Garage conversion for rehearsing

watt-roy.freeserve.co.uk · Thu Sep 04, 2003 5:59 am

Hi all,

First time on the forum so hi to everyone.
I am looking to convert my single detached garage into a music room to store & play my keyboards & computer, and would also like to use it to rehearse in with my band. My neighbours are very close (approx 6ft away), i do not want to get too serious with the conversion, but can anyone give me a rough idea for the construction. I was thinking of using 1/2" to 5/8" thick chip board as an inner wall but what can i use as sound deadening material in between. I am from the U.K. and we have "Rockwool" which is like a dense / thicker version of standard loft insulation. If i put this in between the chip board and the outer wall, would this give me good sound insulation?. I was also thinking of something similar for the roof, making a false ceiling with room above in the rafters to store some of the stuff from the garage.

Thanks in advance,

Steve

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Thu Sep 04, 2003 9:41 am

"If i put this in between the chip board and the outer wall, would this give me good sound insulation?" -

There's a good chance that this could actually WORSEN the sound isolation for you -

We're a pretty new site, and I've yet to find enough time to assemble a FAQ section, so for now if you could cruise through back threads on wall construction you should get an idea of what DOESN'T work as well as what does.

I'm out of time for now, so I'll check back tomorrow and spend some more time on this - meantime, please feel free to read through some of the back threads to get a feel for things... Steve

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:04 am

OK, Steve, (cool name, BTW)

First, I'll need to know more about your existing construction - what's already there, how it's built, etc - can you describe your existing walls and ceiling in the garage, starting from the outside layer and ending with what you'd be leaning on if you leaned on the inside?

also, how loud do you play and how picky are your 6 foot neighbors?

That should get things rolling for now... Steve

watt-roy.freeserve.co.uk · Fri Sep 05, 2003 4:23 am

Hi Knightfly,

Thanks for the reply, is guess I deserve the “cool name” dig, but after a couple of bottles of wine, when you are asked for a “user name” some of us make mistakes & put in our ISP name!!! (is there a way of amending this?).
Anyway, the garage measures 9ft x 12ft x 7ft high to the rafters, and has a “peaked” roof ^ (don’t know the proper description). The walls are brick construction and just one brick thick, there is an “up & over” metal door at one end where I intend to put a false wall and a standard sized door a the other end leading to my garden. I don’t intend to blast the music out, but would like to be able to play & sing at a reasonable level without worrying about waking the neighbours.
As I said before, I want to know the basic rules of what materials are best to use and the typical construction of walls & ceiling (like the layers of materials to use from the brick wall inwards). I am not an accomplished builder, but I am quite practical and can do most household maintenance so I think this will be a good project for me to take on as long as it is not too technical,

Thanks again for your help,

Steve
(now, …….where’s that bottle gone? )

Mangled · Post by **Mangled** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 6:34 am

Hi Steve,
Just an idea on how I treated the original brick walls of my studio (which complies to your description too):
I used a special type of resilliant channel, 5" thick! Mounted vertically every 24". In between you put foam (NO rockwool or similar). I got this in the Netherlands (www.akoestikon.nl) but there must be something similar in the UK. On top of this go two layers of Fermacell (ultra heavy gypsum board with fibre filling) (http://www.fermacell.co.uk). This way you would create 100% de-coupled walls! I did the same for the ceiling (8" thickness) and created a floating floor on 2" dense foam mat, a fermacell and an OSB top layer.

This could save you a lot of framing/construction work and space.
AND the system gives you an Ra of 67 dB(A)!

I added some pics from the brochure to give you an idea of the principle.
This might start to look like a commercial, but it's not. I'm just being enthousiastic cause this system realy exceeded my expectations.

Erwin

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 10:04 am

Hey Steve, this is STEVE, and that wasn't sarcasm so much as commiseration - screen names are much wierder than that one - (hint) if you've had too much wine to realize that we both have the SAME name, I'll just give up now...

If you want to change your screen name, just make sure you're logged in, then click on Profile, click in the user name box, and change it. You will probably be asked for your password, I hope you saved it somewhere.

I'm running too late to answer questions right now, probably in about 14 hours (protracted 12-hour graveyard shifts)

Later... Steve (cool name, huh?

)

watt-roy.freeserve.co.uk · Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:32 pm

Hi Erwin (mangled),

Thanks very much for the reply. The information you have given me is exactly the kind of thing i was looking for (i.e. straight forward & easy to understand).
I would like to ask a couple of questions, do you or anyone else know where i can get this "Resillient channel" from? or is there a cheap alternative, also do you know what u.k. equivelant there is for the foam (what could i use instead?). Do you think Plaster board sheets will be a good substitute for the "Fermacell (ultra heavy gypsum board with fibre filling)" that you suggested?.
I guess i am just looking for the best, cost effective, alternatives to specialised materials, that i can buy in the U.K.,

Thanks for taking the time to help,

Steve

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:07 am

Hey Steve, Steve here - As to your existing brick walls, are they "rendered" with about 1/2" of mortar, or open brick? Same on both sides of the wall?

what about ceiling? Other than 7' tall, what is there?

When you say you're going to build a false wall, will you remove the garage door and track first?

Before you answer, check these out (more info, some may even be relevant)

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... 0Chart.htm

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... /Walls.htm

Bottom line, we need DETAILS from you - anything and everything about your space, so that we can offer the best solutions for your particular situation. Even better, would be a drawing or two... Steve

Mangled · Post by **Mangled** » Mon Sep 08, 2003 9:21 am

I am having the availability of the akoesticon products in the UK, checked by the dutch supplier. I'll come back on that!
The channels are simple MDF strips incl. holes for screwing and a layer of high density foam glued in between. Could be made on a DIY base maybe. Tricky is the glueing quality though, especially for the ceilings!!
The foam used is some kind of foam rubber (to me it looks like the foam they use to stuff couches or cheap matrasses).
You could probably use regular plasterboard, but I guess you'll sacrifice a certain amount on isolation (mass). Also this Fermacell panel has a much higher strength (A nail into a single sheet should hold up to 30Kg!) Also you don't need to stop the edges with filler cause they are square and glued to each other (no cracking).

Erwin

Mangled · Post by **Mangled** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 1:35 am

The supplier confirmed that the akoestikon materials are not available in the UK. There must be similar systems available but I do not know any...sorry.

Erwin

VSpaceBoy · Post by **VSpaceBoy** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 2:56 am

Man Steve, great info!!

I can see that I have plenty of learning, planning, and more studying before I attempt construction.

Quick question for you. The studio I am planning is in a basement. <I'm sure you have seen some of the designs I am working out in another thread>. The concrete block and unexcavated earth around will stop any sound dead in its tracks for the walls and floor. I have been thinking that for the ceiling I would stick up as much rigid insulation as I can fit inbetween the floor joists, and then attached some sort of black cloth covering it up. I was thinking this would kill the sound reflections back into the room since having a hard surface floor will reflect, I didn't want them bouncing back and forth. Now I'm thinking that it wont help as far as ANY sound deading from the upstairs. I'm sure that two layers of drywall will stop the sound <to some degree> from reaching upstairs, but how will that reflect the sound back into the room??

I remember from reading another thread that acoustic treatment and sound proofing are two seperate animals all together, does this mean that I can have one and not the other? Or does this mean that I have to sound proof first, then add layers of treatment?

Thanks for the great info!!

Space

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 11:09 am

You can have neither, either, or both - both costs more

OK, by that I mean that you could acoustically treat an area so that the sound you make in it sounds good, but you would still hear your neighbor's lawn mower and he would still hear your "Piano Concerto in Hmaj" - so, as long as his lawn was short and he didn't mind your music, you'd both be happy.

Or, you could sound PROOF your room with lots of mass and large air spaces between leaves of walls, do NO ACOUSTIC treatment, and your neighbor would still be happy not hearing you - you, however, would only be happy that your neighbor didn't call the cops - musically, you'd probably sell your piano, cut off your hands, get a set of headphones, and learn to push the buttons on your stereo with your nose...

Or, you could sound PROOF your room, first doing as much as possible to avoid known room problems with the construction, then acoustically treat the room for neutral sound, and only have yourself to blame for the crappy sounding, poorly written Concerto in the Key of H (as in Hell) -

As you can see, the third version is the best for all concerned, except your spare time and your pocketbook...

This -

http://www.domesticsoundproofing.co.uk/tloss.htm

All has to do with sound PROOFing ONLY. These principles apply to ANY boundary of a musical space. The way they are implemented will vary - YOu don't want to walk on gypsum wallboard, so floors will use different materials. The principle, however, is the same.

Scroll down to the bottom of this page -

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... 0Chart.htm

and see some examples of floor/ceiling construction - you could improve on any of these by fitting a couple more layers of gypsum wallboard up between the joists against the lower side of the flooring, then doing everything else as shown. doing that would let you get by with only two layers of wallboard on the Resilient Channel shown across the bottom of the joists. It's not shown, but you could double the thickness of insulation, use some of the newer "high density" type spun glass, and let it rest on the inner bottom layer of wallboard - that would damp the panels some, improving both low and high frequency Transmission Loss. You don't want to stuff the cavities tight, or you'll worsen performance by coupling the two leaves of the sound barrier to each other.

If you're low on ceiling height and less concerned with sound traveling upstairs, there are other ways of compromising - otherwise, you'll get better isolation by taking care of that aspect first, and THEN treating the room for acoustics. That comment does NOT apply to bass trapping; for that you need to plan ahead... Steve

VSpaceBoy · Post by **VSpaceBoy** » Wed Sep 24, 2003 3:23 pm

Makes Sense.
Thanks for the info Steve, I'll be reading up.

Space