Salem Oregon conference center studio

How thick should my walls be, should I float my floors (and if so, how), why is two leaf mass-air-mass design important, etc.

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Re: Salem Oregon conference center studio

Post by Guit-picker »

Thanks for the input Greg! :D
You might want to consider adding an oversized baffle on the front of your soffit so you can remove your speaker or change it out with ease.
Yes, that's my plan too.

I'm concerned about the warnings from the factory about too much sorbothane can actually have a reverse effect. Frankly, I'm wondering if just putting the recommended material ONLY under the speaker with no clamps will suffice. I'm thinking that the speaker is not likely to move - just sitting level on pads on the shelf (no clamp). I hear how "sticky" the sorbothane can be. I hope to get in contact with the factory tonight or tomorrow night and get their recommendation.

-Ron
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Re: Salem Oregon conference center studio

Post by Soundman2020 »

I'm concerned about the warnings from the factory about too much sorbothane can actually have a reverse effect.
That's why you need to calculate! Not guess. It isn't hard to do... :)
Frankly, I'm wondering if just putting the recommended material ONLY under the speaker with no clamps will suffice.
Then the top of the speaker will still be able to move, from vibration, so you'll have to leave a large gap around the speaker front, between the baffle and the speaker, thus creating a different set of problems... :)
I'm thinking that the speaker is not likely to move - just sitting level on pads on the shelf (no clamp).
Well, that would be fine as long as you never plan to turn it on and play loud music through it... :)
I hear how "sticky" the sorbothane can be.
Not sure I understand why that would be good?

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Re: Salem Oregon conference center studio

Post by Guit-picker »

Not sure I understand why that would be good?
Well I figured this sticky stuff would keep the speaker from migrating around on the shelf, considering comments from others as to how hard it is to move the speaker once it's on the sorbothane. .... just thinking out loud.

Stuart, I'm beginning to realize that I must be missing the boat on the theory here. Now I'm wondering just what the goal is. Up to now, I thought the idea of the sorbothane is to isolate speaker vibration from the mounting frame, which would flank into the ceiling, etc. I have been seeing the whole surrounding cavity (Front and sides - insulation, bass trap hangers, ventilation) as the method of enclosing and damping the sound from the back hemisphere coming out from the speaker. Can you clarify better what the goal is and how it works? I don't think it has quite sunk into my brain completely just yet. :( :oops:
:(
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Re: Salem Oregon conference center studio

Post by Soundman2020 »

I thought the idea of the sorbothane is to isolate speaker vibration from the mounting frame, which would flank into the ceiling, etc.
That's the basic concept, yes. Actually, it is one of two basic concepts. The other one (which also works well) is to clamp the speaker in place so rigidly, and with so much mass, that it also has a hard time transferring sound into the structure. To do that method, you don't use rubber at all: you make your enclosure box very tight fitting, and you build a massive, rigid, heavy frame to hold that all in place, very tightly, as though it were held in a large vice. That can work too, and John prefers to do his rooms that way, so it CERTAINLY is a good option if you want to try that. Personally, I prefer to "float" the speaker the way you describe: fully isolated and decoupled from the soffit. It just sits there surrounded by its rubber pads, and it is free to vibrate any way it wants, but it cannot transmit any of that vibration to the structure, because it is decoupled, floated. The floating system is tuned so that it's highest resonant frequency is still an octave lower than the lowest frequency of concern. You need that much to ensure that there won't be any significant transmission, even at low frequencies. Thus, if your lowest frequency of concern is a four-string bass, which goes down to about 40 Hz, then you could get away with tuning the system to 20 Hz. But if you plan on using a six string bass, which goes down to about 31 Hz, then you should tune it below 16 Hz. Of course, that assumes your speaker can actually get down to 31 Hz! If your speaker only gets down to 50 Hz at -6dBm then it won0t be putting out a lot of energy at 31 Hz. If you needed to mix like that, you'd probably add a sub with a cross-over then you wouldn't need to worry about tuning the floating system so low. So a lot depends on YOUR needs in YOUR room: the spectrum you expect to mixing, your speaker make and model, whether or not you use a sub, etc.

However, since the speaker can move, very slightly, with the floating system as it vibrates, you do need to leave a small gap around the front of the speaker, between the edges of the baffle and the speaker cabinet itself. That allows the speaker to vibrate if it wants to, without touching the soffit baffle, which would transfer the vibration into the baffle. Some people seal that gap with very flexible caulk, but I have a different method. In truth, unless you are going for extreme precision, you don't really need to seal it at all, as long as it isn't very big. A couple of mm is fine, but if you make it larger than that, then you can get air movement through that gap, due to the pressure changes around the speaker itself inside the soffit, as compared to the pressure changes outside the baffle, due to the woofer cone moving. If the gap is big, you can get a lot of air flow "luffing" through that gap, which can create an audible sound, and also mess with the acoustics in other ways. If the gap is small, it's not much of an issue. And if it IS an issue, then you can seal the gap and kill the problem.
I have been seeing the whole surrounding cavity (Front and sides - insulation, bass trap hangers, ventilation) as the method of enclosing and damping the sound from the back hemisphere coming out from the speaker.
That's about right, yes. There will ALWAYS be potential resonances inside ANY cavity, so you need damping in there to deal with that, definitely. It's a large box, so the resonances could potentially go down to lowish frequencies, thus the need for shiploads of insulation inside. But you also need to cool the speaker, so you do need to allow a suitable airflow path up the back and around the speaker body. That's another reason I prefer floating: if the speaker is clamped rigidly, there's no airflow around the sides, top and bottom, but with the floating system, there is. There's space between the pads for air to move, in addition to a much deeper space at the rear.
Can you clarify better what the goal is and how it works? I don't think it has quite sunk into my brain completely just yet.
To me, it sounds like you have it about right. Did I say something that confused you, and led you to think that there's something else going on here?

Maybe what you are missing here is that the speaker WANTS to move, and WILL move, due to the vibrations. The woofer is a rather large mass that is chugging in and out over a large distance: it has inertia, and "for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction", so the speakers cabinet wants to move as well, in the opposite way (180° out of phase). The cabinet itself is also vibrating in many different ways, and the rubber ALLOWS that movement to happen... it just prevents it from getting into the soffit structure or the baffle. The movement is not large, of course, if you do the mounting correctly, but it is still there, and you do need to consider it. If you do not restrain the TOP of the speaker, only the bottom, then the top will move MORE than the bottom, and that's a problem. So you need to restrain the speaker with Sorbothane pads all around, not just underneath. For a speaker sitting out in the room on a speaker stand, or the meter bridge, it doesn't matter, since there's no baffle around the speaker for it to "bump into", so it's fine to just have rubber feet for decoupling in that case. But soffit mounting is different, because there IS a baffle, and you have to prevent the speaker from ever coming into contact with it.

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Re: Salem Oregon conference center studio

Post by Guit-picker »

OK, Stuart, that helps a lot! Thanks! :)
So.... Do you think my mounting system as drawn above will work as it is drawn - with sorbothane on top and bottom, providing I get the right amounts of sorbothane worked out?
-Ron
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Re: Salem Oregon conference center studio

Post by Gregwor »

So.... Do you think my mounting system as drawn above will work as it is drawn - with sorbothane on top and bottom, providing I get the right amounts of sorbothane worked out?
So the beautiful thing about your design is that you can torque that lid down lots and emulate having a speaker that weighs hundreds of pounds. Ultimately, this will allow to you achieve way lower frequency isolation. And, like Stuart said, you can adjust it easily to achieve 20% deflection without precision amounts of Sorbothane! The only real experimenting you'll have to do is distributing the Sorbothane under and above your speaker correctly as you speaker won't be perfectly weight balanced.

Also, make sure your design allows you to completely fill around the speaker with insulation to prevent air from moving in and out around the front edge of your speaker. Stuart once wrote in a thread to put Sorbothane completely around the front edge of the speaker. But, as you can imagine, the Sorbothane would be very thin and that would be so hard to do. Therefore, I think insulation would dampen the effects. Maybe Stuart can chime in here to advise.

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Re: Salem Oregon conference center studio

Post by Soundman2020 »

Stuart once wrote in a thread to put Sorbothane completely around the front edge of the speaker. But, as you can imagine, the Sorbothane would be very thin and that would be so hard to do. Therefore, I think insulation would dampen the effects. Maybe Stuart can chime in here to advise.
Right! But it's probably only a major issue if the gap is large, and also if the speaker is large (moving lots of air). For smaller speakers with a smallish gap, it's probably enough to just put insulation around the front of the speaker, behind the rear face of the baffle. Use something that you can cut fairly accurately, such as a semi-rigid insulation (eg: 703) You'll have to slice it down in thickness as well, though, as there's usually not much space between speaker enclosure box and baffle: just a few mm. Get a piece of insulation several inches larger than the speaker cabinet in both width and height, cut a hole the exact size of the speaker cabinet, wrap the insulation with black cloth (so it won't be visible through the gap), and fit it in carefully.

For a larger speaker / larger gap, you probably need to seal it better. Thin slivers of Sorbothane will work, but it's a pain to cut like that. I have hear of some people caulking the gap with highly flexible caulk, but personally I'm not too keen on that: I just don't like the idea of sticking caulk to my beautiful speakers! I suppose you could come up with some way of wrapping the speaker with thin plastic or grease-proof paper, applying the caulk, wait for it to cure, then disassemble to remove the plastic or grease-proof paper, and re-assemble. That should work, and would keep the caulk from actually adhering to the speaker cabinet, but I've never tried it. I have another method that I use, but it's not out there for public consumption yet.... Sorry! :)


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Re: Salem Oregon conference center studio

Post by Gregwor »

What about using a weather stripping sweep on the backside of the baffle? That should seal it good enough while being de-coupled (presuming the sweep is super flimsy)
Stuart, have you ever heard of anyone trying this?

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Re: Salem Oregon conference center studio

Post by Soundman2020 »

What about using a weather stripping sweep on the backside of the baffle? That should seal it good enough while being de-coupled (presuming the sweep is super flimsy)
If you know what the Shore hardness rating is for the rubber, and can do the math to make sure it won't flank, then I guess that could work.
Stuart, have you ever heard of anyone trying this?
I haven't heard of anyone doing that, no.


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Re: Salem Oregon conference center studio

Post by Soundman2020 »

Do you think my mounting system as drawn above will work as it is drawn - with sorbothane on top and bottom, providing I get the right amounts of sorbothane worked out?
I would consider adding the other three faces to your enclosure box (sides and rear) in some way that would still allow the top lid to slide up and down a bit. you do need support all around the speaker to get some rigidity, and to keep it in place in as many planes as possible. Most of the vibration in a speaker is front-to-back, with less up-and-down or side-to-side, so the best way to damp that as much as possible, is by putting sides on your enclosure, with pads there too.

But even if you do it like you have now, yes that should work reasonably well.


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Re: Salem Oregon conference center studio

Post by Guit-picker »

For smaller speakers with a smallish gap, it's probably enough to just put insulation around the front of the speaker, behind the rear face of the baffle. Use something that you can cut fairly accurately, such as a semi-rigid insulation (eg: 703) You'll have to slice it down in thickness as well, though, as there's usually not much space between speaker enclosure box and baffle: just a few mm. Get a piece of insulation several inches larger than the speaker cabinet in both width and height, cut a hole the exact size of the speaker cabinet, wrap the insulation with black cloth (so it won't be visible through the gap), and fit it in carefully.
How about this? I have some 703 on hand already.
Baffle_fiberglass.jpg
Also, I've drawn in the first draft of the baffle pieces. I got the impression that two layers, one of 3/4" OSB and the other 3/4" birch veneer plywood would be better than just one layer of plywood. Stuart, care to comment on that? Is it overkill or is it a good idea?
Birch_OSB_baffle_A.jpg
I'm going to work some more on additional Sorbothane support on the sides and back of speaker as we've discussed. I will post my ideas soon.
FYI: I'm running around this week to get ready to go to Norway for a couple of weeks. I MIGHT get some time to work on the design from there.
-Ron
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Re: Salem Oregon conference center studio

Post by Soundman2020 »

How about this? I have some 703 on hand already.
That should work OK. Wrap it in black fabric.
Also, I've drawn in the first draft of the baffle pieces. I got the impression that two layers, one of 3/4" OSB and the other 3/4" birch veneer plywood would be better than just one layer of plywood. Stuart, care to comment on that? Is it overkill or is it a good idea?
Underkill! :) Get as much mass as you reasonably can on the baffle. However, you do have to be careful about making it too thick: if the baffle is very thick, then the speaker will stick out too far form the enclosure box, and won't get enough support. It will be hard to balance it on Sorbothane. To make it thinner while still keeping it heavy, you need high density materials. One of my customers once cast his speaker baffles in concrete! Worked out great, but not easy to do. Take a look at other high-density options. I think Greg is going to have a layer of steel plate inside his. I've heard of people using lead sheet as well (nothing better!). Fiber-cement board, aluminium plate, sheet rubber, MLV, steel plate, lead sheet, glass, ... lots of options of high-density materials. All expensive!
I'm going to work some more on additional Sorbothane support on the sides and back of speaker as we've discussed. I will post my ideas soon.
:thu:

Also, for the sides of your soffit next to the window in the middle, don't make them too solid: you are going to need insulation there, to deal with the artifacts caused by that sharp corner, and the "cavity" between the soffits.

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Re: Salem Oregon conference center studio

Post by Guit-picker »

However, you do have to be careful about making it too thick
Is 1.5" too thick in your estimation?
That should work OK. Wrap it in black fabric.
I was figuring on a touch of black paint. It's amazing how black can make things "invisible"
Painted_703.jpg
I meant to say last night that I drew a 3/8" gap on the cutout between speaker and baffle. Probably a bit too wide, you think?
...the speaker will stick out too far form the enclosure box
I am a little puzzled about your term "enclosure box". So far, I have this "sorbothane sandwich" shelf/clamp setup around the speaker inside. Am I missing something?
I sure appreciate all the help you're giving, Stuart! 8) :D
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Re: Salem Oregon conference center studio

Post by Soundman2020 »

Is 1.5" too thick in your estimation?
That should be OK, but to make sure, see if your speaker will over-balance of you set it at the edge of a piece of wood with an inch and a half sticking out beyond the edge. It should be fine.
I am a little puzzled about your term "enclosure box". So far, I have this "sorbothane sandwich" shelf/clamp setup around the speaker inside. Am I missing something?
You need panels that go up the SIDES of your speakers too, with sorbothane pads on them. Not just top and bottom. See the comments I made in previous posts.

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Re: Salem Oregon conference center studio

Post by Gregwor »

I was figuring on a touch of black paint.
Paint dries hard. This will cause flanking. Do as Stuart suggested and wrap the 703 in fabric.
I think Greg is going to have a layer of steel plate inside his.
So far, my plan is 1" OSB, then 1/8" steel, then 1" nice looking wood (or to make a total of 1" it will be OSB or MDF with a nice veneer cap). Looking at Studio 3 Productions, it looks like he used hardwood flooring planks for the main soffit chunk and then a nice wood for the baffle. That looks pretty slick too.

Looking at your pictures, it makes me think that the front and back of your speaker platform aren't getting supported well. I see that you have side panels that are your main supports. Maybe you could put some gussets in on the front and rear edges of the platform, providing some support. Or better yet, put some 2x4's on edge all around it instead. I'm not saying my design is perfect, but check it out. It might give you some ideas.

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