Andy Eade’s New (Not Rotten) Basement Studio #2

[andy_eade]

Hi guys!

Some of you may have seen my previous Studio build diary from about 13 years ago. If not, and you’d like to read all about dealing with leaky basements, contractors, and asbestos - you can go here: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4782

This new build is based on the design that Stuart has been helping me with here in the studio design forum: http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=18547

The first phase took quite a few years to get started (two new children will do that), but in that time it’s been mostly planning, research, buying and hoarding of materials, demo and sealing up holes. We did also add a walkout entrance / stairway to allow better access to the studio.

I did spend a fair amount of time and effort sealing off the penetrations to the upstairs using putty packs or acoustical sealant, dampening the ring of the structural poles using Peel & Seal, and filling / blocking off the windows. I kept the existing windows and frames, painted the glass black first, added a thin layer of foam to the glass, and then plugged the hole with one layer of 1/8” lead and two layers of sheetrock, being sure to seal everything air tight as I went. (I can highly recommend Dave from Rotometals for lead sheeting btw.)

So this week the next phase began. 75 sheets of fresh drywall arrived, and my team of contractors began the beef up process yesterday. I’m estimating a February finish so all being well, things should move pretty fast now.

It may be interesting to note that since this was a previously finished basement, I am attempting to reuse as many of the existing materials (2x4’s and insulation) as possible, in an effort to be a) environmentally responsible, and b) cost effective. That’s why there existing framing up, and stacks of insulation in the picture below. The existing framing will be trimmed down, and adjusted to meet the new design. The existing fire blocking will be completely removed and redesigned for the new wall assembly.

Feel free to ask any questions along the way. I really couldn’t have done the last build without the support of this wonderful community and the research opportunities that John’s site here provides.

Cheers!

Andy

[andy_eade]

Hi guys, I’ve moved this question from the design to construction thread as it makes more sense for it to be here since it is now a construction issue.

At the top of the poured concrete foundation there is 4” or so gap up to the firestop. Unfortunately for me the foundation wall does not extend all the way up. I’ve tried to post some pictures starting from a distant view and then gradually getting closer in so that you can see what I’m dealing with. Btw, the firestop and top plate of the existing framing is being removed and replaced for my new inner leaf framing assemblies. So essentially, once you get above that poured concrete, my outer leaf is currently just pressure treated lumber (2x6 presumably) sitting on a foam sheet, and then more lumber (2x4 maybe?). The other side of this is the plastic siding on the outside of the house.

First order of business is to seal any airgaps. As you can see in one of the photo’s, there is some daylight showing through. Once that is done, how should I best beef up this outer leaf to match the concrete? It’s a bit of a nightmare because it’s not even flat. My contractor said he could fill it with drywall strips, but that would certainly be a PITA and labor intensive. I do have a couple of rolls of MLV sitting around that someone gave me, so I had thought about cutting strips of that, filling the void with expanding foam and then caulking in multiple layers of it, but then the density just isn’t going to be enough. My final thought was to ask Dave from Rotometals if he could custom cut me a roll of 1/8” lead sheet that matches that 4” space and caulk that in, again filling the void behind with expanding foam.

What are your thoughts? Any alternate ideas or suggestions?

Many thanks,

Andy

[Gregwor]

Once that is done, how should I best beef up this outer leaf to match the concrete?

Really, just get whatever mass you can afford and is easy to get in there up against the existing mass. Seal the heck out of it. It certainly will be a nightmare. I'd suggest doing it yourself and save the money because like you said, it will be a PITA and do you really want to pay your contractor to spend countless hours doing it?

It sucks, but it needs to be addressed so I'll just say good luck and have patience. Even if you do a little bit each day, just plug away at it!

Greg

[andy_eade]

Thanks Greg. I’m pleased to say that it is finally all done. Sheetrock and lots of acoustical sealant. The structural pole is also now framed, insulated and three layers of 5/8” plus Green Glue added. Hopefully that will prevent the sound between two leaves from transferring to the pole and into the rest of the house. In the below picture of the structural pole you can just about see the sheetrock that has been added around the top perimeter of the poured concrete foundation wall.

I’m also thrilled to say that the beefup process is 90% complete. Only a couple of joist bays remain that will have ductwork to the upstairs replaced with acoustical flexduct, insulated, and then soffited off. There’s also a couple pipes that will be soffited off. As you can see from the picture below, we had to get a little creative with how to support the second layer of beef. I wasn’t able to use the 1x3 cleats in the same way that I did in my last build. Because this house has TJI’s, the second layer of 5/8” doesn’t line up with the lip to allow adding the 1x3 horizontally along the joist bay. Instead we created bridges using the 1x3’s with a strip of 1/4” sheetrock to fill the 1/4” gap. It’s a bit difficult to see in the picture - but I can create a quick sketchup diagram if anyone is interested or running into the same issue with beefing up inbetween TJI’s.

Next up HVAC. I’ve been working on baffle box designs and incorporating them into my Sketchup plan. I have a few questions to ask on that topic so will be posting again soon with more pictures and questions.

Happy Groundhog Day to all. Happy Groundhog Day to all. Happy Groundhog Day to all.

[andy_eade]

Ok so I have a few questions about Baffle Box fundamentals for Greg, Stuart or anyone else with experience. This is one thing I didn’t do on my last build, and I suspect it was the weakest link in my isolation so I want to make sure I get it right on this one.

• Can the inside baffle boxes go between the two leaves? If so is it correct that they need to be mounted to the inner leaf framing?
• How does one prevent sound between the leaves resonating the baffle box and transferring to the inner leaf room? Should I sit the inside wall baffle boxes on neoprene rather than attach them to the 2x4’s? How about for the one I plan to have between the ceiling of studio and floor above? Should I have those sit on neoprene also? Is there another preferred way to resiliently mount the boxes?
• Does the mass of the baffle box need to match the mass of the wall assembly if it is in between the two leaves?
• Am I right to think that the flex duct that is going between the joists, connected to the baffle box, does not need to be soffitted in? Since the purpose of the baffle box is to reduce the sound that got into the HVAC system from one direction or another.

I’m attaching a few pictures of the Baffle box placement I’m considering, for context. Essentially I will be adding inner and outer boxes for the studio (where isolation is key). In the pictures below I’ve yet to add the Inside Return box, but it will sit inside the room where the square from the outer box comes in. For the vocal booth / entrance hallway I will only be adding boxes for the inner room but could add them to the outer (in the mechanical room ) after the fact, if improved isolation is needed. For the Control Room I will have inner and outer boxes for the return, since the ductwork has to go through the studio ceiling, and just an inner box for the supply. Again, I can add an inner box for this after the fact, if improved isolation is required.

I’ve added a PDF of the HVAC plan since the jpeg of it is very difficult to read at 700 pixels wide.

Many thanks in advance for your insight and advice.

Andy.

[Gregwor]

Instead we created bridges using the 1x3’s with a strip of 1/4” sheetrock to fill the 1/4” gap.

Make sure you take those off, caulk where they are and then reattach them in a different spot --> just move them over That way you ensure everything is sealed everywhere!

Can the inside baffle boxes go between the two leaves? If so is it correct that they need to be mounted to the inner leaf framing?

Do you mean the inner leaf silencer boxes? Yes, the outer leaf box can go outside of the outer leaf or else in the MSM cavity. The inner leaf box can go inside of the inner leaf or else in the MSM cavity.

Ideally you want them to be isolated from everything. You could do this by having them sit on stands that are not fixed to anything except the concrete floor. You could then even decouple them from those stands with insulation of neoprene. This is to prevent any vibrations from transmitting into the walls due to turbulence and things like that. BUT, if you HAD to attach the boxes to your walls, you would mount your inner leaf box to your inner leaf framing and your outer leaf box to your outer leaf framing.

How does one prevent sound between the leaves resonating the baffle box and transferring to the inner leaf room? Should I sit the inside wall baffle boxes on neoprene rather than attach them to the 2x4’s?

See my last answer. Also, of course, you decouple the inner and outer leaf silencer boxes from one another using a flexible membrane such as neoprene, fabric or even just flex duct. Here is an example product: https://www.durodyne.com/canada/product ... n_main.htm

How about for the one I plan to have between the ceiling of studio and floor above? Should I have those sit on neoprene also? Is there another preferred way to resiliently mount the boxes?

Ideally, yes. Or even some 703 insulation. Do your best to isolate it!

Does the mass of the baffle box need to match the mass of the wall assembly if it is in between the two leaves?

100% it does. If you have two layers of 5/8" drywall, build your boxes out of 1" MDF. The sleeve as well!

Am I right to think that the flex duct that is going between the joists, connected to the baffle box, does not need to be soffitted in? Since the purpose of the baffle box is to reduce the sound that got into the HVAC system from one direction or another.

I'm sorry but as amazing as your pictures are, I don't follow what is what in them very well. Basically, you want your outer leaf silencers to penetrate the sheathing with the mass we mentioned above (for this example I'll say 1" MDF). Now, that outer leaf silencer has done it's job of providing the same amount of isolation as the sheathing of the wall is. The same analogy works for the inner leaf silencer box. In between the leaves, you don't have to worry about your duct work maintaining mass. Therefore, you can use flex duct if you'd like. I hope that is clear enough for you.

I’ve added a PDF of the HVAC plan since the jpeg of it is very difficult to read at 700 pixels wide.

There are a lot of threads to try and keep track of, so I apologize if this has been pointed out before, but your control room outer leaf is not rectangular. It appears that your outer leaf (at least on your front right corner) follows your soffit wing. I assume you're not soffit mounting your speakers? Either way, not having the rectangular outer leaf front portion of your control room will prevent you from having very crucial bass trapping. You seem to be going all out on this design and build which is amazing, but it sure would suck if the room doesn't perform acoustically as well as it could have. I'd personally try to address this major issue before continuing. Sorry if you've already gone over this issue previously!

Greg

[andy_eade]

Thanks so much for your quick and detailed reply Greg. Your comments were super helpful and right on point. Here are some follow ups to items you had mentioned:

Make sure you take those off, caulk where they are and then reattach them in a different spot --> just move them over That way you ensure everything is sealed everywhere!

Already done! But thanks for looking out for me - it’s always reassuring to know someone’s got your back. It saved me my family’s health in my last build thanks to Sharward identifying asbestos flooring.

Does the mass of the baffle box need to match the mass of the wall assembly if it is in between the two leaves?

100% it does. If you have two layers of 5/8" drywall, build your boxes out of 1" MDF. The sleeve as well!

Good to know about the sleeve. And same rule on mass if the box is going to sit inside your room I assume? I plan to sit the Studio Return box inside the room - almost like a piece of furniture.

Am I right to think that the flex duct that is going between the joists, connected to the baffle box, does not need to be soffitted in? Since the purpose of the baffle box is to reduce the sound that got into the HVAC system from one direction or another.

I'm sorry but as amazing as your pictures are, I don't follow what is what in them very well. Basically, you want your outer leaf silencers to penetrate the sheathing with the mass we mentioned above (for this example I'll say 1" MDF). Now, that outer leaf silencer has done it's job of providing the same amount of isolation as the sheathing of the wall is. The same analogy works for the inner leaf silencer box. In between the leaves, you don't have to worry about your duct work maintaining mass. Therefore, you can use flex duct if you'd like. I hope that is clear enough for you.

Perfectly clear. I was 95% sure that was the case, but I wanted to be 100% sure

I’ve added a PDF of the HVAC plan since the jpeg of it is very difficult to read at 700 pixels wide.

There are a lot of threads to try and keep track of, so I apologize if this has been pointed out before, but your control room outer leaf is not rectangular. It appears that your outer leaf (at least on your front right corner) follows your soffit wing. I assume you're not soffit mounting your speakers? Either way, not having the rectangular outer leaf front portion of your control room will prevent you from having very crucial bass trapping. You seem to be going all out on this design and build which is amazing, but it sure would suck if the room doesn't perform acoustically as well as it could have. I'd personally try to address this major issue before continuing. Sorry if you've already gone over this issue previously!

No need to apologize at all Greg. There are so many threads going on, and additionally my design thread was from about 5 years ago and then I was dormant for a while as we added more children to the family and that took priority over the studio for a while.

So I had originally planned to soffit mount as shown in the picture below. I’m still 50/50 on whether I will soffit or not. Especially after just seeing Chris Lord Alge’s studio in which his speakers are not soffit mounted. Is your concern that you want to see more bass trapping in place of the splayed walls? I do have plenty of space at the back of the room for bass trapping, but hoped to splay the walls to make room for the doorway on the hallway / booth area.

Many thanks again Greg - I recall appreciate your time and your insight.

[Gregwor]

Good to know about the sleeve. And same rule on mass if the box is going to sit inside your room I assume?

Absolutely!

So I had originally planned to soffit mount as shown in the picture below. I’m still 50/50 on whether I will soffit or not. Especially after just seeing Chris Lord Alge’s studio in which his speakers are not soffit mounted. Is your concern that you want to see more bass trapping in place of the splayed walls? I do have plenty of space at the back of the room for bass trapping, but hoped to splay the walls to make room for the doorway on the hallway / booth area.

I see pro dudes with speakers sideways sitting on their meter bridges like Chris does all the time and cringe. Sure, they pump out great mixes, but it doesn't mean they didn't have to learn to work around their room issues. Chris also has a wall of rack gear behind him which is almost for sure screwing things up acoustically. The thing is, there have been a ton of advancements in acoustics and control room design made in the last few decades. If you had the choice of dial up internet because that's what you saw some celebrity use or do you want new super fast fiber? Clearly you want the latest and greatest. That's soffit mounted RFZ!

Regarding bass trapping, yes. You need as much as you can get, period.

Many thanks again Greg - I recall appreciate your time and your insight.

My pleasure!

Greg

[andy_eade]

Yeah I certainly agree with your points about sofiting the speakers, and for how much work and money has gone into this, it would be kind of crazy not to spend the few (relative) extra hours and dollars to maximize it’s potential.

So do you think I’ll be okay with soffiting at the front and then using the entire rear of the room for trapping as well as upper and lower corners in the front part of the room? I assume it’s not recommended to add trapping into that front left corner only (the right side can’t be done due to the vocal booth / hallway immediately next door) - surely that would skew the acoustics in the room to one side? Or is bass less directional and more forgiving due to the longer wavelengths?

Many thanks again,

Andy

[Gregwor]

So do you think I’ll be okay with soffiting at the front and then using the entire rear of the room for trapping as well as upper and lower corners in the front part of the room?

You definitely need the front half of the room to be symmetrical. You can't tweak that one side? Maybe put a door at the front/center of your room between the speakers and then maybe a door on the side of your control room? I know it'd be annoying to pass through your control room but it's an option. You want thick (like 2 feet) of absorption on your entire rear wall. Thicker in the corners. The upper and lower corners of the front wall are also great candidates for trapping. Tricorners are the mos effective though as they terminate 3 walls instead of just 2.

Greg

[andy_eade]

Unfortunately not Greg. I need to be able to use the Control Room and allow traffic to get from the outside door to the studio without disturbing what’s going on in the Control Room. Stuart and a few others had suggested the same back in my design thread a few years ago, and my concern back then (before my business plan required me to have both rooms working simultaneously at times) was that I didn’t want people walking around the back of the console to get to the door.

I can certainly do everything else you’re recommending though. I have a lot of space at the back of the Control Room to use for trapping.

[Gregwor]

Totally. It would suck to get disturbed all the time. Draw it up in more detail with all of the silencer boxes and let's see it!

Greg

[sandledfoot]

Andy,

I missed your new posts! Glad to see your still at it. I'll read through tonight in depth and comment where appropriate.

I'm in the thick of framing for my 2nd gen studio as well... i'll post details and pix soon.

Cheers,
Kevin