Len Morgan's Studio Build Diary

Post by **sharward** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 3:42 pm

Right. Initially I said fill the whole enchilada with insulation... But since your iso is already so good and the fact that iso between inside building and outside building isn't a critical concern, then I switched gears on you and suggested you only fill the area of the inner wall frames, using the wire to keep it from slipping away. I think we're on the same page now.

Dan Fitzpatrick · Post by **Dan Fitzpatrick** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 5:34 pm

mmmmmmmm .... insulation-filled enchilada .....

len-morgan · Post by **len-morgan** » Wed Oct 12, 2005 9:44 pm

sharward wrote:...I think we're on the same page now.

Actually, we've moved on to page two.

But at least we're both on page two.

len

len-morgan · Post by **len-morgan** » Fri Oct 14, 2005 1:33 am

The city inspector said I could put up the insulation between the studs before the framing inspection. I could have even drywalled one side as long as he can see behind the wall and see the electrical wiring behind the walls. Since I'm only covering one side, that's not an issue.

Now I'm in serious need of advice though about the vapor barrier. Once I've got the walls anchored to the floor, I'm not going to be able to put it on the back side. Which side should it go on (if at all). The walls will be spaced 3 1/2" from the cinder block wall and will have an open back with the insulation between the studs. Since I've already been advised against using the paper faced type because of possible third leaf problems, I'm just going to be using string across the back of the walls to hold up the insulation. The area between the walls and above the ceiling will have "access" to the HVAC air but I don't know how often the air will be changed in some of the nooks and crannies (for example between the walls of the control room and studio room). Will this avoid the problem of a vapor barrier? If I put the vapor barrier on the BACK of the wall (i.e., facing the cinder block) won't that give me a third leaf effect?

I'm getting close on having to make a decision about this so any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks!

len

len-morgan · Post by **len-morgan** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:36 pm

Well, we just keep moving along. The framing is about 3/4 done (1/2 if you count the ceiling joists). I've still got one wall of my drum room and then the control room to frame up. Possibly today we'll be done with that.

In the pictures you can see a beam (2 x 2 x 8 x 20) we are putting up to hold the ceiling joists from the center to the west wall of the main studio room. We had to move one of the big brown posts (the ones that hold up the roof). It seems that the drawing I made of the empty space wasn't very accurate when it came to placement of the poles and when you opened the door to the main room, there was this big pole right in front of the door! I would have had no problem getting around it and into the room but I have several friends of moderate tonage that might have needed mechanical help to get in.

So, we built a new post that goes just outside the door, installed it, built two temporary 2 x 2 x 6 posts to hold the roof up while we cut the old post out and then moved it down. It actually worked rather well. It's a good thing one of us knew what he was doing (i.e., not me).

Today we'll be putting up a beam on the other side of the posts to hold the joists for the center to East wall ceiling. So far we have been able to avoid connecting to any part of the structure except the floor. After that, we'll start framing up the control room and finish the last wall of the drum room.

Ok, here's some pictures...

len-morgan · Post by **len-morgan** » Sun Oct 16, 2005 10:41 pm

And a couple more pictures...

Post by **sharward** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 12:57 am

I hate you!

len-morgan · Post by **len-morgan** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:43 am

What ever for?

len

Post by **sharward** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:56 am

Too much progress -- I'm jealous!

len-morgan · Post by **len-morgan** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 7:14 am

I'd like to take credit for it but you have to remember I have a friend helping me who is not only a master electrician but a carpenter too. And he has loaned me all the power tools he has - I feel like Norm Abrams from the New Yankee Workshop (without the talent of course).

I got the last wall of the drum room built today (by myself!) so I'm down to just the control room. Once we get the electrical boxes in, I should be ready for my first inspection some time this coming week. After that, it's insulation, dry wall and doors. Then the real work of "tuning" the rooms starts!

I'm still trying to find unfaced insulation for the walls. Nobody seems to carry it (or wants to order it for me) anymore. Every thing is faced or they are pushing hard on styrofoam "sound board" (foil faced). When I tell them that closed cell foams are great for temperature but worthless as sound insulators, they just give me this look like I'M the the one that's stupid.

Oh well...

len

Post by **sharward** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 1:56 pm

Aren't you glad you learned reality here before you got started?

Good luck in finding a supplier for your unfaced insulation. I just Google-mapped Big Spring, Texas, and wow -- you're really far from the big cities... Something that undoubtedly is a challenge when it comes to buying building products that aren't the most common.

len-morgan · Post by **len-morgan** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 2:45 pm

sharward wrote: I just Google-mapped Big Spring, Texas, and wow -- you're really far from the big cities... Something that undoubtedly is a challenge when it comes to buying building products that aren't the most common.

I guess it all depends on your point of view and what you're used to. Midland/Odessa are a little over an hour away West (about 200K population between the two) and Lubbock is just under two hours away North. Midland is just a "trip down the street" when you look at going anywhere else in Texas from Big Spring. We had to make several trips to Dallas to get my wife and step daughters' green cards - a 10 hour round trip. It's just the price you pay for living in the boonies. Of course, when it comes to building supplies, the fact that I drive a Taurus instead of a pickup truck doesn't help. And with gas at 2.69/gallon even the "short" drive to Midland is more and more expensive.

With the Internet, I can get just about anything I need as fast as you can. Building supplies (like lumber, drywall, and insulation) are a different story. I can find distributors for such things in the big cities, but as an example, Home Depot in Midland wants $100 to deliver to Big Spring no matter how much you are buying (and that was before gas prices went up).

I've read several other posts on the subject of faced vs unfaced insulation IN WALLS and the responses are mixed. In panel absorbers and such, unfaced seems to be the way to go but in those you have something to confine the insulation in the frame. With my open back walls, I don't have anything to hold it up (asside from putting up the zig zag string on the back side). I guess I could always get faced material, put it up with the paper side facing the inside of the room (right up against the drywall) and trying to remove the paper except for an inch or two at the top to hold it up. I wish someone would chime in and tell me if attaching the paper facing to the back of the walls (still leaving the 3 1/2 in gap between the back of the stud wall and the cinder block wall will SIGNIFICANTLY degrade the value of the insulation or cause a problem.

On the upside of living in the boonies: No competition! If you look at that map of Big Spring, I haven't got any competition to at least Pecos on the West (150 miles), San Angelo to the South (90 miles), Abilene to the East (110 miles), and Lubbock (110 miles) to the North. That's close to 500K people who have nothing but converted sheds and garages to record in (no offense to those who build THEIR OWN studios in sheds or garages - I'm talking about comercial ventures in purpose-built studios). I had originally thought about adding on to my house to build a (smaller) studio but it didn't not seem professional to have strangers trapesing (sp?) through my house at all hours of the day and night. Not to mention my wife not liking that plan. I should be able to make a commercial go at this if I can get any kind of decent sound out of it. This way I'm getting a more professional looking BUSINESS and it's much bigger than I could have built on my house. I should have room for a few guitars/bass', drums, keyboards, and singers all recording at the same time without feeling to confined. At least that's how I sold it to my wife.

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 8:23 pm

Len, sorry I didn't get to this earlier; on the vapor barrier thing, if the wall isn't an outside wall you don't want a vapor barrier at all; otherwise, for outside walls the vapor barrier goes toward the side of the wall that's warm more of the time; so if you heat for more days than you air condition, the barrier goes to the inside. If you use A/C more than you use heat, the barrier goes to the OUTSIDE.

Tyvek is NOT a vapor barrier, it's an AIR barrier and will let vapor move through the wall; poly sheeting IS a vapor barrier, as are heavy oil-base paints, plasticized wood-grain paneling, foil, EPS insulation. Paper is a variable permeability vapor barrier, so isn't quite as critical as the other types as far as moisture control is concerned; but you're right, it WILL mess up sound isolation in some cases, and if used in a wall AT ALL it needs to be against one or the other masses to avoid multi-leaf properties.

Of all the above-mentioned barriers, only Tyvek or building felt should be used in a wall where there is another vapor barrier - vapor is smaller and more invasive than air, so an air barrier like Tyvek will still let a wall breathe. You do NOT want two of the less permeable barriers such as poly in ANY wall.

HTH... STeve

len-morgan · Post by **len-morgan** » Mon Oct 17, 2005 10:47 pm

Thanks for the reply, Steve!

You've confused me a little. I THINK you are saying:

1) As long as we're talking about interior partition walls (not the cinder block wall), I don't need a vapor barrier on either side (of the partition wall).

2) I CAN use paper faced insulation in my partition walls but since it won't reach to the cinder block (because the air gap), the paper side should be facing INTO the room and the dry wall applied right over the top. Is there anything I should do before attach the 1st layer of dry wall like spray adhesive or something or just set the staples such that the paper/fiberglass "puffs" a little into the room and the dry wall will push against it (and back into the wall cavity).

Thanks for any help. I'm at this stage now.

len

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Tue Oct 18, 2005 6:18 am

Right on both counts; first, paper won't be a BIG effect on multi-leaf problems, and by just stretching the paper snug before stapling it will stay in close contact with your wallboard.

As long as you only have ONE material acting as a vapor barrier on an INSIDE PARTITION wall, it should have no bad effect since both sides of the wall should be at the same humiditiy/temperature.

Basically, what you just posted is fine... Steve