New project studio construction in Greece

[gavramid]

Hello everyone,I’m Giorgos from Greece, and I’m about to make a project studio on the basement of my house. Unfortunately, I’m on a tight budget and I was thinking to do it DIY. You can see the basement in the follwing drawing. I 'm posting for the 1st time in the forum, so forgive any mistakes on my behalf.

empty floor plan.png

The idea is to make a control room and a play room with drums, amplifiers etc. I was thinking something like the 2nd drawing.

floorplan with rooms.png

The play room will be used for rehearsing and for recording music and voice dubbing. The 1st thing that concerns me is the soundproofing of the play room, so as not to disturb the neighbors and also to be quite enough to record vocals and low-volume instruments like classical guitars etc.
I would be grateful if you could give me advice on the construction, regarding sound insulation, and maybe some things that I missed. I’ve read the thread of Drum Room Construction by beeros05 and the guidance you provide him (especially Soundman2020) and hope you enlighten me with your experience.
I‘m currently on the planning process.

Info about the building

The height of the ceiling is 2.85m and it as all made of concrete except the 2 walls from the 2 sides of the stairs which are red brick. Above the basement there is a ground-floor parking area between pilotis, and on the 1st and 2nd floor family house. The house is in front of a rather traffic road.

Thoughts on design - Walls

As you can see on the drawing, the 3 walls of the space that will be the play room is made of concrete and the 4th on does not already exist. I consider the concrete as the 1st leaf and I was thinking of using a 2-layer of 12,5mm gypsym boards on a 5 cm stud filled with low density rockwool(50kg/m3) as the 2nd leaf and 5cm of gap between the leafs. On the wall that does not exist, I ‘ll build as a second leaf a 3-layer of 12,5mm gypsym boards on a 5cm stud filled with low density rockwool and 10 cm of gap. I used Greg’s MSM TL calculator and got the TL results shown on the following pics.
Results for concretre-gypsym walls

concrete-gyps A.PNG

concrete-gyps B.PNG

Results for gypsym -gypsym walls

gyps-gyps A.PNG

gyps-gyps B.PNG

Did I use the calculator correctly? If yes I think that the results are very encouraging.

Thoughts on design – Floor

After some reading in the forum and considering the basement floor is concrete, I think of just make a decoupling floor, in the following manner. Use 2 layers of 18mm OSB3 using underneath 6cmX6cm (and 2,5cm height) neoprene pads. These pads have max static load 35kg per piece and they work correctly if they are loaded at 70% of maximum load. The gap will be filled with low density rockwool.


Thoughts on design - Ceiling

I was thinking of hanging the ceiling frames on something like this, in order to decouple it from the concrete ceiling.

vibro qh mini .jpg

https://antivibration-systems.com/produ ... o-qh-mini/

The ceiling will be 2 layers of 12,5mm gypsym board mounted on the above system, and the gap will be filled with low density rockwool. Using the MSM TL calculator gave, me the following results.

ceilingb.PNG

ceilingA.PNG

To summarise

So, are my initial thoughts ok? Please let me now if you need me to provide any additional info regarding the project.
Thank you in advance, Giorgos

[Gregwor]

Welcome!

What is the big grey square in the middle of your basement? A pillar?

The idea is to make a control room and a play room with drums, amplifiers etc. I was thinking something like the 2nd drawing.

I wouldn't put your control room near that pillar as it will screw up your stereo image. I would put your live room around that pillar as your live room is allowed to have things like that in the way.

After some reading in the forum and considering the basement floor is concrete, I think of just make a decoupling floor, in the following manner. Use 2 layers of 18mm OSB3 using underneath 6cmX6cm (and 2,5cm height) neoprene pads. These pads have max static load 35kg per piece and they work correctly if they are loaded at 70% of maximum load. The gap will be filled with low density rockwool.

I would just leave the floor as is (concrete). Save yourself money and just paint it or put some cheap flooring down (like laminate or something).

I was thinking of hanging the ceiling frames on something like this, in order to decouple it from the concrete ceiling.

Is there a reason you aren't wanting to FULLY decouple your ceiling like most other people on the forum? I'd suggest building an inside out ceiling that sits on your walls.

The ceiling will be 2 layers of 12,5mm gypsym board mounted on the above system, and the gap will be filled with low density rockwool. Using the MSM TL calculator gave, me the following results.

Since your ceiling wouldn't be fully decoupled, my calculator cannot be used for your current ceiling plan.

So, are my initial thoughts ok?

A few things:

- It sounds like you have a lot of external noise that could hinder your recordings and mixing. Would isolation of your control room be something you're interested in having?

- Why are your walls framed using 2x2 dimensional lumber? That isn't very strong and probably wouldn't pass framing inspection.

- For isolated rooms (like your live room) you MUST consider/design HVAC.

Greg

[gavramid]

Thank you Greg for the responce. I'm glad you guys help me with this.

What is the big grey square in the middle of your basement? A pillar?

Yes, I think this is how its called. It's a concrete column which supports the structure, and ofcourse there is no way to alter it.

I wouldn't put your control room near that pillar as it will screw up your stereo image. I would put your live room around that pillar as your live room is allowed to have things like that in the way.

I was thinking the layout show in the following pic. I got a large format inline board (about 2,3m) And some outboard equipment. Do you think that this kind of gear placement is bad?

studio with gear1.png

I would just leave the floor as is (concrete). Save yourself money and just paint it or put some cheap flooring down (like laminate or something).

Nice to hear that. I ll start leaving the floor as is, and maybe add a drum riser.

- It sounds like you have a lot of external noise that could hinder your recordings and mixing. Would isolation of your control room be something you're interested in having?

The noise comes from the front side where the play room will be. The control is on the backside, and I think it will be quiet enough. Adding the fact that there will be the insulated play room between the road and the control, I think that there might not be a problem.

Why are your walls framed using 2x2 dimensional lumber? That isn't very strong and probably wouldn't pass framing inspection.

As a matter of fact I will use standard gypsum studs thah are 5Χ5cm but I used the 2X2 wood stud in the calculator because the closest much in the dimensions. The studs in Greece is like this. Does this alter the results?

stud.png

Regarding the construction process I was thinking the beeros thread aproach in building the walls.
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=17363
Meaning that the frame of the second leaf will rest/touch the concrete floor and the concrete ceiling. The standard gypsym studs are much more cheaper than big wooden studs. But the gypsym studs can not support the ceiling, so I thought to hang it from the concrete ceiling withe decouplers.

For isolated rooms (like your live room) you MUST consider/design HVAC.

Ofcourse if my thoughts are ok up to here, I will draw a more detailed schem with hvacs and such.

[gavramid]

Hello!
Redesign of the room
So I redesigned the room and draw a frame using 4,5 X 9.5 cm wood studs spaced 60cm, in a typical room in a room construction.So the inner leaf wont touch the outer except the floor, and the ceiling will rest on the inner leaf wall frame. I ll use 2 layer of 12,5mm gypsym board as the 2nd leaf as, and 3 cm insulated gag to the outer concrete leaf. The boards will be oriented as shown below. The inner layer of gypsym boards will be vertical and the outer will be horizontal in parallel with the wood studs.

101 studio.png

I considered using 4,5X9,5 studs for the ceiling, spaced at 60cm. The length of these studs is 4,88meters and they ll hold 2 layer of 12,5mm gypsym board and the insulation.
Are the studs ok for supporting this weight?
I think the two layer boards plus the 30-50kgr/m3 insulation will weight roughly 25 kg per m2.
Should I align and screw the ceiling studs, where the horizontal studs are?

[gavramid]

Good morning from sunny Greece!
So I have almost finshed emptying the basement and (I think!) I made progress reading about framing and learning sketchup. As you can see in the previous post I've designed the inner leaf of the play room. My question is regarding the studs that will support the ceiling. Are 4,5X9,5 cm studs ok to support the ceiling that will weight about 25kg/m2 ? The length of the studs will be 4,9 meters spaced every 60cm. Is the mounting shown in the following picture ok? The ceiling studs will be screwed with 3 or 4 screws.

detail1.png

Thank you so much guys for helping out.
Cheers, Giorgos

[vdegou]

Hey Giorgos!

Unfortunately I don't have enough experience to help you out, just wanting to wish you luck on your project and to let you know I will be watching this closely! I am in a similar situation wanting to build a studio in a basement, and currently in the research phase

Hope everything goes well!

Cheers from Madrid.

[gavramid]

Hey guys!!! I would really appreciate if you could share any thoughts about my questions,so as to continue with the design and make a bill of materials and costs.
So does the 4,5X9,5 studs are ok to bear the 25kg/m2 (or maybe 30kg) ceiling?
Is the way shown in the previous post ok for joining the ceiling studs to the wall frames?
Should all stud joins be screwed or nailed?

I can upload my sketchup file if it is easier for you to check out. Thank you so much in advance.

[Gregwor]

Again, I don't think it's wise to have your control room where it is as you have the pillar there.

Regarding ceiling joists, you need to get an engineer to approve the design. It's really not worth putting anyone in danger without an engineers stamp.

Greg

[gavramid]

Hello guys.
I 've almost got rid of the stuff stored at the basement and I'm re considering the design.
Regarding the control room and the pilar; will the following layout work with some treatment? Maybe install a bass trap or other treatment to the pillar? Will soffit mounting my monitors give better results?

studio with gear1 v2.png

If you think that is not gonna work, do you have an alternative layout to propose?

Regarding the playroom insulation, I think the 4,5X9,5cm wall framing is ok. I m exploring some options for the ceiling.
I contacted a constructor and he proposed two options for the ceiling. Either 50X50X5mm steel studs attached to the wood framing spaced at 50cm from each other, not touching the outer leaf. And the 2nd option is some spring mount systems attached the concrete ceiling (outer leaf) in the following manner.

sh-applications.jpg

The thingy has the following specs
Maximum Load: 25 Κp*
Deflection: 25 mm at maximum load
Natural Frequency: 3 Hz at maximum load

I understand that the spring won't add to the insulation, but will act as a decoupler for the two leafs?
Will this work in the manner like mass-air-mass model? How would affect the equation of the msm resonace?
In my situation the springs are much easier to install, and cost about the same money as the steel studs.
I would appreciate any creative feedback. Thanks guys!

[Soundman2020]

Hi there Giorgos, and Welcome to the forum!

Just adding to what Greg has said...:

I would suggest changing your layout around, and putting the control room at the other end of the area, then have the live room in the rest of the space. I'm wondering if a "corner control room" would work for you: I think it might be a good option. Especially considering your large format console: since a corner control room is set up on the diagonal, the console would have plenty of space.

I consider the concrete as the 1st leaf and I was thinking of using a 2-layer of 12,5mm gypsym boards on a 5 cm stud filled with low density rockwool(50kg/m3) as the 2nd leaf and 5cm of gap between the leafs.

That's fine. Build each of the two rooms like that, and close of the actual studio area with an additional isolation wall, where needed.

After some reading in the forum and considering the basement floor is concrete, I think of just make a decoupling floor, in the following manner. Use 2 layers of 18mm OSB3 using underneath 6cmX6cm (and 2,5cm height) neoprene pads. These pads have max static load 35kg per piece and they work correctly if they are loaded at 70% of maximum load. The gap will be filled with low density rockwool.

Not a good idea. Here's why: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=2&t=8173 You already have an excellent floor: Concrete! It's hard to beat that. Keep that like it is. Maybe polish it and/or stain it, if you don't like the way it looks, or lay laminate flooring on it with a suitable underlay.

I was thinking of hanging the ceiling frames on something like this, in order to decouple it from the concrete ceiling.

It's far better (and easier) to just put a normal "inside out" ceiling on top of each of the two rooms.

I redesigned the room and draw a frame using 4,5 X 9.5 cm wood studs spaced 60cm,

The boards will be oriented as shown below. The inner layer of gypsym boards will be vertical and the outer will be horizontal in parallel with the wood studs.

I considered using 4,5X9,5 studs for the ceiling, spaced at 60cm. The length of these studs is 4,88meters and they ll hold 2 layer of 12,5mm gypsym board and the insulation. Are the studs ok for supporting this weight?

No. You would need larger joists for the ceiling. you can't span that distance with that load using those small joists. You will have to get a structural engineer to tell you what size joists you need.

I think the two layer boards plus the 30-50kgr/m3 insulation will weight roughly 25 kg per m2.

Plus the joists themselves... plus the nails, lights, wiring, caulk, paint, mud, tape, and all the acoustic treatment that you need to put on the ceiling ... You should include all of that in your calculations of the dead load. The total is probably going to be around twice what you are estimating. It might be even more if you have your HVAC silencer boxes resting on the ceiling.

Is the mounting shown in the following picture ok?

No. The joists must rest on top of the top plates, not butt up next to them.

Also, I would consider doing your ceiling "inside-out", like this:

Inside-out-ceiling-01.jpg

Inside-out-ceiling-02.jpg

Inside-out-ceiling-03.jpg

Inside-out-ceiling-04.jpg

Inside-out-ceiling-05.jpg

Inside-out-ceiling-06.jpg

Inside-out-ceiling-07.jpg

Inside-out-ceiling-08.jpg

Inside-out-ceiling-09.jpg

Inside-out-ceiling-10.jpg

Inside-out-ceiling-11.jpg

Inside-out-ceiling-12.jpg

- Stuart -

[gavramid]

Thank you so much for the feedback! I ll come back shortly with photos of the basement and see how to work around the pillar.

I have another question regarding insulation. Here in Greece I can not find this pink insulation that many people use in the forum. I can find knauf mineral wool like "Ultracoustic" (low density 16kg/m3, R-value: 1.51m²K/W) and rockwools (mostly Fibran brand) at various densities like
30 kg/m3 air flow resistivity 10 kPa s/m2, thermal R 1,15 m2K/W
40 kg/m3 air flow resistivity 15 kPa s/m2, thermal R 1,15 m2K/W
50 kg/m3 air flow resistivity 30 kPa-s/m2 thermal R 1,15 m2K/W
75 kg/m3 air flow resistivity 50 kPa-s/m2 thermal R 1,20 m2K/W

What product, or which tech values should I check in order to have a proper MSM system? Is the density critical, or some other value?
I also noticed that the density for the R13 pink insulation is nto documented any where, only R28 and higher density products have a dinsity indication.