Casaestudio Project

[casaestudio]

And the back of the CR, that I forgot to include.

Also, there's one more detail: One other reason why I was considering going for two leaves between the CR and LR was to safe a few bucks having two doors, not three. But if that is a big compromise I'll go for three. throughI cannot even guess how the two leaves would work when loud instruments being played in the VB or the room behind the CR, which will be treated too, eventually... I could certainly tolerate certain "rumble" while tracking but I have the feeling that I would regret it in the future...

casaestudio RZF asimetrica back small.jpg

casaestudio RZF simetrica back small2.jpg

Bye for now.

Niko

[casaestudio]

I've got a few questions I'd like to make to clarify concepts.

In http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... fz#p140369 you say: "Para tener el ángulo correcto, hay que posicionar la posición de mezcla correctamente primero, con tu cabeza a aprox. 38% de la profundidad de la sala, y después poner algún tipo de palo vertical unos 35 cm detrás de tu cabeza, en el eje central de la sala." which means "To get the correct angle, the mixing position must be positioned correctly first, with your head approx. 38% of the depth of the room, and then put some kind of upright stick about 35 cm behind your head, in the central axis of the room."

In a RFZ control room, since the front wall is covered by the soffit and bass trapping and finished with a rigid material such as wood, what do I take as the front wall for the measurement? The edge of the isolated wall or the edge of the soffit? I'm asking that because I took the meassurement for that 38% from the front wall, but turns out that, after placing the mixer's desk, I get very little espace on the sides and front to access the door to the BV. That's a double glass door with doors around 55cm wide. If I could move the mixing position 40cm to the back of the room I think I'd have the space I need... but that would get me to the center of the room.
Another alternative to dragging the desk to the back would be to move the mixing desk to the right side but keeping the mixer and mixing position at the center. That way the desk would leave the left side free but I'm afraid of the acoustic impact of the desk off axis...

Acousticaly, the ideal would be to place the access to the VB through the LR, placing the access in the tools/machine room (that's the tubed little room by the LR). With the door there I could just install a window from the CR to the VB and would gain some space for bass trapping and even a PC enclosure. That means an extra window for my wallet but might be worthy.

To tilt or not to tilt? Do you recomend lifting and tilting the monitors in a small room like mine?

HVAC
I'm currently working on the calculations of CFM and the duct size based on the maximum allowable air velocity (FPM). Trying to figure out how to get my figures.
Note that all rooms can add easy natural ventilation every now and then by opening the windows/doors during breaks.
I've figured, roughly, that I'll need between 100 and 120 CFM in the Live Room. Around 90 in the control room and 60 in the VB. That, having taken the 15CFM per person guideline for recording studios, but I'm still digging.

The extractor I already have is a S&P TD-160/100 Silent. 160m3/h and a CFM of 97. Do you think that would do the trick for the Live Room as well as for the VB and CR? Bands rehearsing in the room are mostly 4/5 people.

SILENCERS
I'm pretty much lost on the size of ducting to use, as well as on the size of the silencers.
Do they NEED to be installed inside the wall airgap or can they be installed inside the room also?
Note1: In the vocal booth, on the right wall, adjacent to the tools room, there is the former chimeny exaust tube going up. Maybe that could be of some use for the HVAC. What do you think? I have to use it or seal it, but it's there!
Note2: The ventilated roof -to which I have easy access- is available for ducting if needed.

Thanks again and sorry for so many questions.

Niko

[casaestudio]

In a RFZ control room, since the front wall is covered by the soffit and bass trapping and finished with a rigid material such as wood, what do I take as the front wall for the measurement? The edge of the isolated wall or the edge of the soffit?

Found the answer. 38º of the room's front wall, not the RFZ front treatment. I've introduced a desk print in the plan to see how I could fit it and I think I could be able to build one so I have 60cm on the sides to access the VB door. I also dragged the whole wall to the front a few cm so I equalize the distance between the monitors and listening spot. The minimun differences come from not having adjusted the RFZ wall completely to the side walls. I'll do that tomorrow;

[casaestudio]

Hello. Hope you guys are all well.

So I've been quite busy working and I have not been able to get into this 110% but these are the little updates as for now.

- Leafs replanned. With this plan I'd end up having a corner of the CR (left rear corner) where the inner leaf turns into outer leaf... (I know, I know...) and the whole back wall in the CR would be a single leaf until I do the "wild-card room" (hopefully during 2018). That is the new living room of the house. Unfortunately, the container building is already built and no major changes can be made to it. But, luckily, the whole house is dedicated to the studio and the people staying is because they are recording... and will not mind some noise.

- I have re-thought the planning going for a more simple design regarding the angling of walls in the Live room and vocal booth + layout of rooms.

casaestudio RZF asimetrica all 3 rooms small.jpg

- The CR and LR would be isolated by two leaves.

- I'm doubting if doing the HVAC in CR and VB. The VB has a window to the outside, and a door that I think could get the sufficient air current for it to get renewed easily. The CR has a very direct path to get the same kind of ventilation. + both will have mini splits that could help moving air when renewing. But this is something I want to consider after the LR is built. The installation of a complete HVAC system for the CR and VB would not interfere with the finished LR.

- HVAC in Live Room: I've gone to a short duct throw, minimal. It's almost a ductless design. Again, lack of experience (and knowledge): I don't have a clue whether that would work or not placed as shown in the plan below. I could even install the silencers closer together. But again, maybe it is just better to run long throws of ducting?

casaestudio LIVEROOM HVAC small.jpg

casaestudio RZF asimetrica HVAC short throwsmall.jpg

casaestudio RZF LIVE ROOM HVAC closup2small.jpg

casaestudio RZF asimetrica HVAC AIR INsmall.jpg

casaestudio RZF asimetrica HVAC AIR OUTsmall.jpg

Still figuring out the math...
The LR is 5,11cm x 3,11cm x 2,35cm: 37,34m3. The LR is designed for 5 people at the most. 15L/s x 5=75L/s ; 75 x 3600/1000= 270 ; 270/37,34= 7,3 renovations/hour needed. I'll get there.

To tilt or not to tilt? Do you recomend lifting and tilting the monitors in a small room like mine?

Cheers!

casaestudio + house layout small.jpg

casaestudio RZF asimetrica all 3 rooms small.jpg

casaestudio RZF asimetrica leafs small.jpg

[Soundman2020]

So I've been quite busy working and I have not been able to get into this 110% but these are the little updates as for now.

You fixed some stuff, but made other stuff worse!

Maybe I didn't explain to well: You need to design the control room as a single, stand-alone leaf that does not touch anything else. Yes, that does imply that you will have a 3-leaf system on the side that faces the live room, and that's OK. It is unavoidable, so you will just have to compensate. But there is no need to create 3-leaf systems where it is NOT necessary. That's why I highlighted the unnecessary parts on that diagram I did for you a few days ago, but I did NOT highlight the wall to the live room.

OK, so you did great in straightening out the control room. Much better! You fixed the unnecessary angles in all of the rooms. Great! You used the wasted space much better. Excellent!

But! You completely eliminated the walls on the right and the rear of the CR, which are very necessary! The CR must be a fully-decoupled single-leaf that completely surrounds the room. You made it into just the front and left sides of the room, but fully joined to the rest of the walls: You need to complete the shell again.

You should probably also straighten out the left wall, to make the room more symmetrical. Yes, that implies lost space in the "sound lock" area, but you could use that for storage, or maybe even make it into a mini isolation booth. Or use that space for some of your HVAC silencer boxes, which are large. Or use it as a small machine room, although I'm not sure it would be large enough to accommodate a rack.

- I have re-thought the planning going for a more simple design regarding the angling of walls in the Live room and vocal booth + layout of rooms.

Yes!

- The CR and LR would be isolated by two leaves.

No! Take a closer look: the LR is correctly isolated, the CR is not isolated at all. See above comments...

- I'm doubting if doing the HVAC in CR and VB.

Then i'm doubting that musicians will come back again, after suffering in your studio! I'm talking about the ones that survive, of course: the ones the die in there, certainly won't come back!

The VB has a window to the outside,

... which will have to be completely sealed, and therefore cannot be operable.

Even if you could open that, do you REALLY think your vocalists will be happy singing in that room with the window open when it is 6°C and humid outside in January? Or 30°C and dry outside in July? Does that sound like a good plan to keep them coming back? Even if you only open the doors and windows for a few minutes and put a fan in there to move the air, you'd still get major changes in temperature and humidity when you did that. the human voice does not respond well to sudden changes in temperature and humidity. Ask professional signers if they'd be happy singing in a room that is 28°C and 80% RH one minute, then 8°C and 40% humidity the next... The same applies to many types of instrument: the tone changes as the temperature and humidity change. Do you really want a studio where the tone changes all the time, and vocalists alternatively sweat and freeze, while being starved for oxygen and overwhelmed by CO2, as you open and close the windows because you were tried to save a few dollars buy not installing proper HVAC?

This does not sound like a good business plan to me...

Even with mini-splits in there, it takes time for them to deal with temperature and humidity. And just when it gets that right, you'll need to open the windows again...

Still figuring out the math...
The LR is 5,11cm x 3,11cm x 2,35cm: 37,34m3. The LR is designed for 5 people at the most. 15L/s x 5=75L/s ; 75 x 3600/1000= 270 ; 270/37,34= 7,3 renovations/hour needed. I'll get there.

You are on the right track! Now you need to do the same for the other rooms as well.

To tilt or not to tilt? Do you recomend lifting and tilting the monitors in a small room like mine?

You mean raising the speakers higher than 1.2m, then tilting them down a bit so they are still aimed at the mix position? If that's the question, then no, I would not recommend that.

- Stuart -

[casaestudio]

Hey, Stuart! Thanks for the answer.

Maybe I didn't explain to well

Or I just misunderstood. Got you this time I think.
I'll have three leafs on the side to the LR and two on the rear wall.

Quote:
YELLOW: Thats part of the inner wall in the CR ... I have to choose wether to stick it somehow to the brickwall to keep the 2 leafs
What purpose would that serve? Do you mean just for decoration? Is there something wrong with the wall the way it is that prevents you from plastering it and painting it?

Somehow I took this as an option of a way to go...

You need to complete the shell again

You should probably also straighten out the left wall, to make the room more symmetrical.

Honestly, the door on the rear end of the CR is not meant to be moved. So if I make the room symmetrical I'd lose space on the rear-left side for basstrapping and whatever other treatment. I was having the feeling it would be an overall better solution to keep it asymetrical on the rear, gaining that space for bass trapping, and treat the room to correct and control the asymetric issues. I'm lost in the middle of the ocean here because I don't really know what the real impact of an asymetry like this will be. I've been sketching a symetrical option and some of the "unallocated" space I get as a result could be well used for the CR baffles.

I'll replan a symetric option. and another less asymmetric one.

I think I'm coming to a better understanding on the HVAC part:

LIVE ROOM:
Room volume: 37,34m3 / 1318,64ft3
Room CFM needed: 158CFM
Fan CFM: 160
Changes per hour: 7,23
Velocity (6" ducting): ft/min: 814,87; ft/s: 13,58
Velocity (12" ducting): ft/min: 203,62; ft/s: 3,4
Cross section 6" duct: 28in2 (18064,48mm2) (I got this on the net and is approximate since I could not find the dimension of the inner and outer ring of an insulated 6"duct)
Cross section 12" duct: Could it be 56in2???? Call me "donkey" (despite of donkeys inteligence we call that to ignorants in Spain) but I got all messed up with this part of the math (regarding cross section calculations and consecuent dimensions of the inner part of the silencer ducting). HELP WOULD BE HIGHLY APRECIATED
Anyways, I found a workaround that might lead to valid buffle dimensions: Found a buffle model in sketchup 3D Warehouse (credits to the user "gullfo") and, if its accurate, I could scale it to my needs. It's inside meassures are like this:
- In and out duct size: 203,2mm
_ Duct section size inside silencer: 266,7mm x 353,6mm x 310,1mm

casaestudio Silencer 3D Warehouse.jpg

So, if I scale the duct size in of the model to my duct size (152mm) I can scale the rest.
Diameter scaling: 203,2/1,33= 152,78mm
Duct section size scaling: 266,7/1,33= 200,52mm ; 353,6/1,33= 265,86mm ; 310,1/1,33= 233,15mm.
Do this sound good?

casaestudio Silencer 3D Warehouse scaled.jpg

CONTROL ROOM (36,44m3 / 1286,86ft3)
Room CFM needed: 90CFM
Fan CFM: 100
Changes per hour: 4
Velocity (6" ducting): ft/min: 509,3; ft/s: 8,49
Velocity (12" ducting): ft/min: 127,32; ft/s: 2,12

VOCAL BOOTH (23,20m3 / 819,30ft3)
Room CFM needed: 54CFM
Fan CFM: 100
Changes per hour: 4
Velocity (6" ducting): ft/min: 509,3; ft/s: 8,49
Velocity (12" ducting): ft/min: 127,32; ft/s: 2,12

- Air renovation for every room. That I'm sure now (after my last research on the matter and your last post.)
- One standalone system for each room. (2 silencers for passive intake, 2 for fan powered outtake. Each room)
- Build silencers so the internal ducting doubles the cross section of the feeding duct's and therefore causing a very sudden impedance mismatch on the system. That will lower the velocity and, most important, help and improve sound isolation
- Keep outside-silencers ductwork inside the airgap as short as possible and decouple silencers that connect to each other.
- Place the fan unit far enough and on the outside. Run the long ducting to meet the fan ALWAYS outside the outer leaf. In my case that will be around 6 meters away.

Minisplit AC installation should respect this:
- Pipes not running straight across the air gap in the wall.
_ Pipes bent at 90° (parallel to the floor) right after they get trough the inner wall. Then make a large loop inside the wall (going towards the outer wall making a slope sideways, if I understood right). Then bend the pipe 90º on the opposite direction than the first 90º and take it to the outer wall.
- Caulk the hell out of the holes.

SILENCERS for air renovation should respect this:
- Interior cross section twice the size of the duct that feeds the first baffle.
- Keep same interior cross section on the 90º turns inside the silencer.
- Exit to the room at the same or bigger cross section than the inside of silencer. (could you confirm, please?)
- Connect baffle n.1(inner wall) to baffle n.2 (outer wall) using decoupling material and keeping the doubled cross section. (again confirmation?)
- If to throw any long ducting, the place to do it is outside de outer leaf.
- The outer walls silencers can be used as part of multiroom systems (i.e. driving ducting for each room to a "duct splitter box" and then to the outer wall's silencer)

QUESTIONS and DOUBTS:

1. Should the connection between the inside of the room and the silencer be sized back to 6" or should I do something like this?:

casaestudio Silencer 3D Warehouse duct out.jpg

2. Having in mind that the weakest isolation leaf is the ceiling, but also that I have plenty of accesible room over it in the roof chamber (perfect for ducting and placing the fan units), would you recomend driving the HVAC through it?

As always, thanks so much for being there, Stuart. 5 stars for you.

[casaestudio]

Hello!!

So I got a 41db acoustic door, second hand, for 350€. It's made by Acústica Integral, a well known and respected acoustic design company. The little I know about the specs is this: 30db@120hz, 35db@200hz, 38db@500hz, 42db@1khz, 45db@2khz, 50db@4khz (all aproximate numbers taken from a very blurry pic.) That will go to the back entrance's outer leaf of the Live Room and will install it as soon as it gets here.
Soooo, the LR will have two ways: three glass doors to the CR and two acoustic doors (inner door being 46db and outer door being the 41db one I just got) to the outside through the tools room. That tools room has a normal wooden door already.

The patch pannel in the Live Room will carry all this through type D connectors:

-24 Mic inputs (16 XLR and 8 Combo) Neutrik NC3 FD-L1 and Neutrik NCJ6 FI-S
- 8 XLR male connectors Neutrik NC3 MD-L1
- 2 Instrument connector (didn't find the ideal plug yet)
- 8 Headphone stereo jack connectors Neutrik NJ3 FP-6-C
- 2 Speakon Neutrik NL4 MP-ST
- 4 BNC NBB75 DFIX
- 4 RJ45 Cat6 Neutrik NE8 FDP-B
- 2 HDMI Neutrik NA HDMI-W-B

Also, I'll take some 3 BNC and 3 RJ45 to three spots where I'll install fixed small cameras, and 1 HDMI connector to a LCD display.

The cable I'll be using won't be Mogami as I first thought. All audio cables will be Sommer Cable Mistral Multipair and the instrument inputs will go through Sommer Cable The Spirit.

And that's about it for now. I hope the cables arrive soon and I finish the little details on the HVAC so I get to start the framing.
Hopefully I'll get two HVAC designs posted by the end of the week.

Cheers

[casaestudio]

Extraction fans to be used:

LIVE ROOM: S&P TD-350/125 Silent 165/224CFM
CONTROL ROOM: S&P TD-160/100 N Silent 97/101CFM
VOCAL BOOTH: S&P TD-160/100 N Silent 97/101CFM

Captura de pantalla 2016-11-24 a la(s) 14.19.32.png

HVAC: I'll use an adapter on the fan to 6" ducting outside the leaves.
Cross sectional Area of 6" duct: 181cm2
The silencers' inside ducting will be 122mm x 300mm = 366cm2
The exit to the room will be expanding in size gradually.

Rock on!

[casaestudio]

Hey folks!

Few updates:

Acoustic door arrived and I already placed the frame where it will be installed hoping to have it done sometime this week. Two pics of it.

WhatsApp Image 2016-11-29 at 4.00.49 PM.jpg

WhatsApp Image 2016-11-29 at 4.01.27 PM.jpg

Also started to build the silencers already. Next is to caulk them, fill them with duct insulation, and then add the second layer of OSB.

WhatsApp Image 2016-12-10 at 4.18.57 PM.jpg

And audio cables. Two days after I ordered 45 meters of 12pair Sommer Cable Mistral I found an add from a guy 2 miles away from me that was selling patch bays, Mogami and Gotham cable and XLR/type D boxes for the live room... Too bad I already ordered the Sommer cable but The great thing is that the patch bays are already soldered with most of the cabling I'll be using and just ready to go. That will save me countless hours of ZEN soldering.

So I got 2 96 points Switchcraft patch bays fully loaded.

WhatsApp Image 2016-12-10 at 7.59.44 PM.jpg

I'll be rendering, caulking, sealing and painting during the rest of the week, setting everything ready to start building.

Cheers.

[casaestudio]

Hello!

Almost finished rendering and brickwall building. Pfiuuu... Installed the acoustic door for the outer leaf of the LR. It was not as tough as I first thought it would be; having a full frame for sure helped. It's stable and firm and closes very tight.
Sorry for the sloppy phone pics.
These are before rendering with the door just installed.

door 1.jpg

door 2.jpg

Tomorrow I'll be stopping for a week.

Happy Xmas to all!!

[Soundman2020]

Say! It's starting to look a bit like a studio!

Feliz Navidad a ti también: Para ti, y para tu familia. Y que 2017 sea muy prospero, y lleno de alegría, ... y construcción!


- Stuart -

[casaestudio]

Hello, hello!!!

Just a short message to show some of the updates. I'm getting pretty excited because we will start with drywall on wednesday.
Last week was a very busy and productive week and we've been moving forward quite nicely.

I got lucky too:
Two weeks ago I was looking for second hand acoustic doors and found an interesting ad; someone had one acoustic door quite near to me so I called. It turned out to be some guy that just bought a former studio and was knocking it off. He had three acoustic doors, not just one. So I went there to check them out and found a few workers there, knocking down the place... sooo, after some conversation and so they say "would you be interested in any of these materials?" and they point at a corner full of used mineral wool (but in perfect condition), chipboards and Danosa MAD 4... What??!! They said I could take anything if I was interested. Two hours later I had rented a huge van and was filling it with everything... Yeah!!

So I got
230+ 120cm x 60cm mineral wool 30/40kg/m3.
180+ 120cm x 60cm mineral wool 90 or 150kg/m3
10+ 600cm x 120cm mineral wool roll 23kg/m3
80+ Danosa MAD 4 120cm x 100cm
25+ Danosa MAD 2 120cm x 100cm
25+ 122cm x 244cm x 1,9cm chipboards
25+ 122cm x 244cm x 3cm chipboards
1 set of surface mounted electrical system that was installed in one of the rooms.

Oh, and by the way, I ended up buying all three doors.

I'm back in believing in Xmas magic!

So I'm going now but I won't leave without sharing a few pictures of the latest updates.

Big hug!

[casaestudio]

Hello Everybody.

I already built the ceiling of the LR. Its 13mm drywall + Danosa Mad4 (viscoelastic material) + 15mm drywall installed using silent blocks.

WhatsApp Image 2017-01-30 at 9.15.34 PM.jpg

WhatsApp Image 2017-01-31 at 1.51.24 PM.jpg

WhatsApp Image 2017-02-05 at 3.10.56 PM (1).jpg

WhatsApp Image 2017-02-03 at 1.53.32 AM (2).jpg

WhatsApp Image 2017-02-01 at 1.01.51 PM (1).jpg

On monday I'll try to get the silencers ready for their installation. This is the part in which I feel less confident. I would like to install them outside the wall cavity, just to be ale to service them or even change them if they're not working well. Would that be okay or would that be a risk?

The duct coming from the inline extractor will be (152mm) 6" and the ducting inside silencer will be 200mm x 180mm (a bit more than double the sectional area of the ducting).

Do you think I should better install them inside the wall cavity?

Thanks a lot.

[casaestudio]

Making baffles and framing for them...

I had a doubt about the design this last weekend but I'm back on track.

This is the plan for both exhaust and fresh air systems.

WhatsApp Image 2017-03-03 at 10.51.58 PM.jpg

Some framing for the inner leaf baffle of the exhaust system.

WhatsApp Image 2017-02-28 at 6.41.12 PM.jpg

WhatsApp Image 2017-02-28 at 6.42.30 PM.jpg

WhatsApp Image 2017-02-28 at 7.22.56 PM.jpg

Baffle being wrapped in Danosa MAD4.

WhatsApp Image 2017-03-01 at 8.42.36 PM.jpg

Sandwiching baffle with another sheet of OSB

WhatsApp Image 2017-03-02 at 7.47.14 PM.jpg

Gluing duct insulation inside baffle

WhatsApp Image 2017-03-03 at 1.14.24 PM.jpg

Finished baffle. 3 to go.

Cheers!

[casaestudio]

Hi, just for anybody interested, I opened a new threat in studio design to ask about silencers and baffles and Stuart laid an answer (thanks, mate). This is the topic http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =1&t=20923 , which I quote next:

Cheers!

I have been reading a lot on baffle design and I've seen almost anything regarding duct sizing, number of baffles to use... So much that I'm confused now, and I'm about to make my own baffles so I want to be completly sure I'm going in the right direction.

I would like to clarify duct sizing and cross sectional areas in my own design so I just made a drawing to explain how it goes:

WhatsApp Image 2017-03-03 at 10.51.58 PM.jpg

This drawing shows how the extraction part would work, the fresh air input is not shown but it's pretty much alike.

So, from the inline extractor on the outside there is 6in ductwork (cross sectional area of 28in2) going through the outer wall and going in the "outter baffle box". Inside the outer baffle box the cross sectional area is 56in2. The connection to the "inner baffle box" keeps the same cross sectional area of 56in2.
Once in the inner baffle box the cross sectional area is 56in2 and gets in the live room with that same cross sectional area. Would this be correct?

I hope somebody could answer me
Thanks to all.

Every time there is a sudden change in cross section, either increasing or decreasing, you get an impedance mismatch, which is good! With large impedance mismatch, sound waves tend to "bounce back" at the interface point, phase inverted, and cancel themselves. So you should have changes in cross section at BOTH ends of your silencer box. Air only flows one way through the box, but sound could be going either way...

Also, the change in cross-section does not have to be exactly double (or exactly half). It can be more. In fact, if you have the space to have a larger cross-section inside the box, that's even better.

The only time where I do not reduce the cross section at the "exit" end of the box, is where it goes through the wall to the register. At that location, I try to increase the area again, if possible, or at least keep it the same, to ensure that the air is flowing as slowly as possible. But for all other entry and exit points on silencers, I increase or reduce the cross section as much as possible.

The connection to the "inner baffle box" keeps the same cross sectional area of 56in2.

You don't need to do that. Just go back to 6" duct for that connection.

Once in the inner baffle box the cross sectional area is 56in2 and gets in the live room with that same cross sectional area

If you have 6" duct in the cavity, then the area would once again jump from 28 to 56 (or greater) at the entry to that box. Then it would stay the same (or maybe increase again, if possible) at the exit to the register. That final increase doesn't need to be double: even a small increase can help, to a certain extent.

- Stuart -