the vocalbooth option for those who are interested and to get advice on what I can do to reduce the bass to barely audible levels. The enclosure is a cube 4' on each side. Am I going to have to go the floating box-within-a-box route? I actually have a lot of MDF, 1/4" neoprene sheets, and egg carton foam laying around, so that isn't out of the question. The main issue would be how to construct it in such a way that I can access the cabinet and mics easily. I would appreciate any comments/advice!
http://www.vocalbooth.com/products/ampboxes.html
Unfortunately, I spent a pretty penny and am not too happy. The problem is that I still can't go much past 2 or 3 on the master volume of my 100 watt amp without the bass rattling my windows. This is a serious problem because I live in a second floor apartment. Anyways, I'm writing just to point out the vocalbooth option for those who are interested and to get advice on what I can do to reduce the bass to barely audible levels. The enclosure is a cube 4' on each side. Am I going to have to go the floating box-within-a-box route? I actually have a lot of MDF, 1/4" neoprene sheets, and egg carton foam laying around, so that isn't out of the question. The main issue would be how to construct it in such a way that I can access the cabinet and mics easily. I would appreciate any comments/advice!
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sethmeister
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Shannon, would you mind letting us know how this turns out for you?
I'm greatly interested in your findings, as I'm in the same boat. I have a house but my wife sleeps during the day and works at night so I can't crank my mark IV while she's sleeping
I'm considering either building my own version of the demeter box or trying to insulate a closet...
I'm greatly interested in your findings, as I'm in the same boat. I have a house but my wife sleeps during the day and works at night so I can't crank my mark IV while she's sleeping
I'm considering either building my own version of the demeter box or trying to insulate a closet...
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SliderJeff
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I'm very interested in this as well. Any updates, Shannon?
FYI, here's another guys attempt at the iso cab. His name is Dave Weiner and he is one of the touring guitarists with Steve Vai's band. Great player and really nice guy. He hasn't posted an update to this particular thread yet.. but it's got some nice photos and stuff.
http://daveweiner.com/phpBB2/viewtopic. ... hlight=iso
Regs,
Jeff
FYI, here's another guys attempt at the iso cab. His name is Dave Weiner and he is one of the touring guitarists with Steve Vai's band. Great player and really nice guy. He hasn't posted an update to this particular thread yet.. but it's got some nice photos and stuff.
http://daveweiner.com/phpBB2/viewtopic. ... hlight=iso
Regs,
Jeff