Walls vs Windows vs Doors - doing it right this time

[Darth Fader]

Hello all!

What a fantastic resource this forum is.
Spent the better part of two days browsing and learning.

I'm about to start design on my new studio and am wanting to do several things differently this time (isn't that always the case?).
So.. a couple of questions, if i may?
(and then dozens more to follow, I'm sure)

1 - Is there a rule of thumb, when building, when it comes to glass / windows? My main concern is that i think i tend to "overbuild" in some areas and then not pay enough attention to the weak spots - like doors and windows. I'm designing a fairly large studio, with a control room, tracking room and 2-3 iso booths. The floors are concrete, as are the ceilings, but the walls (aside from the outer wall on one side) will be framed. So.. since i have quite a bit of space to create here, the obvious (?) would be to do double drywall, studs with insulation, space, studs with insulation, double drywall (double leaf?) where the most isolation is needed, and then probably double drywall, studs with insulation, double drywall (skip the spaced 2x4 frames) on the less critical areas. The question then would be: Would the previous design gains (i.e. heavier isolation, if you will) be negated by only having 2 panes of glass (btw the control room and the tracking room, for example)? I'm planning on having fairly good sightlines, so quite a bit of glass btw iso and control and tracking and control, etc. (see attached diagram for rough idea, so far). In other words, do i need some sort of super duper glass here? I've read some posts online about glass vs drywall, and it seems to me that the 1/4" pane of glass is roughly the same - absorbtion wise - as a 5/8" sheet of drywall? Is this close? And so.. what are the options here for glass? I'm guessing it gets quite expensive when you start ordering thicknesses about the "standard" window pane styles...

2 - How about doors? I presume for the parts of the studio (between Control room and tracking, for example) I'd want double doors? Are there sliding glass doors one can buy "off the shelf" that are decent enough to be somewhere in the same isolation range as the aforementioned "2+2 layered drywall with 2x 2x4 frames" walls?

I guess what I'm asking is (short version) at what point does the wall become overbuilt, if i want to have a door and a window??

does any of this make sense?

Thank you all, and hope you are having a great weekend.

HH-1.jpg

[Gregwor]

Welcome to the forum S. Husky Hoskulds!

I'm about to start design on my new studio and am wanting to do several things differently this time (isn't that always the case?).

Sadly!

1 - Is there a rule of thumb, when building, when it comes to glass / windows?

Yes. Air tight, seated on something such as neoprene, laminated, and as thick as you can afford (at least the same surface density as the wall that it is sitting it).

and then probably double drywall, studs with insulation, double drywall (skip the spaced 2x4 frames) on the less critical areas.

The only time you would build a "normal" wall would be for walls not associated whatsoever with the studio. And for those, you can use 1 sheet of ultralight 1/2" cheap drywall. These rooms in your design would be the far right rooms. But even your bathroom could not be built this way as it is attached to your recording spaces.

Would the previous design gains (i.e. heavier isolation, if you will) be negated by only having 2 panes of glass (btw the control room and the tracking room

No, presuming you build your windows correctly. See above.

In other words, do i need some sort of super duper glass here?

You could call it super duper compared to the glass in your house windows for sure. Laminated, at least the same surface density as your wall construction.

I've read some posts online about glass vs drywall, and it seems to me that the 1/4" pane of glass is roughly the same - absorbtion wise - as a 5/8" sheet of drywall? Is this close?

It's close to that, yes.

And so.. what are the options here for glass? I'm guessing it gets quite expensive when you start ordering thicknesses about the "standard" window pane styles...

Call around to glass companies (like automotive glass places) and get quotes for the sizes and thickness you require. Don't let them talk you into using 3 thinner pieces. I personally called around for my glass and EVERY single shop tried to convince me that 3 layers of glass was better than 2. Idiots. It is expensive and by the looks of it, will probably be the most expensive features of your studio.

2 - How about doors? I presume for the parts of the studio (between Control room and tracking, for example) I'd want double doors? Are there sliding glass doors one can buy "off the shelf" that are decent enough to be somewhere in the same isolation range as the aforementioned "2+2 layered drywall with 2x 2x4 frames" walls?

Yes, you can buy pre-fab studio sliding glass doors. They're expensive. Like, really expensive. But, the only real way to maintain the isolation you've created by building proper walls.

I guess what I'm asking is (short version) at what point does the wall become overbuilt, if i want to have a door and a window??

Never really. You just have to maintain the surface density and make sure it's sealed very very well. Heavier walls = heavier doors/glass!

does any of this make sense?

Yes.

I'd like to see you draw up your studio layout indicating your 2 leaves and doors everywhere so you can really understand how you have to build it. I assume those are pillars in the middle of your control room? Those could be a nightmare. Do some ray tracing and you'll see what I mean. You also didn't mention how high your ceilings are. Are you able to have an awesome amount of bass trapping in your ceilings as well as running all of your duct work and huge (yes huge, because you have a lot of studio to heat/cool) silencer boxes? It looks like you've designed the entry to your control room at the back of your control room, right where you need to have a few feet worth of bass trapping, not a door, and certainly not a glass door. You've also put a bunch of your glass sliding doors right in the corners of your rooms where you will need extensive amounts of bass trapping. That's not good. Unless I'm crazy, that bathroom shape seems really.... weird. What are the two far right rooms? Can you move the bathroom and guest room further to the right and increase the size of your live room? It seems like you have a large space to build out in, but a tiny live room considering. Where is your utility room going? Do you own this building or are you leasing it? Are you allowed to remove concrete floor chunks to trench conduit in? Do you have neighbours? Do you have any real life pics of the building to share?

Greg

Update your plan and

[Darth Fader]

Hello Greg, and thanks for the prompt reply!

Some great info there, right off the bat.

Some answers:

The ceiling height is 11.5 feet.
If all goes well, I'll own the building (offer has been made.. so if not this one, then something else, but the questions would still be the same.. more or less).

The bathroom.. not an issue, as it's only for the studio, so if there is some leakage / sound, no matter.
And the shape of the bathroom.. it's a rough draft, if you will. I could do a 45 degree angle at the back of the control room as well.. and that would, well, make the bathroom better (a non issue at this point in the game, i suppose).

I don't know about machine room, HVAC and all that.. just starting to read through that section of the forum.. will probably post there as well
I've done a spectacular amount of Mickey-Mousing when it comes to AC in my studios so far, so i'm excited to learn and do it properly this time...

Good point about the back wall / door / entry.. will adjust and re-think.
Also good point about the doors in the corners. I was going for maximum sightlines.. so I might have to adjust that.

And yes.. those are concrete pillars, holding the roof up, essentially. I suppose i might have to treat them? (wrap them in velour, for that 70's look...)

The next question would then be: where does one go to find what is the comparable surface density for glass panes? I.e. like i said: 2x two layers of 5/8" drywall with Green Glue (with two 2x4 frames and 2x 4" fiberglass) = we'll call that our "Level 2 Walls". Would i then need two 1/2" panes of glass?? (yikes!!).

Ok, good for now!!

thanks again, Greg!!

[Gregwor]

I could do a 45 degree angle at the back of the control room as well

You never want your control to get thinner/smaller at the back as it will compress low end.

And yes.. those are concrete pillars, holding the roof up, essentially. I suppose i might have to treat them? (wrap them in velour, for that 70's look...)

You'd have to treat the heck out of them or else they'd screw up your RFZ listening position.

where does one go to find what is the comparable surface density for glass panes? I.e. like i said: 2x two layers of 5/8" drywall with Green Glue (with two 2x4 frames and 2x 4" fiberglass) = we'll call that our "Level 2 Walls". Would i then need two 1/2" panes of glass?? (yikes!!).

There are some values for glass, but to keep it simple, just make the glass half as thick (or thicker) than your drywall. Yes, you'd need two panes roughly 5/8" thick. One for leaf 1. One for leaf 2.

I'll post on your second thread. But the general rule of thumb on the forum is to have only 1 thread going for your build. All of your questions regarding your build will be in one spot so guys like me or other active members can keep track of what build is what.

Greg

[Darth Fader]

Greg!

thank you again.. good stuff.

point taken re: threads - i'll delete the other one.
and Google SketchUp - on it!
and the glass.
makes sense (half the drywall thickness)

and re: silencers.. one at each room / entry, on FEEDS only?
i'm assuming the returns (exhaust) would not need them? (that would be a LOT of silencers...)

ok, on to Sketch Up tutorials...

thanks!!!

[Gregwor]

and Google SketchUp - on it!

https://www.sketchup.com/download/all

Get whatever the newest version of Make your computer supports. Avoid the "Free" online version at all costs.

and re: silencers.. one at each room / entry, on FEEDS only?

One per leaf, and on both supply and return. So, 4 per room.

i'm assuming the returns (exhaust) would not need them? (that would be a LOT of silencers...)

Supply and returns both need them. It is a lot. But that's what's needed to provide the necessary insertion loss. The crazy thing is how big they need to be (twice the cross sectional area of the ducts connected to them! At least 3 baffles per box. They're using the same concept as an exhaust silencer on a motorcyle (think about the small exhaust pipe on a dirt bike. Now look at the size of the silencer on the same dirtbike, it's massive) The impedance mismatch (going from the small duct to the large silencer cross sectional area) is a major part of it's function. The annoying part (when trying to find room for the boxes) is not only doubling the cross sectional area, but then you have to add 2" around the entire thing to account for 1" of MDF + 1" of duct liner. Just be thankful you're considering this stuff now in your layout/design stage rather than trying to find the space for them later! Remember, design it all in SketchUp (100% designed) before you put in a single nail or screw! Trust me, it's the only way for a very specific build like a studio to turn out correctly. Like you implied, do it right this time!

Greg

[Soundman2020]

Hi there, and Welcome to the forum!

What a fantastic resource this forum is.

We think so, yes!

Spent the better part of two days browsing and learning.

Cool! That's a good start to begin to initiate the first approach to commencing to scratch the surface... That's my convoluted way of saying that there's a lot more here than you've seen so far.

1 - Is there a rule of thumb, when building, when it comes to glass / windows? My main concern is that i think i tend to "overbuild" in some areas and then not pay enough attention to the weak spots - like doors and windows.

Adding to what Greg already said, in general it's hard to overbuild a studio, if you want good isolation. It's real easy to "under-build" it. The best option, of course, is to "right-build" it: design all the parrs so they function together at the correct leve for what you need.

A good starting point is to define how much isolation you need, in decibels. And that counts for going BOTH ways: in and out. Many folks come here saying that their places are far away from their neighbors so they don't need isolation as the won't be disturbing anyone... but the forget that they are close to an airport, there's an 8 lane freeway just outside, a railway line runs through the back yard, thunderstorms hit every afternoon with loud rain and hail, and all the other sound sources outside the studio that can totally trash a recording session. So you need to come up with a realistic number that represents how much isolation you need, going both ways. You should define that number in decibels, as that will then allow you to look at charts, tables, graphs, papers and equations that will show you what type of construction techniques and materials you could use to get that level of isolation. In simple terms: if you don't have such a number, or if it is not realistic, then you could indeed end up over-building or under-building your studio.

Regarding windows (and glass in general), the rule of thumb is simple: it needs to have roughly the same surface density as the surrounding wall leaf. Perhaps a little more. As a point of reference, the density of typical glass is around 2500 kg/m3 (give or take a hundred or so), and the density of typical drywall is around 680 kg/m3. So very roughly, your glass needs to be about one third the thickness of the drywall you are using. Thus, if your research shows that you need two layers of 5/8" drywall on each of your two leaves in a wall, then you will need glass that is around 1/2" thick in each of those leaves.

Other general rules: Seal it in, air tight, and keep the gap between the two leaves as large as possible, and at least as large as the gap between the leaves of drywall.

I'm designing a fairly large studio, with a control room, tracking room and 2-3 iso booths.

Nice!

The floors are concrete, as are the ceilings,

Excellent!

but the walls (aside from the outer wall on one side) will be framed. So.. since i have quite a bit of space to create here, the obvious (?) would be to do double drywall, studs with insulation, space, studs with insulation, double drywall (double leaf?) ...

What you describe is, indeed, a two-leaf wall, and is, indeed, the only way to get high isolation at reasonable cost.... assuming that it is done correctly!

... where the most isolation is needed, ...

And that's a problem! With a studio, the place where "most isolation is needed", is... everywhere! Think of it this way: Imagine a guy who wants to put a fish tank in his living room, but decides that he only needs to water-proof the side that faces the room, since that's where he'll be looking in.... so he puts glass on that side of the tank, but cardboard and carpet on the other sides, because only the room side is where "most water-proofing is needed".... You can imagine how well that would work! The water will leak out all over, even towards the living room side: once the water is out, it is out, and it is going wherever it feels like going. Sound is much like water in many aspects, so your studio is exactly like that fish tank. If you only isolate well on the sides where "most isolation is needed", and poorly on the other sides, then the sound will leak out all over, even in the direction of the side that you did very well.... once the sound is out, it is out, and it will go wherever it feels like going, in all directions.

In other words, your isolation plan should treat all sides of the studio equally. If you make one wall better than the others, the sound will simply "go around" the good one, by leaking out through the not-so-good ones then spreading out all over.

and then probably double drywall, studs with insulation, double drywall (skip the spaced 2x4 frames) on the less critical areas.

Assuming that you by "less critical areas" you mean the parts of the building that are NOT part of the studio, then yes, that's fine. Such as lounge, bathroom, lobby, etc.

The basic idea is this: you need to create a complete isolation "shell" around the area where the actual studio rooms will be. That shell will be a single "leaf", meaning something like 2x4 stud framing with sheathing on only ONE side of the framing. That will be constructed as a complete, full, "envelope", sealed air-tight, that surrounds the entire studio area. Then you build the individual rooms INSIDE that shell, with each room being built as a stand-alone single-leaf structure, such as a 2x4 stud frame with sheathing on only ONE side of it. That's all. Simple. So the interior of each room will therefore have two "leaves" between it and the adjacent rooms, and also between it and the outside world. "Outside world" includes everything that is NOT inside the actual isolation shell, such as lounge, bathroom, lobby, garden, garage, and the rest of the universe.

The question then would be: Would the previous design gains (i.e. heavier isolation, if you will) be negated by only having 2 panes of glass

No. Because that's the ONLY possible way to do it! Since each and every room has exactly two leaves between it and the next room, then each of those leaves needs one single pane of glass in it, of the same density as the rest of the leaf.

(btw the control room and the tracking room, for example)?

The control room will be built as a single leaf. The tracking room will be built as a single leaf. Therefore, there are two leaves between the interior of the control room, and the interior of the tracking room. Each leaf will have its one pane of glass.

I'm planning on having fairly good sightlines, so quite a bit of glass btw iso and control and tracking and control, etc.

No problem, and excellent plan! That's the way I normally design studios: with good sight lines, and as much glass as possible. That usually shrinks in the final plans, one the studio owner prices that thick laminate glass, but the original plan is good sight lines and lots of glass.

In other words, do i need some sort of super duper glass here? I've read some posts online about glass vs drywall, and it seems to me that the 1/4" pane of glass is roughly the same - absorbtion wise - as a 5/8" sheet of drywall?

What you need is laminated glass. Each pane of laminated glass is built up from three layers: two layers of ordinary glass, bonded together by a PVB "interlayer", which is like a thin film that "sticks" the two panes together. If you can, then get laminated glass that is made with a special acoustic PVB interlayer, but if that isn't available, or is too expensive, then normal PVB is also OK. Laminated glass cannot be cut: once it is made, it is made. So each piece has to be ordered to the correct dimensions, and manufactured to those dimensions: you can't cut it later yourself. (It can actually be cut, but not easily, and certainly not by the typical studio builder! It needs specialized techniques and equipment to do that: even most glaziers don't bother trying... just order it made to the right size, or design your studio to only use the standard sizes that your supplier commonly has in stock. )

2 - How about doors? I presume for the parts of the studio (between Control room and tracking, for example) I'd want double doors?

Correct. Same rules apply: each leaf has it's own door. So, since there are two leaves between any two give rooms, you need two doors. Each door must be at least the same mass (surface density) as the rest of the leaf, and the gap must be at least as large as the rest of the gap between those two leaves.

Each door must be fully sealed, all around the perimeter (both sides, top and bottom), to retain the hermetic, air-tightness of the rooms. You need at least two full-perimeter seals on each door, and if you have a need for very high isolation, then you need three seals. Those must be independent seals.

Are there sliding glass doors one can buy "off the shelf" that are decent enough

Yes there are, but as Greg pointed out, they are very expensive. Consider at least a few thousand dollars for each of those doors. The more isolation you need, the higher the cost will be. The same rule applies here: one door per leaf, with each door consisting of a SINGLE pane of laminated glass. Don't fall into the trap of buying a door or window with double-glazed units in it: if you did, then you'd have FOUR leaves between the rooms in that area, thus greatly reducing the total isolation. Bad idea. Only a single-pane of laminated glass in each door and window.

I guess what I'm asking is (short version) at what point does the wall become overbuilt, if i want to have a door and a window??

It becomes "over-built" when it provides more isolation than you need for your situation. It's that simple. If you do your homework and find out that you need 45 dB of isolation for your studio, but then you build it for 60 dB of isolation, then it is "over-built" (and it also cost much more than you needed to pay!). It's a wonderful studio, sure, and isolates excellent! But you paid for more than you needed.

On the other hand, if you just took a wild guess and though that 45 dB would be nice, but it actually turns out that you really needed 60 dB, then you have a major disaster on your hands: you "under-built" it, still spending a lot of money on it, but it is basically useless because it does not provide the isolation you need.

That's why it is so important to spend some time figuring out what YOUR number is, in terms of how many decibels of isolation you need.

Note: don't confuse "decibels of isolation" with "STC" ratings. They are not the same at all. Many manufacturers quote the STC rating of their isolation products, but that s a totally useless number for deciding on studio isolation. STC only applies to houses, shops, offices and suchlike, an even then it isn't very good. But it is absolutely inapplicable for studios.

does any of this make sense?

Yup! It sure does! Smart questions.

Looking at your diagram, there are several things that are not optimal, and will need to be fixed...


- Stuart -

[Soundman2020]

... continued from previous post (playing catch-up here: flaky internet connection)...

just starting to read through that section of the forum.. will probably post there as well

It's best to keep all your questions about YOUR studio together in one single thread. If not, then you'll soon lose track of which question was in which thread, and which answer was where. Not to mention that others will find it difficult to follow your build, as your questions and answers will be scatted about all over. I'd suggest that you start a new thread and give it the title of your studio, or a meaningful name: Please don't call it "My New Studio"! There's probably a couple of hundred threads on the forum with that exact name... Use a name that really identifies it as YOUR place.

Once you have done that, out links in your first post there to this thread and any other thread that you have already started, to make it easier to follow, but from then on put all questions, comments, photos, and updates about YOUR studio in that one single thread.

And yes.. those are concrete pillars, holding the roof up, essentially. I suppose i might have to treat them? (wrap them in velour, for that 70's look...)

Then you have a problem! Since those pillars are part of your OUTER leaf, you can't have then INSIDE the room. The would transmit sound in both directions. You can remove them from the room by building a "leaf" around them, and attaching that to your inner-leaf ceiling... or you could re-design the studio so that the pillars fall inside the walls, between the leaves.

Plus, there's the major issue that Greg highlighted; those pillars will really mess up the acoustics response and your mix position. You never want to have reflective surfaces close behind your head. Haas effect, and all that...

The next question would then be: where does one go to find what is the comparable surface density for glass panes?

I mentioned that in my first response (above), but I'll repeat it here: the actual density of glass is roughly 2500 kg/m3. You can use that to calculate the SURFACE density, by dividing by the thickness of the glass. So, if you happen to want 18mm glass, then 2500 * 0.018 = 45 kg/m2. Simple! (For imperial, you'd have to convert those values...).

Get whatever the newest version of [SketchUp] Make your computer supports. Avoid the "Free" online version at all costs.

Yes, yes, and YES! The current latest version is SkatchUp Make 2017. It looks like that will be the last version too; despite the hug outcry from users, Trimble is stubbornly sticking to their decision to shoot themselves in both feet and destroy their cash-cow product.... But that's their decision. When they confirm that silliness (by failing to release a "Make 2018"), I'll be abandoning SketchUp and looking for an alternative.

- Stuart -

[Darth Fader]

Stuart!

thank you for this!
I'll be reading this through - again - asap.

for now, here is the new, consolidated thread
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=21546

right now i'm knee-deep (nay, neck-deep) in Google Sketchup tutorials - yikes!
a different way of thinking, than Adobe Illustrator, or other 2D drawing programs, where im used to selecting a line, nudging it up or down with the arrow keys, typing in a length, position (x/y) etc etc.

more to come!!

[Soundman2020]

right now i'm knee-deep (nay, neck-deep) in Google Sketchup tutorials - yikes!
a different way of thinking, than Adobe Illustrator, or other 2D drawing programs, where im used to selecting a line, nudging it up or down with the arrow keys, typing in a length, position (x/y) etc etc.

Yeah, 3D is a different world: it takes a while to get your head around it, and SketchUp is a bit quirky anyway, but once you get the hang of it, it's VERY powerful.

Big hint: Any time you have made a piece of basic geometry, such as a stud, or a pane of glass, or a sheet of drywall, or whatever, immediately select all the surfaces and lines that make up that "thing", then us the "Make Component" command to turn it onto a self-contained unit. So for example if you make a rectangle then use "push/pull" to stretch it out into a stud, immediately triple-click on that so that it appears fully selected with little blue dots all over all of the sides, then hit "G" (the standard short-cut key for "Make Component") or go to "Edit ---> Make Component", give it a name ("Definition"), and hit "Create". It will then be outlined in blue, instead of having blue dots all over it, indicating that all of the parts are now one single unit. You can then make multiple copies of that, and changing any one of the copies will cause ALL of them to change. So for example if that's a stud, and yo decide to change your wall height from 8 feet to 9 feet, then just select any of those studs (it doesn't matter which one), stretch it out to 9', and all the others will update as well. Powerful! If you want one of them to be different, and NOT update along with all the others, then just select that one, right-click, and choose "Make Unique". Now that one is separated from the others, and will not change when they do. You could then make more copies of that one, and those copies would then follow changes to that one, but not to the original stud. For example, if you have two different sizes of stud, one in the live room, the other in the control room. Very powerful!

Also, get used to using "Layers" and "Scenes". Every time you make a new component, assign it to a "layer". You can then control visibility by turning layers on and off in the Layers menu. So you could have all your studs on a layer called "Studs", then turn them off when they are in the way as you want to work on the drywall. A "Scene" is just a camera viewpoint and a set of layers that are turned on or off.

Once you start using "Components", "Layers", and "Scenes", things will start to fall into place. There are ways for you to assign one component to different layers, if you want to. So the studs in your live room could be assigned to both the "studs" layer and also the "live room" layer, for even more control. So then you can turn off the entire live room (including the studs, drywall, musicians, treatment panels, etc.) or you can just turn off the studs while still seeing the rest. In order to be visible, all of the layers that the object is assigned to must be turned on. Powerful!

- Stuart -

[Gregwor]

Stuart,

I've used SketchUp a ton, but still, to this day struggle with layers. I'd love to have them assigned to multiple layers as you have suggested (live room AND studs for example). Can you step me through assigning it to more than one layer? And what happens if I want to remove it from one of those layers? The only way I've been able to remove it from the one layer I ever use, I have to put it back to "layer 0" and then re-type in the new layer I want it assigned to. Going 2 or more layers deep terrifies me. I wish it had an attribute box where you could click which layers you wanted it assigned to Please help!

Greg

[Soundman2020]

Can you step me through assigning it to more than one layer?

There's a couple of ways of doing that, but the easiest is when you want to assign just ONE component, all by itself, to several layers:

Triple-click on the geometry, so that all the parts (faces and edges) are highlighted with blue dots all over. Hit "G" to group them into a component, then assign the resulting new component to one of the layers. Repeat! In other words, triple-click again, "G", component, assign to a DIFFERENT layer.

The more times you do that, the deeper the hierarchy you create, and you don't want to overdo it as it slows SketchUp down.

For example, let's say that the object is a stud in your control room wall. Triple-click-G and assign to the layer "STUDS". Triple-click-G and assign to the layer "2x4". Triple-click-G and assign to the layer "CONTROL ROOM". Triple-click-G and assign to the layer "CONTROL ROOM WALLS". That stud is now assigned to ALL of those layers. Turning off any one of them will make the stud invisible: all of the layers need to be on so that you can see it.

And what happens if I want to remove it from one of those layers?

To remove that component from one of the layers, start from the top level of the hierarchy and double-click your way down, one level at a time, until you are on the level that you want to eliminate. You can either put it on a different layer, or you can "explode" that level to get rid of it completely: the object will still exist (assuming that there is at least one other level!), but it won't be assigned to that layer any more. For example, if you are on the STUDS - 2x4 - CONTROL ROOM layer, you could just put that on the LIVE ROOM layer instead, and now that stud "belongs" to the live room, instead of the control room. Or you could hit "explode", then it won't below to any room, but it will still be on "STUDS", and "2x4".

You can do the same thing by grouping several components together and assigning them to a layer. In the above case, you could for example make 20 copies (instances" of that stud, select them all, hit "G" to make them into a new component, then assign that to the "FRAMING" layer.

By carefully organizing your layers and components, you can have a very, very powerful system for controlling what you see and don't see, and grouping things together in complex and creative manners.

I wish it had an attribute box where you could click which layers you wanted it assigned to

It does! Open the "Entity Info" window!!!! It shows you which layer the selected component is on, and by clicking on the arrow next to the "Layers" box, you can easily assign it to any layer you want...


- Stuart -

[Gregwor]

I've tried to mess with the layers as you've described. It's still feels really convoluted. I'll keep experimenting and practicing. Thanks for the explanation!

I have Martin-K---Studio--Slovakia-SKP2013-S40 that he or you posted. I assume it's your SketchUp file so I'll try and figure out your layering scheme.

Greg

Edit: I just found the "Outliner" view window. It shows everything and makes selecting component layers a breeze! Hooray!