Music Practice Room- design/reasonable expectations

[bluecollarmusician]

Hello, First I wanted to say heartfelt thanks to everyone who contributes to this forum. I have learned a lot from reading posts here, and a lot of it has been information notably lacking from many sites that seem to be "sponsored" (if you catch my drift.)

I have still more to learn, but I wanted to start a thread in hopes that I can outline my specific situation as I develop a plan to move forward- and hoping from insight from folks who have a lot more practical experience with this stuff. I am sure it's all be done to death 1000 times, but to the newbie their own problem always seems "unique."

I live in a 2 BR condo. I am on the 3rd (and 4th floor) of a 4 floor building. I understand this is not ideal. Moving is not an option. I have one other unit directly beneath me. I am a trumpet player.

My wish list: I would like to be able to practice at home. #1 goal (and the only critical one.)

Bonus goals: 1a) have acceptable acoustics in the room to record remote tracks (I realize a small room is not the ideal for recording trumpet, but it would be a bonus if it would work for commercial remote tracks- not talking about a CD for Telarc.) 2a) if It was a large enough space to teach another student. This is not a major issue, but if the space was that size it would also be more comfortable to play in.

I am in the planning stages- but am ready to build immediately once I have a workable plan that I am confident will meet my objectives.


The trumpet can be pretty loud- and I can be a loud trumpet player. But I don't need to play at the EXTREME levels very much or very often. Likely would save that for when no-one is around. But I would say range is 80-100.

I have a larger space (still small) which is a walk-in closet (on the 3rd floor.) It does not touch any other neighbors (no shared walls, just someone below.) There is a neighbor directly below. This room is already enclosed and the dimensions of the existing room are about 6 feet x 9.5 feet with 8 foot ceilings. The walls to this room are 1 sheet drywall, studs with insulation, and 1 sheet drywall. The existing floor is carpet, pad, 2 layers of subfloor, insulation as well as air around the engineered beams supporting floor and then the drywall on neighbors ceiling.

My initial plan to was build a "room within a room"- lift the floor up on a riser of some sort TBD- basically whatever would give the best noise reduction for downstairs neighbor... and then stud walls and ceiling with 2 xdrywall and green glue/ insulation/ and 2 x drywall green glue box with everything about 2" away from existing walls. I would put a solid door with mass added and seals, as well as solid door into the existing closet with seals. I would add isolated vents w/ fan.


Budget- well, I am willing to spend to do it right, however I would say my budget will be determined by the limitations of my location. I am not re-engineering the building. I am willing to do what it takes for the best isolation within the parameters of keeping it "inside my unit" and not exceeding the existing structural limitations of the building. We plan to be here for a long time, and it's worth it to invest to me- and I think we are likely to be more limited by the existing structure than by our budget.

My cousin is a structural engineer (conveniently) and he plans to help me make certain that I have everything in line give the construction- I have the building plan, and once I have an idea of what I would like to do he will tell me if I CAN do it . As long as I have a signed letter from an engineer the Association will sign off on it.


It is worth pointing out- trumpet does not have a lot of low end, and can't even reach frequencies below 160 HZ, so this is worth pointing out. It might be nice to play music in the room to play along with, but for certain, there would not be any kind of low end like people talk about in their studio or theater rooms.

My question is:
While I have a lot to learn and understand about everything- the floor seems to be the "trickiest" part given that my only major concern is downstairs neighbor- since the rooms only "shared" walls are within my unit. Basically, I feel confident that what I do will quiet it enough to work for my wife within our unit or for other units not directly connected to the practice room- but my downstairs neighbor is the key. In order for me to feel comfortable, I would need to feel very confident that my playing at normal hours would not be a distraction/disturbance in her unit. Give the reasonable floor options (i.e. not pouring a concrete floor in my unit) is this a reasonable possibility? Or are my hopes too high? A little insight will be super helpful.

Thanks-! ( I need to do a drawing... I'll get there!!)

[DanDan]

I think the Trumpet is probably more like 110dB with 120dB blasts. But also I think it is pretty directional. Also as you say no bass.
My recommendation is to plan for a very absorptive booth, like a vocal booth. Invest in nice comfortable sealed headphones and reverb.
Trumpet itself does not really respond to a room like violin or guitar do, but you should be able to play in excellent acoustic environments in your headphones. Altiverb is superb but you don't need to go that far.
What is the boundary, ceiling, floor, between you and neighbour made of? Can you hear them?

[bluecollarmusician]

I think the Trumpet is probably more like 110dB with 120dB blasts. But also I think it is pretty directional. Also as you say no bass.

Agreed- very directional, from the side and from in the front of the trumpet it is pretty dramatic difference. I have played around with a Decibel meter- when I was young and stupid I seem to recall that I could get it to register 120 if I stuck it right in front of the bell and played as loud as I could. I never (or very seldom) ever play that loud. It's possible I am underestimating my "average" practice volume, but I would still guess that without "trying" to play loud I don't go much over 100. But I def agree- can get loud when playing commercial lead trumpet

My recommendation is to plan for a very absorptive booth, like a vocal booth.

Again, 100% agree, and I am actually fine practicing in a super dry environment. It can actually be helpful as long as you don't overplay.
And, using a reverb system also a totally reasonable idea.

What is the boundary, ceiling, floor, between you and neighbour made of? Can you hear them?

So, in my room there is currently carpet, pad, 2 (I think) layers of subfloor nailed into joists. The joists are supported by manufactured Beams (I'd have to measure but probably a 12-15 inch gap with insulation between the beams. Then the drywall of her ceiling.

She has hardwood floors throughout, and I can hear impact noise (if she is in heels, etc.) I don't hear normal conversation. If voices get raised I can sometimes make out words (i.e. I deserve better than a jerk like you!) She had a drunken party last year, and we could definitely hear whoops/screams, etc. She is generally very respectful and quiet most of the time. I like to practice a couple of hours every day, so want to do it in a way that won't be disturbing to her.

Also- worth noting, I am a full time professional musician.... I have made my living as a trumpet player for the last 25 years, so it's a pretty serious thing for me.


Thanks for your input- I really appreciate it!

[DanDan]

Trumpets are meant to be loud! Are they not a battleground instrument. Have you ever been near a marching snare? Clearly you are a gentleman/person trumpet player.
Did you know that most of the Big Band Leaders went deaf from standing in front of the Brass!
You are welcome. Remember I am in Ireland so building norms and materials may be quite different here.....
What are two layers of sub floor? Plywood? Seems like you have a great airgap between your floor and her ceiling. Is it actually fully filled with insulation? What type? A fully filled void like that can add 10dB to the transmission loss. From your comments regarding hearing speech...... Are there any holes or shared vents anywhere? Her light fittings?


I would consult with a building engineer regarding how much weight those beams would support. Maybe replace your floor, installing a full fill of light fibre in the void as you go. Or you might add on top of your floor. Perhaps a layer of Sylomer, sealed, then another layer of mass.... MDF, Cement board.....

[bluecollarmusician]

Again, thanks for your time and input.

What are two layers of sub floor? Plywood? Seems like you have a great airgap between your floor and her ceiling. Is it actually fully filled with insulation? What type? A fully filled void like that can add 10dB to the transmission loss. From your comments regarding hearing speech...... Are there any holes or shared vents anywhere? Her light fittings?

The two layers are OSB or chipboard or something similar- maybe one plywood one chipboard (a compressed wood.)
There is not a ton of insulation as far as I can tell- one bat in each void (I know this from going into the ceiling between the 3rd and 4th floor both within my unit.)

I think that a good part of the worst noise we hear is because of vents...because for sure I can hear "best" if I put my ear to one of the vents.

So it sounds like one option would be to remove subfloor add insulation, and then build better subfloor. I would prefer not to do that only because from the subfloor and below belongs to the association. From the subfloor in belongs to me. It's a fine point, and I don't know that anyone would care... but trying to follow the rules as best I can. Or perhaps I can just build up from the existing subfloor. That's what I was really originally planning to do.

I do have a cousin who is an engineer (structural) and has agreed to review the blueprints, etc. to see what I can do regarding mass, etc.