Need help with vocal booth/ room dimensions

[flyguyz]

Also, does my ceiling plan sound ok? There is a sprinkler system that I can't cover up. The outer shell ceiling will be installed using a metal grid suspended from the ceiling, drywall attached to the underside of the suspended grid (total height will be around 102").

Do you mean like t-bar ceiling with square little ceiling tiles in it? If so, no. This won't work. Those tiles are light and so is the tin skeleton. You need rigid mass. You have to post some pictures of your ceiling so we see what you're working with.
No I mean a drywall supsension grid. Something like this

https://www.strictlyceilings.com/Conten ... System.jpg

Would keeping the walls as is be a big no no, or should I definitely remove the side walls and use the cement walls (frost wall) as the outer leaf.

Don't keep them.

I plan on continuing demo tomorrow and would like some advice on how to proceed.

- Figure out exactly where your booth other leaf wall between it and the control room will be.
- Cut the existing wood frame there and remove the booth area section. You can reuse most of this wood (at least the studs). Remove all of the ceiling material from this same booth area.
- Build a wall floor to CEILING (the actual building ceiling). Be sure to seal the connections of your wall around the entire perimeter. And don't forget to frame in your door
The ceiling is the underside of one of those wavy roof things (kind of looks like a wavy potato chip), plus there are I beams, sprinkler pipes, etc. running underneath the ceiling. Would be a major pain in the butt to try and run drywall all the way up to the ceiling and create an airtight seal. I will probably have to create my outershell ceiling below the fire sprinkler system. This will create a 3rd leaf though...
-secure some OSB or drywall to whatever the actual ceiling of your building is. Seal all of it. I understand that you might have that main sprinkler system in there. Legally, if you have to keep it, then you cannot cover it. You'll have to live with the fact that it will be the weak link in your transmission loss scheme. Just make sure to leave a small (1/8") gap around it when you put drywall up in which you will fill with Green Glue Sealant. If the gap is any larger you will probably have to use backer rod, then the sealant. You're probably smart to do that on both the inner and outer leaf to make sure you don't have any flanking.
- Assuming you have figured out exactly where your fresh air is coming in and your stale air is going out, build and install your outer leaf silencer boxes including the sleeves that will penetrate your walls.
- After that (I think your plan is to do both those walls inside out), as I said, put your drywall up on your outer leaf partition wall. Seal it all up.
- Now I'm going off of memory here, and we didn't 110% confirm that I understood you, but I believe you will have to build another partition wall for your outer leaf between your room and the storage creepy place behind your booth right? So, build that wall exactly like you build the one on your control room side of your booth (minus the door). Seal it all.
- Now, you should have an air tight outer leaf (minus your door). Here, you can run your electrical and your low voltage conduit.
- Next, frame up your inner leaf walls and if you're doing inside out, you'll be building them in modules. Make sure to bolt the modules together for structural integrity. In this process, you will probably have to install your inner leaf silencers as they will penetrate 2 of your modules. The same goes for your low voltage and electrical. Seal everything every step of the way.
- Next, take in your LVL stud. If you feel that the stud will be too long to get in at this stage, you should take it in and store it down the long length of your room before your outer leaf drywall goes up. I'll post some ceiling plans this week to get some feedback on this
- Put your studs on top of your walls, anchor them. Seal them.
- Build your ceiling modules, install them. Seal them well.
- Now you should have a complete inner leaf (minus door)
- Install your sliding doors. Seal them. Sort out electrical fixtures (assuming you're doing surface mount). Sort out acoustic treatment. Done.

I probably screwed something up or forgot a bunch. But you said you needed some assurance regarding demo, so hopefully that helps.

Greg

[Gregwor]

The ceiling is the underside of one of those wavy roof things (kind of looks like a wavy potato chip), plus there are I beams, sprinkler pipes, etc. running underneath the ceiling. Would be a major pain in the butt to try and run drywall all the way up to the ceiling and create an airtight seal. I will probably have to create my outershell ceiling below the fire sprinkler system. This will create a 3rd leaf though...

Gotcha. That might be your best bet then.

Either way, everything else I wrote still stands.

Greg

[flyguyz]

Here are some images of the ceiling/roof above the drop ceiling that I removed so you can get a better idea of what I am dealing with.

1) There are nails through the roof, I'm pretty sure this is a source of some water drops I have seen while it was raining hard outside. Could i spray around these nails with the expandable foam insulation to prevent future leaks?

2) You can see the wavy roof, would be hard to make an air tight seal unless i used a spray foam type application between the ridges. (but this would still probably lead to some transmission loss, weak point in the outer shell.

I also attached a couple pictures of the frost wall. As you can see, there are some holes in this wall, and even a section that has been cutout (control room side). Im afraid of what I might find if i open up the drywall on the opposite side of the wall. I know keeping the drywall will create a 3rd leaf, but after seeing the shape of the cement frost wall, should I just use the drywall layer as my outer shell instead of the cement wall?

[Gregwor]

1) There are nails through the roof, I'm pretty sure this is a source of some water drops I have seen while it was raining hard outside. Could i spray around these nails with the expandable foam insulation to prevent future leaks?

Sealing holes like that is typically a lot harder than spraying some foam crap on them. You should really tell your landlord about it as the building is his responsibility, not yours. I know for sea cans, to fix holes, they either weld up the little holes or cut out and replace larger squares of metal (again by welding new patches on).

2) You can see the wavy roof, would be hard to make an air tight seal unless i used a spray foam type application between the ridges. (but this would still probably lead to some transmission loss, weak point in the outer shell.

Again, you're probably right to build a ceiling under all that crap. However, I'm not sure you'd pass a building permit if you told them you were covering up the fire suppression components. Since this is in a commercial location, are you going to applying for permits?

I know keeping the drywall will create a 3rd leaf, but after seeing the shape of the cement frost wall, should I just use the drywall layer as my outer shell instead of the cement wall?

No. Rip it down and do it right.

Greg

[flyguyz]

1) There are nails through the roof, I'm pretty sure this is a source of some water drops I have seen while it was raining hard outside. Could i spray around these nails with the expandable foam insulation to prevent future leaks?

Sealing holes like that is typically a lot harder than spraying some foam crap on them. You should really tell your landlord about it as the building is his responsibility, not yours. I know for sea cans, to fix holes, they either weld up the little holes or cut out and replace larger squares of metal (again by welding new patches on).
Yeah I agree, I've reached out to the landlord, awaiting his reply...

2) You can see the wavy roof, would be hard to make an air tight seal unless i used a spray foam type application between the ridges. (but this would still probably lead to some transmission loss, weak point in the outer shell.

Again, you're probably right to build a ceiling under all that crap. However, I'm not sure you'd pass a building permit if you told them you were covering up the fire suppression components. Since this is in a commercial location, are you going to applying for permits?
I ran the plan by the landlord and he said it shouldnt be a problem since themajority of that roomis drop ceiling, only the vocal booth section is drywall ceiling and the area was small enough to be ok.

I know keeping the drywall will create a 3rd leaf, but after seeing the shape of the cement frost wall, should I just use the drywall layer as my outer shell instead of the cement wall?

No. Rip it down and do it right.

Ok, thanks for the input

Greg

[Gregwor]

Again, you're probably right to build a ceiling under all that crap. However, I'm not sure you'd pass a building permit if you told them you were covering up the fire suppression components. Since this is in a commercial location, are you going to applying for permits?

I ran the plan by the landlord and he said it shouldnt be a problem since themajority of that roomis drop ceiling, only the vocal booth section is drywall ceiling and the area was small enough to be ok.

Since you're the tenant and the one doing the work, the liability is on YOU, not your landlord. Just know that if anything goes south, it's your ass on the line.

Greg

[flyguyz]

Understood Thanks for the insight!

On another note...

I am going to start my baffle box build and was wondering if the following plan for passing the duct through the inner and outer leaves is ok...

On one side I will extend the outlet with a wooden duct extension which will slide directly through the drywall with acoustic caulk around the point where it breaks the drywall

On the other side I will have a 6" metal duct passing right through the dw with caulk all around the duct where it passes through.

Would this be acceptable since the baffle box is in between the two leaves and the length of duct is extra short?

Also, could i have the inline fan directly on the outside of the outer leaf or do i need to distance it a certain distance away from the outer leaf?

EDIT: I got a little ahead of myself, I was planning on mounting the baffle box directly to one of the leaves. So there wouldnt be an air gap on between the baffle box and outer leaf. I could probably decouple the wooden sleeve that would go through the inner leaf with a flex duct coupler or something like that.

[Gregwor]

You need one box per wall. Each with a wooden sleeve to pass through the drywall. Your diagram has one box. Not good.

Greg

[flyguyz]

Ok, so I would need a total of 4 baffle boxes then?

one for the intake register in the control room
Flex duct between baffle boxes
one for the incoming air register to the vocal booth

one for the exhaust register from the vocal booth and
Flex duct between baffle boxes
one for the exhaust from the vocal booth to the outside?

so Construction would be...

CR register > outer shell Drywall > baffle box > Flex duct > baffle box > Inner shell drywall (vocal booth) > vocal booth register
and then on the other side of the vocal booth...

Vocal booth register > inner shell drywall (Vocal booth) > baffle box > Flex duct > baffle box > Outer shell dry wall > duct to inline exhaust fan

I will modify the diagram and repost for clarification later today.

[Soundman2020]

Ok, so I would need a total of 4 baffle boxes then?

If you want high isolation for your room, yes. You COULD do it with just one box on each, provided that you have a massive sleeve through the leaf on either end, and a method for decoupling the box from both leaves, but it won't be as good as using two boxes. That's only acceptable if you only need moderate isolation. Another method, even lower on the scale, is to just have one box on the outside of one of the leaves, with a single sleeve that extends through both leaves, once again decoupled form both. That's only good for "medium to low" isolation needs.

Also, could i have the inline fan directly on the outside of the outer leaf or do i need to distance it a certain distance away from the outer leaf?

Assuming that your outer-leaf is the external wall of the building, then you could do that. But it would not be an in-line fan for that application! It would be an exhaust fan. Inline fans go... well... IN LINE .... they have duct on either side of them. Exhaust fans (also sometimes called "extractor fans") only have duct attachment on ONE side, and a register on the other side.

to fix holes, they either weld up the little holes or cut out and replace larger squares of metal (again by welding new patches on).

It can also be done with a pair of large rubber washers (one on each side of the sheet metal), with large galvanized steel washers behind them, threaded on a small bolt to keep them in place. Drill the hole out to the right size for the bolt, thread the bolt through with the washers on each side, and tighten up the nut. As long s there's a large enough flat area of clean metal in good condition around the hole, that can work. But the rubber will need replacing eventually, so the methods that Greg mentioned are better for a more permanent repair.

I ran the plan by the landlord and he said it shouldnt be a problem since themajority of that roomis drop ceiling, only the vocal booth section is drywall ceiling and the area was small enough to be ok.

Unless you have a signed and notarized waiver from the landlord, absolving you of all responsibility, with him fully accepting all responsibility, that would be a bad idea. And even then, you'd be on shaky legal ground. As Greg said, if you modify a structure or safety feature or electrical system or anything else that is regulated by law, then something bad happens, YOU are responsible for all the consequences, including both civil and criminal. Let's say there was a fire in your studio, and the sprinklers didn't put it out because you covered them up. And somebody died. You would be responsible criminally for the death of that person, as well as for the repairs to the landlord's property, as well as any "wrongful death" civil damage suit brought y the family, as well as fines for having disabled the sprinklers, as well a whole bunch of other things. It does not matter at all of the landlord says "Yeah, I think that's OK.", because he is not the regulating authority, and cannot allow you to do something that breaks the law. It would be the same as if he told you "Yeah, it's OK to kill the tenant downstairs". He cannot give you that authority because he does not have it!

In other words, do NOT do anything that your landlord says is OK unless your contract already says that it is OK, AND ALSO it does not violate local, city, state, and national regulations.

Check your building code to find out what is REQUIRED by law, and do not build anything that violates that, even if the landlord says it is OK.

And do make sure you get all the necessary permits and inspections to do this!


- Stuart -

[flyguyz]

Ok Thanks for the input Stuart. Good advice!

I have some question about Constructing the outer shell ceiling...

As of right now, (Length will increase when I knock out the stud walls on the sides and extend the front and rear wall to the cement frost walls that are behind the stud walls shown in the attached diagram) the outer shell ceiling is about 9' 1 3/8" wide, and 16' 2" long.

1) Initially, I thought about using a suspended grid system to hang the outer shell drywall from, however, I am wondering if I would be able to build stud ceiling out of 2 x 4 or 2 x 6 as shown in the image. The joists are 16" o.c., however I can reduce this to 12" o.c. if necessary.

I would have to order 2 x 4 x 10 or 2 x 6 x 10 and cut the 10 foot lengths down to the necessary joist lengths.

2) Would I be able to support one layer of 5/8" drywall using this ceiling framing structure?

3) Would I be able to support 2 layers of 5/8" drywall? (no green glue in between)

4) Is there any way I Could slide a layer of drywall on top of this framing structure and secure it from below the structure (since there wont be headroom to attach from above?

5) If not, can I use liquid nails for drywall along the underside of the joists and then use drywall screws to attach the drywall to the underside of the joists?

6) If I attach the drywall to the ceiling as described in question 5, how much gap do I need between this ceiling and my inside out ceiling that will reside below this? What is the minimum clearance?

7) All of the studs in the space are actually metal stud. Can a ceiling joist structure like this be built using metal studs? Do I need to tear out the metal stud framing and replace it with wood?

This is what I was thinking of doing... Replacing the rear metal frame wall with a wood frame that runs from cement wall to cement wall, removing the two side stud frames and using the cement wall as the sides of my outer shell, building the front wall (where the patio glass door is) out of wood studs. Creating wood stud ceiling as shown in the picture.

Should I forget about framing the ceiling using stud joists, and just stick to using a metal suspsension system to hang the drywall from?

The grid system would create more headroom, but would require me hiring outside help, and may cost more

The wood or metal stud joist plan would cost me headroom, but I would be able to manage building it on my own.

[Soundman2020]

I have some question about Constructing the outer shell ceiling...

Your outer-leaf ceiling is already there! It's the ceiling that you see when you stand in the totally empty place, after you remove everything that is in there (including drop ceiling, etc), and look up. THAT is your outer leaf ceiling.

I think you are referring to your INNER leaf ceiling....

On that assumption, ( ) and also assuming we are talking ONLY about the vocal-booth (not the control room) I'll continue answering your questions above...

1) Initially, I thought about using a suspended grid system to hang the outer shell drywall from, however, I am wondering if I would be able to build stud ceiling out of 2 x 4 or 2 x 6 as shown in the image. The joists are 16" o.c., however I can reduce this to 12" o.c. if necessary.

I would have to order 2 x 4 x 10 or 2 x 6 x 10 and cut the 10 foot lengths down to the necessary joist lengths.

I could tell you, but I really don't want to, because I'm not a qualified structural engineer in the city of Rochester, NY! You really should hire a local structural engineer to tell you what size joists you need. Or look it up on standard joist span tables, or with a joist span calculator. Then get that approved by a local structural engineer...

Basically you need to calculate the total dead load and love load that would b on those joists, then choose the right spacing and joist dimensions that will safely carry that load over that span, using joists of the type of wood that you plan to use, and for the amount of deflection that you need. It's not complex to do, but it's dangerous to guess at.

2) Would I be able to support one layer of 5/8" drywall using this ceiling framing structure?

3) Would I be able to support 2 layers of 5/8" drywall? (no green glue in between)

You could support either one, or two, or more, with or without Green Glue, plus also the insulation, as long as you choose the correct size joists, spacing, and deflection.

4) Is there any way I Could slide a layer of drywall on top of this framing structure and secure it from below the structure (since there wont be headroom to attach from above?

Yes there is: build your ceiling "inside out", based on a "backbone" of larger joists, spaced further apart than normal, then small "modules" that you build on the floor (simple framing with drywall on top) and raise up to fit into that "backbone" structure. This is the best possible way to build a studio ceiling, for maximum headroom and best acoustics.

5) If not, can I use liquid nails for drywall along the underside of the joists and then use drywall screws to attach the drywall to the underside of the joists?

No.

6) If I attach the drywall to the ceiling as described in question 5, how much gap do I need between this ceiling and my inside out ceiling that will reside below this? What is the minimum clearance?

N/A

7) All of the studs in the space are actually metal stud. Can a ceiling joist structure like this be built using metal studs?

Probably, but I've never done one like that in metal. I prefer wood.

Do I need to tear out the metal stud framing and replace it with wood?

Probably not. As long as they are STRUCTURAL metal studs, rated to support a load above, then you are OK. If they are NOT rated for that, then you would have to replace them.

Replacing the rear metal frame wall with a wood frame that runs from cement wall to cement wall,

I assume that you are referring to the inner-leaf rear-wall of your booth? If so, then that CANNOT touch the two cement side walls. I cannot touch ANYTHING except the floor and the rest of the new inner-leaf!

It seems you are still not fully grasping the concept of "room in a room". Basically, you strip out EVERYTHING in the room, until all you see around you is the bare outer leaf. In your case, concrete walls. Then you build your isolation wall that blocks off the space where the booth will be, and that wall runs all the way across, from cement wall to cement wall, floor to ceiling, at what looks to be about 100" away from the end concrete wall. Then you build your new inner-leaf booth within that shell that you have created, as a full stand-alone self-supporting structure, much like a shed: it has four walls and a ceiling, and it does NOT touch the outer-leaf at any point.

8 ) Should I forget about framing the ceiling using stud joists, and just stick to using a metal suspsension system to hang the drywall from?

No.

The wood or metal stud joist plan would cost me headroom,

Sort of, but not really: Build it "inside out", and yes, it lowers the VISUAL wiling of the room, but it raises the ACOUSTIC ceiling of the room, and that's more important.


- Stuart -

[flyguyz]

I have some question about Constructing the outer shell ceiling...

Your outer-leaf ceiling is already there! It's the ceiling that you see when you stand in the totally empty place, after you remove everything that is in there (including drop ceiling, etc), and look up. THAT is your outer leaf ceiling.

I think you are referring to your INNER leaf ceiling....

On that assumption, ( ) and also assuming we are talking ONLY about the vocal-booth (not the control room) I'll continue answering your questions above...

1) Initially, I thought about using a suspended grid system to hang the outer shell drywall from, however, I am wondering if I would be able to build stud ceiling out of 2 x 4 or 2 x 6 as shown in the image. The joists are 16" o.c., however I can reduce this to 12" o.c. if necessary.

I would have to order 2 x 4 x 10 or 2 x 6 x 10 and cut the 10 foot lengths down to the necessary joist lengths.

I could tell you, but I really don't want to, because I'm not a qualified structural engineer in the city of Rochester, NY! You really should hire a local structural engineer to tell you what size joists you need. Or look it up on standard joist span tables, or with a joist span calculator. Then get that approved by a local structural engineer...

Basically you need to calculate the total dead load and love load that would b on those joists, then choose the right spacing and joist dimensions that will safely carry that load over that span, using joists of the type of wood that you plan to use, and for the amount of deflection that you need. It's not complex to do, but it's dangerous to guess at.

2) Would I be able to support one layer of 5/8" drywall using this ceiling framing structure?

3) Would I be able to support 2 layers of 5/8" drywall? (no green glue in between)

You could support either one, or two, or more, with or without Green Glue, plus also the insulation, as long as you choose the correct size joists, spacing, and deflection.

4) Is there any way I Could slide a layer of drywall on top of this framing structure and secure it from below the structure (since there wont be headroom to attach from above?

Yes there is: build your ceiling "inside out", based on a "backbone" of larger joists, spaced further apart than normal, then small "modules" that you build on the floor (simple framing with drywall on top) and raise up to fit into that "backbone" structure. This is the best possible way to build a studio ceiling, for maximum headroom and best acoustics.

5) If not, can I use liquid nails for drywall along the underside of the joists and then use drywall screws to attach the drywall to the underside of the joists?

No.

6) If I attach the drywall to the ceiling as described in question 5, how much gap do I need between this ceiling and my inside out ceiling that will reside below this? What is the minimum clearance?

N/A

7) All of the studs in the space are actually metal stud. Can a ceiling joist structure like this be built using metal studs?

Probably, but I've never done one like that in metal. I prefer wood.

Do I need to tear out the metal stud framing and replace it with wood?

Probably not. As long as they are STRUCTURAL metal studs, rated to support a load above, then you are OK. If they are NOT rated for that, then you would have to replace them.

Replacing the rear metal frame wall with a wood frame that runs from cement wall to cement wall,

I assume that you are referring to the inner-leaf rear-wall of your booth? If so, then that CANNOT touch the two cement side walls. I cannot touch ANYTHING except the floor and the rest of the new inner-leaf!

It seems you are still not fully grasping the concept of "room in a room". Basically, you strip out EVERYTHING in the room, until all you see around you is the bare outer leaf. In your case, concrete walls. Then you build your isolation wall that blocks off the space where the booth will be, and that wall runs all the way across, from cement wall to cement wall, floor to ceiling, at what looks to be about 100" away from the end concrete wall. Then you build your new inner-leaf booth within that shell that you have created, as a full stand-alone self-supporting structure, much like a shed: it has four walls and a ceiling, and it does NOT touch the outer-leaf at any point.

I understand the concept of room in room, however, I mentioned in a previous post that I didnt think I would be able to use the exisitng roof/ceiling as my outer leaf due to obstacles such as fire sprinklers, and a wavy ceiling that would make it difficult to seal the points where the drywall meets the wavy ceiling ridges, plus it could possibly be against code to prevent access to the sprinkler heads. As a result, I was planning on building the room in room knowing that i would have a 3rd leaf as the ceiling. See my post from Mon Jun 11, 2018 6:24 pm, for pictures of the ceiling/roof. I am open ears to any other options you may have to work with...

Also, it may be confusing, but I hid the internal room (vocal booth), and am only showing the outer shell in the picture

8 ) Should I forget about framing the ceiling using stud joists, and just stick to using a metal suspsension system to hang the drywall from?

No.

The wood or metal stud joist plan would cost me headroom,

Sort of, but not really: Build it "inside out", and yes, it lowers the VISUAL wiling of the room, but it raises the ACOUSTIC ceiling of the room, and that's more important.


- Stuart -

[Gregwor]

I think the very first step you need to do here is talk to some authority about your options regarding that sprinkler system. If you're okay to cover it up, then that will change your design. If you have to have it exposed inside your booth, then that clearly changes everything. Heck, maybe the space won't work for you, period. Figure that out and then re-assess your situation.

Greg

[flyguyz]

I think the very first step you need to do here is talk to some authority about your options regarding that sprinkler system. If you're okay to cover it up, then that will change your design. If you have to have it exposed inside your booth, then that clearly changes everything. Heck, maybe the space won't work for you, period. Figure that out and then re-assess your situation.

Greg

I will try and reach out to the city authority today and get some feedback on how to deal with the sprinkler system. In the meantime, If anyone has any knowledge or advice feel free to share it!