Ah, Jeez... I need some advice.

Blindcowboy · Post by **Blindcowboy** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 7:57 am

Alrighty. I am currently in half of my garage. Now, i'm gonna go and build a wall around me.

Here's my post from the homerecording.com.

As with most I have no budget, and I want to build a studio... Right now i'm working out of a corner of my garage. I need half of the garage for well, garage stuff, but I can build in a 12' x 8' room. So, i've drawn one up, and I need ya'lls input. All critics appreciated: Room dimensions, absorbers, funtionality, etc..

My only requirements are that I will need to comfortably fit two people and i'm going to be playing/recording/mixing in the same room.

I designed the drawing in paint, (scale is 1 pixel = 1/4 in.) and I can e-mail the .bmp if anybody wants to tear it up.

Thanks again,

Blind Cowboy...

http://www.geocities.com/chrislafavers/CStudio4.jpg

And, that about says it all...

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 10:06 am

Checkout Johns DIY plans for sidewall resonators. You want those on the walls at mix position to break up those parallel walls.

Also, your moitnors should be at 60 degree angles instead of 45.

Bryan Giles

http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm

Blindcowboy · Post by **Blindcowboy** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 1:35 pm

Thanks...

Actually, the boxes on the side will be slat board resonator, and the box on the back wall will be a rear absorber. I assumed that my drawing illustrated that. I should have labeled it. Also, the room is not built and can be modified to eliminate the parallel walls. Is there a recommended angle that I could narrow the front wall to?

Also, the monitor angle is 45 because that allows me to position them in the corner, have the cones direct signal path before the door, and puts the engineer furthest forward for optimal space. What is the benefit of 60/30 for the monitors?

What i'm concerned about is:

1. Is this drawing and room design sufficient for sound Isolation for a bass drum or bass guitar (suburbs with neighbors about 50 feet away and I like to play at night)?

2. Will the room be suitable for acceptable recording (Home based)?

3. What are the major liabilities of having a small recording space?

Thank you...

Blind Cowboy...

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Fri Sep 05, 2003 10:18 pm

Blindcowboy wrote:Thanks...

Actually, the boxes on the side will be slat board resonator, and the box on the back wall will be a rear absorber. I assumed that my drawing illustrated that. I should have labeled it. Also, the room is not built and can be modified to eliminate the parallel walls. Is there a recommended angle that I could narrow the front wall to?

The absorbers should be angled 6 degrees each. I assume those 2 little boxes are what you are speaking of? They are incorrectly positioned and too smal. The resonator needs to extend from just forward of your mix position to just behind your mix position. From Floor to Ceiling.

If you are building on of Johns DIY boxes, they are about 4' long. That should fill the bill.

Also, the monitor angle is 45 because that allows me to position them in the corner, have the cones direct signal path before the door, and puts the engineer furthest forward for optimal space. What is the benefit of 60/30 for the monitors?

More accurate Stereo Image

What i'm concerned about is:

1. Is this drawing and room design sufficient for sound Isolation for a bass drum or bass guitar (suburbs with neighbors about 50 feet away and I like to play at night)?

Your Staggered stud wall desgin looks fine, Just realize that the slat resonators are built on top of that wall (if I said it clearly)

2. Will the room be suitable for acceptable recording (Home based)?

Make sure you have adequet bass trapping and the angles are correct, you should be just fine. What about the noise from your computer fan? iso Box Maybe. Unless you are using a portable DAW?

3. What are the major liabilities of having a small recording space?

Inaccurate Bass response and your personal comfort.

Finally, I'd make that entire back wall a bass absorber myself.

Bryan Giles

Fieryjack · Post by **Fieryjack** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 1:46 am

Blind Cowboy,

What are you doing about heat (or doesn't it get cold where you live)? Just curious....

Blindcowboy · Post by **Blindcowboy** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 4:51 am

The resonators that I put on the side are 2'x6", where Johns are 4'x8". So, i've extended them to 4'x6" as per Johns DIY specs and eliminating the 2"x1" blocks to save another 2" w/o suffer to the resonators and with the understanding that they are floor to ceiling.

In response to the back wall absorber, I will be storing my speaker cabs in the top right corner, and using the space behind the door for other miscellaneous storage. I am hoping that there is some bass trapping benefit to stacking my cabs in the back corners.

My computer will be in the room. But, it's silent. It's enclosed.

As for angles and such. Are you refering to more than the 60/30 on the monitors and the 6 deg. on the resonators? Or are you refering to the parallel walls? Please consider this drawing the blue print for my new studio. I would like to get it right. If there is an angle that hasn't been addressed, please point it out.

Bass response and comfort: Comfort I don't care about. I'm used to cramped spaces and tight quarters. Bass response is another story. What can I look forward to in this room?

And lastly, HVAC. Actually, i'm in Houston, Texas. Heat is not a problem. Cool, however, is. I've got space heaters for the few times when the needle dips below 45 degrees. So, I don't care much about that. However, i'm tying in the AC system of my house to the top of the room. It will go through a diffuser box, and have it's own seperate vent control so that I can cut it off when not in use.

The revised drawing is based on Gile's suggestions. I've got the monitors in two (Green and Blue) locations. Mounted above the control desk and angled towards the engineer will keep my mixing position that I had w/ the 45 degree angle.(Green) Moving the monitors to the side w/ 60 degree will put me in the middle of the room. (Blue) Meaning mix/move/mix/move/etc...

So which is best?

Thank ya'll for all your help and questions. I really, really, do appreciate your time and effort.

Blind Cowboy....

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 5:03 am

Reverse the angle of the resonators.

What you have for Bass trapping is cool. Just if the space was available, use it.

As far as where the monitors place you, remember you want to be inside the sound field with the point of convergence just behind your head when mixing.

And remember it is all equidistant. If you are 4' from the monitors, they need to be 4 feet apart. You are creating an isosceles triangle with your monitors and yourself.

If you could do some corner bas trapping and check out ethans bass traps for your north side wall past the resonators. As much bass trapping as possible for a room this small.

Otherwise, you are off to a good start.

Bryan Giles

stone_eufemia · Post by **stone_eufemia** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 6:13 am

there's no problem angleing (spelling?) your monitors 45 degrees, i've
read john has done it in the past with great results (john call it 90 degrees
cause of the angle both speakers create in relation to the listening position).

also for what is worth, i think could be better on a small room like
yours 'cause as you can see from your own drawings you get more
speaker spread, with the listening position being closer to the front wall so
actually you gain space in the back of the room.

here are som links to john post's:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ?p=339#339

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ?p=342#342

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2586#2586

also here's the link to john's design at music farm:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/Pages/Music_Farm.htm

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 7:33 am

Stone I hate to disagree with you, but I will speak from practical use.

I have a small room I converted. 13x10

I have, in times past, before I learned a more excellent way done the 45 degree thing. When I change the angle of my monitor.. Over 7 years ago, I realized a more detailed stereo image that translated much better than the 45 degree angle image. but then again, that's my Experience

As a dedicated Mixer I have learned through trial/error and obstinance to listen to those who have gone before me.

60 degrees is the way to go. Everything else is a compromise.

Bryan Giles

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:01 am

I'd Like to add this as well..

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... eakers.htm

A Quote from the above page

( As with most techniques in the modern studio in the past 3 decades Tom Hidley was the acoustician who started it.) The angles give what is referred to as a 60 degree monitoring system. Some studios played with 90 degree monitoring which gave a wider image and is an option you may experiment with. I used it at Music Farm Studios and I really liked it as the image was really wide yet the centre was still tight.

The drawback to this (90 degree) monitoring scheme is it can alter (subconciously) the way you pan when mixing. I can play some stuff back in 1996 from the old way and then when i switched to the 60 degree way, you could sense a greater spaciousness in my panning.

But the bottom line is it is up to you.

Bryan Giles

Post by **John Sayers** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:06 am

This is what we are saying I think

cheers
john

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Sat Sep 06, 2003 8:08 am

Leave it to John to make it Pretty.

Bryan Giles

Blindcowboy · Post by **Blindcowboy** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 1:47 pm

Thanks for all of the replys. I think that I will play with the different monitor positions to determine the most workable position for the space. John, you did pretty it up a bit..

Thanks for all of your input.

Blind Cowboy...

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sun Sep 07, 2003 7:12 pm

Hey, BC, one thing nobody's addressed yet is your question about being able to play bass and drums at night - your proposed wall construction won't be very good for sound isolation at lower frequencies, in fact not all that great for midrange either.

You mentioned only one layer of 1/2" drywall per side of staggered studs in your first drawing - while I've not used cellulose insulation, and even though it's been claimed to be pretty good for sound isolation, I doubt if you would get more than maybe STC 45 from your proposed wall/door construction, and that's assuming you're SUPER careful about door seals/thresholds. If your ceiling isn't at least that good, the final result could be even worse.

Thing is, STC doesn't mean squat for low frequencies, because STC only takes into account the range from 125 hZ up to 4 kHz. And, walls isolate worse as frequency goes down.

What that means, is that if you're thrashing a drum kit in there you'll be lucky to get 25 dB isolation for kick drum and low toms - same for bass, especially if you use a decent amp and have either a 5 or 6 string bass. (Low B on those is at about 31 hZ, which most so-called 60 dB walls only attenuate by about 28-30 dB. So, if you're putting out low freq at around 105 dB or so, it would still be (for the lows) around 80 dB outside. For neighbor happiness, 60-65 is more like it, especially at night, and that's assuming they sleep with their windows CLOSED.

If you're serious about low freq stuff at night, it will cost more. You would need probably 3 layers of 1/2" drywall outside and two layers of 5/8" inside, really tight seals on both SOLID core doors, a ceiling to match, which would raise not only the STC but also improve LOW frequency isolation even more. That's where you need mass, there's no other way to get it short of being another half mile away from potential "victims"...

Also, your 8 x 12 dimensions will cause modal problems in that room, especially if you're using 8 foot ceilings as well. You said,"Also, the room is not built and can be modified to eliminate the parallel walls. Is there a recommended angle that I could narrow the front wall to? " -

My recommendation here would be (if possible) that you still use your existing outer wall, but that you NARROW the front of the room by a total of 16" , but WIDEN the REAR by at least 12", preferably 16" (if you can afford the extra width and build the room as a symmetrical trapezoid - this would mean that both the front and rear walls (as seen from the mix position) would rotate clockwise by about 7-8 degrees in order to stay symmetrical with the splayed walls. The front soffits would extend clear to the wall, instead of the extra angle shown in John's drawing. You would still do the bass traps where he indicated.

The reasons for this are

1. No parallel walls, except the rear, heavily absorbed one

2. Increased baffle size for the soffits, less "horn" effect. This would widen the "sweet spot" slightly. You would still build the slot resonators, just with less variation in depth due to the changed wall angle. You could even keep most of the angle John has shown, if it widens the Reflection Free Zone. That is definitely worth doing.

3. Breaks up the 2:2:3 ratio of your (still mostly rectangular) room, improving modal response and eliminating flutter echo. You would still need a 703 "cloud" or something for the ceiling. The improved room sound alone would be worth doing this.

4. Gives you more usable "walk-around" space in the rear of the room, without much change in required materials.

That's about all I can think of for now - that 50 feet of distance to neighbors will help, but you'll still need better wall/ceiling construction if you want to play bass/drums at night, whether you change the other stuff or not. The other stuff would make your room sound better, the heavier walls would just keep you on better terms with neighbors and cops... Steve

Blindcowboy · Post by **Blindcowboy** » Wed Sep 10, 2003 1:48 am

Thanks Knightfly,

I was beginning to wonder if the previous suggestions were addressing the isolation factor or not..

Should I change my wall design to double instead of staggered?

I was choosing cellulose because they were claiming the density had better absorption than fiberglass. However, I have yet to hear from anyone that has blown in insulation. And i'm not big on being the first...

Anyways,

Blind Cowboy...