Hey knightfly, you answered my question on the homerecording forum..thanks alot for the recomdation to this site....my walls are made of cinderblock which is hollow cement....the garage is attached to my basement...there is a door leading into the garage fomr the basement....the house sits on two plots of land.so the neighbors arent that close....and the garage door is going to still stand on the outside....now i dont want to take down the garage door...im want to leave it standing and build a solid wall behind it...make sense?...thanks for everything again and please respond asap thanks....
lou
Need Some Help With Construction Knightfly...
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XlouX
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knightfly
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I'm not quite sure I found a question - regardless, I'd need some idea of budget, how loud you intend to get in the studio, whether you need to keep others inside the house from hearing, etc - also, a floor plan drawing wouldn't hurt, gives us a reference when discussing different parts of the construction.
Have you checked out the REFERENCE section near the top of the page yet? there's a lot of material there... Steve
Have you checked out the REFERENCE section near the top of the page yet? there's a lot of material there... Steve
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XlouX
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Sorry guys, as you can tell im REALLY new to this.....id say our budget is about 5,000 for the construction of the studio. Yes we do not want people in the house to hear whats going on, and we intend to be loud ...we wish to record everything but mainly focused on live bands...i cannot give u a floor plan cause i dont have a program to draw it up...if there is any free program to dl that u know of please let me know and i will get u a floor plan asap....thanks for your patience
later
lou
later
lou
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Aaronw
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Paul Woodlock
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Re: Need Some Help With Construction Knightfly...
GreetingsXlouX wrote:Hey knightfly, you answered my question on the homerecording forum..thanks alot for the recomdation to this site....my walls are made of cinderblock which is hollow cement....the garage is attached to my basement...there is a door leading into the garage fomr the basement....the house sits on two plots of land.so the neighbors arent that close....and the garage door is going to still stand on the outside....now i dont want to take down the garage door...im want to leave it standing and build a solid wall behind it...make sense?...thanks for everything again and please respond asap thanks....
lou
I had the same problem with my Studio Build. i.e I had garage doors I wanted to leave for aesthetic reasons, and wanted to build a brick wall behind them.
The problem is you create a mass-spring-mass system when doing this, and as garage doors are usually relatively light comparewd to the wall behind them, they run the risk of resonating.
I had quite a thread running on the studiotips forum discussing this. It's here http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=494
Eventually, and unusually, the plan was to get the mass-spring-mass resonance as HIGH as possible.
See my Paul's Studio Build Diary for the actual construction.
We got there in the end
Paul
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dk01
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Paul your studio build diary is fantastic...
Am I in better shape since I have a WOOD garage door vs. say steel or metal garage doors like you were contending with?
Based on the garage door being wood my plan was to treat it like a separate leaf. So -
1. Make sure the bottom, top and sides are sealed/gasketed and are absolutely airtight.
2. Create a wood frame around the door perimeter using 2x4's and use acoustical sealant on this framing nailed to the inside of the exterior wall layer.(i.e. - we are on the inside of the garage of course)
3. Fill this newly created cavity with Rockwool
4. Cover with 2-3 layers of gypsum drywall. Seal etc. as a normal wall.
The complication comes in with the wall that is to be built at an angle (to break up a parallel wall and also create another insulator between the outside world and me) inside the space - in front of the new garage door /built up leaf that I just described. This would be a normal 2x4, rockwool, layers drywall on both sides etc. to normal studio design specs. Maybe built a few inches off the built-up Garage door/wall. Filling this with more rockwool... Does this 2nd wall in front of the garage door/wall with a gap pose the same problem you had with your mass/spring/mass issues?
Does this seem plausible? or the way to go?
thanks - best regards,
David
Am I in better shape since I have a WOOD garage door vs. say steel or metal garage doors like you were contending with?
Based on the garage door being wood my plan was to treat it like a separate leaf. So -
1. Make sure the bottom, top and sides are sealed/gasketed and are absolutely airtight.
2. Create a wood frame around the door perimeter using 2x4's and use acoustical sealant on this framing nailed to the inside of the exterior wall layer.(i.e. - we are on the inside of the garage of course)
3. Fill this newly created cavity with Rockwool
4. Cover with 2-3 layers of gypsum drywall. Seal etc. as a normal wall.
The complication comes in with the wall that is to be built at an angle (to break up a parallel wall and also create another insulator between the outside world and me) inside the space - in front of the new garage door /built up leaf that I just described. This would be a normal 2x4, rockwool, layers drywall on both sides etc. to normal studio design specs. Maybe built a few inches off the built-up Garage door/wall. Filling this with more rockwool... Does this 2nd wall in front of the garage door/wall with a gap pose the same problem you had with your mass/spring/mass issues?
Does this seem plausible? or the way to go?
thanks - best regards,
David
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dk01
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- Joined: Thu Aug 26, 2004 6:56 am
See John's drawing at the bottom, it shows the garage door with an angled partition wall in front of it...
http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... highlight=
My original drawing above it - had just a parallel wall against or near the garage door and the opposing wall with the door was angled to break up the parallel walls.
My questions and work are determining how best to build the wall against the garage door and or is sealing/framing the garage door as a leaf or a combination of the two the way to go...
Hmmm... Everyone, thanks for looking...
David
http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... highlight=
My original drawing above it - had just a parallel wall against or near the garage door and the opposing wall with the door was angled to break up the parallel walls.
My questions and work are determining how best to build the wall against the garage door and or is sealing/framing the garage door as a leaf or a combination of the two the way to go...
Hmmm... Everyone, thanks for looking...
David
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Paul Woodlock
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- Location: Peterborough UK
Greetingsdk01 wrote:Paul your studio build diary is fantastic...
Am I in better shape since I have a WOOD garage door vs. say steel or metal garage doors like you were contending with?
Based on the garage door being wood my plan was to treat it like a separate leaf. So -
1. Make sure the bottom, top and sides are sealed/gasketed and are absolutely airtight.
2. Create a wood frame around the door perimeter using 2x4's and use acoustical sealant on this framing nailed to the inside of the exterior wall layer.(i.e. - we are on the inside of the garage of course)
3. Fill this newly created cavity with Rockwool
4. Cover with 2-3 layers of gypsum drywall. Seal etc. as a normal wall.
The complication comes in with the wall that is to be built at an angle (to break up a parallel wall and also create another insulator between the outside world and me) inside the space - in front of the new garage door /built up leaf that I just described. This would be a normal 2x4, rockwool, layers drywall on both sides etc. to normal studio design specs. Maybe built a few inches off the built-up Garage door/wall. Filling this with more rockwool... Does this 2nd wall in front of the garage door/wall with a gap pose the same problem you had with your mass/spring/mass issues?
Does this seem plausible? or the way to go?
thanks - best regards,
David
'Normal Studio Design Specs' do NOT put drywall on BOTH Sides of the studs if you've got another leaf ( your garage door ), as this would create a triple leaf wall, which has worse Isolation specs as a double leaf wall of the same overall thickness, etc.
You need to end up with ONLY TWO LEAFS. Which means drywall on the insde of your INNER wall ONLY. and then try to make the garage door assembly ONE leaf if you can.
An exception would be is to have a triple leaf system, where the garage door is two leafs, but make the Mass-Spring-Mass resonant freqeuncy as HIGH as possible. If you do this, the INNER wall will attenutate the high freqeuncies enough already, to make any anmplification at the garage wall due to the HIGH resonant freqeuncy negligable.
Re-read my Garage Door thread at StudioTips. Eric Desart in particular posted some great stuff on this.
Presumably you want to keep the Garage Door(s) for looks?
Are the doors wooden 'up and over' type? ( even of they are ROLLUP Doors it could still work. )
If so, I have an idea.
1] Remove the door
2] Build a 2 x 4 stud wall just behind where the door was
3] Screw a layer of 3/4" plywood on the outside of this stud wall.
4] Screw as many layers of drywall onto the plywood, depending on how much Isolation you require.
5] remove the mehanisms, and any protuding things fromthe back of the removed door, leaving the back of the door FLAT. ( keep the, parts incase you want to return the door to a working state in the future.
6] Place the Door against your new wall.
7] Screw From INSIDE the garage, through the plywood, through the drywall and into the back of the door. ( This way around to prevent screws been seen from the outisde. The plywood layer is to prevent the screws pulling through the drywall )
8] Rockwool Fill between the studs. Hold it in place using thin steel wire U-nailed into the studs. ( see my diary piccies )
9] This will give you a SOLID ONE LEAF outer wall, that looks like a garage door from the outside.
10] IMPORTANT: I would put some form of dampproof barrier between the modified door, and the drywall of course. Drywall doesn't like water, and you should dampproof the place anyway.
Sorted.
You can now build your INNER wall at ANY ANGLE you like.
Hope that Helps
Paul
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dk01
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It is a great idea... it does clearly point out a common issue some of us run into when we are forced to move our studio from the cozy house to the bleak looking barren garage cause the girlfriend thinks it should be so... the issue is that blasted door!
I NEED TO UPLOAD PHOTOS OF THE GARAGE DOOR and I think this would be a good reference to what is being discussed and to what Paul is suggesting...
Again, luckily in my case its made of wood and a solid one piece door that raises up and slides in old school, not a planked hinge board type of roll up door. This flat plywood door does fit in with Paul's idea. I think I can do the same thing without touching much of the door or removing it and bolting it back on.
Though, some of the spring metal components I do not want to deal with and remove, but certainly building up the door as a solid sealed leaf and then building my angled partition wall inside that will be good bang for the building buck.
The seal around the existing door - a gap of anywhere from 1/2" to 3/8" all around - was an initial concern, too. But, if the wall/garage door leaf as Paul mentioned was built against where the door is - I COULD actually make this leaf alittle wider then then the door opening and HENCE covering and sealing the existing gap. Then just insulate the gap for safety sake and build all round the gap creating that single leaf. Then insulate the 2-3" inch space with Roxul between that garage door leaf and the inner partition wall (which will only be a single leaf of a drywall sandwich). Basically, treating it like a double wall construction.
Paul what page in your diary is how you suspended the insulation in your open gap that you refered to in your response?? You said there were photos of that - I couldn't find em in your diary...
Photos soon...
Best Regards,
David
I NEED TO UPLOAD PHOTOS OF THE GARAGE DOOR and I think this would be a good reference to what is being discussed and to what Paul is suggesting...
Again, luckily in my case its made of wood and a solid one piece door that raises up and slides in old school, not a planked hinge board type of roll up door. This flat plywood door does fit in with Paul's idea. I think I can do the same thing without touching much of the door or removing it and bolting it back on.
Though, some of the spring metal components I do not want to deal with and remove, but certainly building up the door as a solid sealed leaf and then building my angled partition wall inside that will be good bang for the building buck.
The seal around the existing door - a gap of anywhere from 1/2" to 3/8" all around - was an initial concern, too. But, if the wall/garage door leaf as Paul mentioned was built against where the door is - I COULD actually make this leaf alittle wider then then the door opening and HENCE covering and sealing the existing gap. Then just insulate the gap for safety sake and build all round the gap creating that single leaf. Then insulate the 2-3" inch space with Roxul between that garage door leaf and the inner partition wall (which will only be a single leaf of a drywall sandwich). Basically, treating it like a double wall construction.
Paul what page in your diary is how you suspended the insulation in your open gap that you refered to in your response?? You said there were photos of that - I couldn't find em in your diary...
Photos soon...
Best Regards,
David
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Paul Woodlock
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- Location: Peterborough UK
ARRGHHH!!!dk01 wrote:It is a great idea... it does clearly point out a common issue some of us run into when we are forced to move our studio from the cozy house to the bleak looking barren garage cause the girlfriend thinks it should be so... the issue is that blasted door!
I NEED TO UPLOAD PHOTOS OF THE GARAGE DOOR and I think this would be a good reference to what is being discussed and to what Paul is suggesting...
Again, luckily in my case its made of wood and a solid one piece door that raises up and slides in old school, not a planked hinge board type of roll up door. This flat plywood door does fit in with Paul's idea. I think I can do the same thing without touching much of the door or removing it and bolting it back on.
Though, some of the spring metal components I do not want to deal with and remove, but certainly building up the door as a solid sealed leaf and then building my angled partition wall inside that will be good bang for the building buck.
The seal around the existing door - a gap of anywhere from 1/2" to 3/8" all around - was an initial concern, too. But, if the wall/garage door leaf as Paul mentioned was built against where the door is - I COULD actually make this leaf alittle wider then then the door opening and HENCE covering and sealing the existing gap. Then just insulate the gap for safety sake and build all round the gap creating that single leaf. Then insulate the 2-3" inch space with Roxul between that garage door leaf and the inner partition wall (which will only be a single leaf of a drywall sandwich). Basically, treating it like a double wall construction.
NO NO NO - You MUST make the outer wall a SINGLE LEAF!!
This is why I made my suggestion of FIXING the Door to the new outer wall.
You may of course make the new outer wall bigger than the door hole for sealing purposes, but do NOT leave a gap between the new outer wall and the garage door.
If you can get away with not removing the door then by all means do so, but I Don't think you will in practise. The doors aren't difficult to remove, and remove the protuding fittings. I've done this in the past myself.
Please do it properly for your own sake
If it takes an extra days work then so be it. I presume you're gonna be using your studio for many years afterwards, and that's a long time to be disapointed.I recently did some tests on the effects of thinnish leafs with a small gap, and the results ain't good at all. Read here...http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=1198
Paul what page in your diary is how you suspended the insulation in your open gap that you refered to in your response?? You said there were photos of that - I couldn't find em in your diary...
Photos soon...
Best Regards,
David
I can't remember the page number. ( One day I'll index the diary in the first post, but that won't happen for some months
Too busy building the studio )I had two garage doors to make solid, and the piccies appear twice in the diary. You'll have to browse through it I'm afraid.
As a guideline I did the first door just before making the studwalls for the room, and the 2nd door just afterwards, so I Could get all thedrywall I had delivered into the garage without bring it through the house.
I actually built a brick wall behind my doors, as close to the doors as possible, and used expanding foam to make it all into ONE solid leaf. It's qutie strange banging on the metal doors from the outside, and just hearing a dull thud
Right coffee break over, I've got my own studio to build.....
byeeeee
Paul
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dk01
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Hey - I think you misunderstood my poor attempt at writing...
I fully intend to make the garage door into a single leaf - I just think the configuration of the door would allow not unfixing it from the garage.
It will actually be built up as the base of this single leaf just as you said. Add layers to it and screw em all to the door. No gaps on this built up leaf for sure...
The huge springs freak me out honestly - afraid of one snapping when I am unbolting it and nailing me in the eye and blood gushing all over my well vacummed garage floor
But, I guess the springs are unsprung when the door is down and I can simply unbolt them. These honestly are huge springs that completely are in the way of just building up the leaf as I suggested... i.e. - I want to extend the leaf alittle wider on the top and sides so then as to seal the door opening gap - top, bottom, sides. So, if I could undo them easily and safely I will get right on it. I got nailed in the eye with a bungee cord once and ever since I have been shy of things that go "spring"...
I too have the issue of figuring when to do all the work to garage door cause I would prefer to still use it a portal to get my drywall in when that time comes...
Thanks for your help - one of us should index your diary since its a great source of help and inspiration and comedy (you hunting for the block in the drains and covered in shit
- stands out as a fine studio building moment!)
I will get this photo of my door - so others can benefit from all this blah blah writing...
Peace to all,
David
I fully intend to make the garage door into a single leaf - I just think the configuration of the door would allow not unfixing it from the garage.
It will actually be built up as the base of this single leaf just as you said. Add layers to it and screw em all to the door. No gaps on this built up leaf for sure...
The huge springs freak me out honestly - afraid of one snapping when I am unbolting it and nailing me in the eye and blood gushing all over my well vacummed garage floor
But, I guess the springs are unsprung when the door is down and I can simply unbolt them. These honestly are huge springs that completely are in the way of just building up the leaf as I suggested... i.e. - I want to extend the leaf alittle wider on the top and sides so then as to seal the door opening gap - top, bottom, sides. So, if I could undo them easily and safely I will get right on it. I got nailed in the eye with a bungee cord once and ever since I have been shy of things that go "spring"...
I too have the issue of figuring when to do all the work to garage door cause I would prefer to still use it a portal to get my drywall in when that time comes...
Thanks for your help - one of us should index your diary since its a great source of help and inspiration and comedy (you hunting for the block in the drains and covered in shit
- stands out as a fine studio building moment!)I will get this photo of my door - so others can benefit from all this blah blah writing...
Peace to all,
David
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Paul Woodlock
- Posts: 82
- Joined: Tue Oct 07, 2003 1:36 pm
- Location: Peterborough UK
hehe - I had the same 'portal' issuedk01 wrote:Hey - I think you misunderstood my poor attempt at writing...
I fully intend to make the garage door into a single leaf - I just think the configuration of the door would allow not unfixing it from the garage.
It will actually be built up as the base of this single leaf just as you said. Add layers to it and screw em all to the door. No gaps on this built up leaf for sure...
The huge springs freak me out honestly - afraid of one snapping when I am unbolting it and nailing me in the eye and blood gushing all over my well vacummed garage floor
But, I guess the springs are unsprung when the door is down and I can simply unbolt them. These honestly are huge springs that completely are in the way of just building up the leaf as I suggested... i.e. - I want to extend the leaf alittle wider on the top and sides so then as to seal the door opening gap - top, bottom, sides. So, if I could undo them easily and safely I will get right on it. I got nailed in the eye with a bungee cord once and ever since I have been shy of things that go "spring"...
I too have the issue of figuring when to do all the work to garage door cause I would prefer to still use it a portal to get my drywall in when that time comes...
I brought 100 sheets of drywall through the garage door BEFORE bricking it up. Although I still had to bring in another 60 sheets after it was bricked up. Which was a lot harder has it had to be carreid through the house
hehe - thankfully being covered in shit isn't a daily occouranceThanks for your help - one of us should index your diary since its a great source of help and inspiration and comedy (you hunting for the block in the drains and covered in shit
I will get this photo of my door - so others can benefit from all this blah blah writing...
Peace to all,
David
PAul