Casaestudio Project

[casaestudio]

Hello, guys!
It's quite late over here but I wanted to keep my word and write back soon.
I've been thinking quite a lot on the CR design and on the inner leaf configuration and I'm doubting again whether building it with bricks or drywall... The main reason is the final room dimensions to match a good ratio properly.
The ceiling isolation is my other big concern because, if we choose building with drywall, I'm afraid of not reaching a proper level of isolation... Anyways, I'll get to that deeply later this week.

Regarding the CR design:

that is reasonably close to Louden's second ratio, but the floor area is only about 60% of the recommended size in ITU and EBU, and the volume is 69% of the recommended minimum volume for a control room.

I have replanned the control room giving it a bigger dimension: 2.35m x 3.40m x 5m. Room ratio: 1:1,45:2,13
I have made this decision despite the initial functional location of the small room (vocal/amp booth) that allowed direct access to the live room directly from the house without having to enter the CR... but I think it's still a nice setup for both tracking and mixing plus I added a small machine room/shelf, which is a neat thing. The nearest Louden ratio to this room design is 1:1.4:2.1 (6th best ratio)

How will you provide and distribute the necessary amount of 309 sabins of absorption that you need for that room, to get the decay times within IEC/AEC specs?

According to the new dimensions of the CR, I believe we will have to achieve 378 Sabins of absorbtion to get to ITU RT60 (0.18sec.). There will be some bass trapping and mid-high absorbtion to apply.
Our aim is to get to 0.20 sec., which I believe is a very good reberveration time for mixing.
I intend to build bass traps on the front and rear corners and build DIY absorbtion pannels to be placed on the walls (probably behind a wood frieze with holes on its surface) I'm still researching to design this right... But i think it's very much doable to reach the level of absorbtion we need.

I already have a lot of 4cm Auralex Pyramid (about 30 pannels) and some RPG Profoam http://www.rpgeurope.com/products/produ ... cdata.html but I don't know yet wether I'll use them in the LR, VB or CR.

What coefficient of absorption would you prefer for that?

Don't know 100%, yet. Still researching and learning...

Are you aware that your Schroeder frequency for that room will be 134 Hz, and what do you plan to do about that?

Bass trapping, right? The updated Schroeder frequency for the new dimensions is 182hz acording to http://amroc.andymel.eu/?l=490&w=340&h= ... ing%20room but it is 129hz acording to Bobgolds calc.

Do you think that the Bonello curve for your room is acceptable?

Now, it is, I think. But would be probably worth it to decrease the lenght of the room until 4.9m in order to achieve a better Bonello curve.

Do you think that the location with respect to the Bolt area is acceptable?

Yep, I do with this room.

Did you know that your 3.1.0 tangential mode and your 0.2.1 tangential mode coincide at the same frequency, which just happens to also be the Schroeder frequency? Is that something you should be worried about? Should you do something to treat that, or can you forget about it safely?

I didn´t know... And I still don´t know exactly how important it is. Even though I should have no more coincideces, would you throw a little light on that or point me where to read about that, please?

What will the fundamental SBIR problem be at the mix position in that room, and how will you deal with it?

Don't know... yet. But here are the results from SBIR calculator at http://tripp.com.au/sbir.htm Could you explain it to me roughly?

SBIR.jpg

Do you think that an overall RT-60 time of 200 ms would be good for that room? If not, would you go higher or lower? What would be optimal?

I've read that optimal, for mixing, would be 0,33ms. But ITU is 0.18ms and EBU is 0.2 and both are desirable. What do you think?

This is the info thrown by Bobgolds Room Modes Calc:

Computed Information:
Room Dimensions: Length=4.9 m, Width=3.4 m, Height=2.35 m
Room Ratio: 1 : 1.44 : 2.08
R. Walker BBC 1996:
- 1.1w / h < l / h < ((4.5w / h) - 4): Pass
- l < 3h & w < 3h: Pass
- no integer multiple within 5%: Fail (ratio3 = ratio1 * 2)
Nearest Known Ratio:
- "10) M. M. Louden: 1971: 6th best ratio" 1 : 1.4 : 2.1
RT60 (IEC/AEC N 12-A standard): 225 ms
- ±50ms from 200Hz to 3.5kHz = 175 to 275ms
- ±100ms above 3.5kHz = 125 to 325ms
- <+300ms at 63hz = 525ms
- 300<RT60<600ms
RT60 (ITU/EBU Control Room Recommended): 182 ms
- ±50ms from 200Hz to 4kHz = 132 to 232ms
- <+300ms at 63hz = 482ms
- 200<RT60<400ms
Absorbtion to achieve ITU RT60: 370 sabins
Volume: 39 m^3
Surface Area Total: 68 m^2
Surface Area Floor: 16 m^2
Surface Area Ceiling+Floor: 32 m^2
Surface Area Front Wall: 7 m^2
Surface Area Front and Rear Wall: 14 m^2
Surface Area Left Wall: 11 m^2
Surface Area Left and Right Wall: 22 m^2
Surface Area 4 Walls: 36 m^2
Surface Area 4 Walls + floor: 52 m^2
(sabins - front wall - carpet) / Left+Right+Rear wall: 39 %
(sabins - front wall) / Left+Right+Rear wall: 94 %
Schroeder Fc: 129hz
Frequency Regions:
- No modal boost: 1hz to 35hz
- Room Modes dominate: 35hz to 129hz
- Diffraction and Diffusion dominate: 129hz to 516hz
- Specular reflections and ray accoustics prevail: 516hz to 20000hz
Count (35.1-230hz) : Axials=13, Tangentials=54, Obliques=72
Count (35.1-100hz) : Axials=4, Tangentials=4, Obliques=1
Critical Distance (direct = reverberant field): 3.80m


Stuart, I'll try to get you sketches of the AC, electrical and CR layout soon, so you can give us your opinion if you don´t mind.

Thanks again. Lots and lots.

[casaestudio]

Hello, Stuart and friends. Updating here.

I think I'm starting to get somewhere on the design of the envelopes.

Since we have the ok to embed (with bricks and cement) the frame right next to the brickwall in between the garage and the living room, we are making that brickwall 20cm thick and adding a lot of mass. We are leaving the gaps where we will probably install doors and windows untouched. You should remember that a brickwall is the visible wall inside the garage, but in the living room side the room was finished with an air gap + drywall screwed to the so called frame...

We have one more issue to solve, though: That brickwall separating the garage and living room is connected to the rest of the OUTER walls of the garage. Bad. The good news is that nothing is sitting on it; that wall is just standing there... so I imagine we could cut and separate that wall from the rest right at the end of that wall, disconnecting it from the rest of the outer walls. Looking at the drawing will definetly help to understand (note that the thickness of walls may difer a little bit with the real meassurements)

envelopes 2.jpg

Before, we were dealing with a mandatory 3 leaf config because we didn't know if we could touch the framing or not. Now I'm happy to announce that we will be having a 2 leaf system after embedding the frame into the existing wall. Great.

As for the ceiling, our idea is to lay a 4cm concrete in the LR, a 10cm air gap and 2 layers of 15mm drywall. Do you think that will work well enough at killing the sound?

Now, I have a few issues I'd like to ask about:

- Would it make a huge impact to leave only a 10cm air gap between CR and VB while keeping the 20cm airgap for the rest? If possible, I'd like to do that also in the left wall of the garage because that wall goes directly into a tools room, that will be working as an airlock as well.

- That tools room could make one or two great amp booths in the future... Would you do any pre-work to set it ready to isolate it in the future? (Other than cabling)

Control room design coming soon.

Cheers!

[Silvestre]

Hello again, Nico,

We have just talked about writting this one. Please be clement with us, all you wise people in this forum, and we'll try not to screw it up too often in our way to knowledge.

We did this time. The solution we (through Nico's "Casaestudio" user account) explained in our last post have been rejected a week ago in a session where we met to talk about the possibilities of the actual building.

It wouldn't work as a two isolated leaves system as long as the wall between the living-room (the room that would have the future CR in) and the garage (the one to containg the live room) is conected to every other wall in the house by the beams that hold the roof. That was the reason we came up with the three leaves alternative.

We are doing our homework... we promise

Just a glimpse at our not yet finished SketchUp representation of what we have here, to prove we are taking your words and efforts seriously... I have attached a *.skp file... every wall in the image there is conected to the roof and to the actual drywall ceilling (250cm height... right where the walls end)

20160815 - Casaestudio 06_19.jpg

I could answered some questions too about the resonance frequency of the walls and ceillings Nico is proposing in the previous post (I think he knows and fears that too) although I know he maybe would like too contrast the results with the ones an expert would get.

Here I go.

a.- I'm guessing our walls with a "tosco" brick place on his right side could be around 200kg per square meter. Those are the walls Nico draw as "12cm".

b.- Still guessing... our reinforced walls with a "tosco" brick turned, sat on the "wrong" side, and plastered against a brick wall like the previous 200kg/m2 could end being around 270kg/m2. Those are the walls listed as "20cm"

c.- The inner walls as "9cm" (green line on Nico's drawing) are "toscos" again... bricks that would sat on their side instead of their bottom... with their holes fully (or maybe "fooly") plastered to make them solid... around 170kg/m2

d.- The "16cm" wall is a cinder block wall... I have read somewhere... maybe in this forum, in a thread of a french studio in a farm... that this kind of walls could be around 280kg/m2 but maybe I'm mistaking the source and the data.

e.- the drywalls in Nico's drawing might be around 30 to 35kg/m2... depending on their thickness... wouldn't they?... 30kg/m2 for a 3,4cm wall made up of three layers of drywall?... and 35Kg for a 3,8cm drywall in several layers?... I don't get along too well with drywall... you will realize...

So the resonance frequencies would be as follow (I hope I made the maths right)

1.- with a double wall with a leaf as the one described on "a", 20cm of air gap, and another leaf as the one in "c": 19.6Hz
2.- same air gap, but a leaf described as "d" and a leaf described as "c": 18.2Hz
3.- same air gap, but a leaf described as "b" and a leaf described as "e": 34Hz to 35.7Hz
4.- same air gap, but two drywall leaves as in "e": 44Hz in the best case... it seems too little to me... maybe I did something wrong

... and an option Nico's drawing and choice in that last post doesn't reflect...

5.- same air gap, but a leaf described as "c" and a leaf described as "b": 18.3Hz

Sorry for our continous and on going posting

We (Nico, Marcio and I) haven't met for a few days and guess will come up with new (maybe old, as they were discussed before) solutions.

We hope not to end with your patience

Have a nice day

[Soundman2020]

You should remember that a brickwall is the visible wall inside the garage, but in the living room side the room was finished with an air gap + drywall screwed to the so called frame...

Just to be 100% certain: So your plan now is to replace that frame with a second brick wall, right next to the original wall, and fully touching it?

so I imagine we could cut and separate that wall from the rest right at the end of that wall, disconnecting it from the rest of the outer walls.

I would not do that! That would leave the wall with no lateral support, and it might also be providing lateral support for other walls. Check with a structural engineer before you make major changes like that! Even though it might not be supporting any load above, it might still be providing structural support for the walls on either end... simply cutting off the ends like that would be a really bad idea if you want the house to stay standing up! Never modify any major part of a building with first consulting a structural engineer.

If he DOES confirm that the wall is not doing anything structurally at all, then don't just cut the ends: take it out completely. It will give you a few inches extra space, and better isolation for less work.

If you are able to cut the ends, and want to leave it in place anyway, then you will likely need to add brick pillars at each end to provide proper lateral support. That would also likely involve digging proper foundations for those pillars...

As for the ceiling, our idea is to lay a 4cm concrete in the LR, a 10cm air gap and 2 layers of 15mm drywall. Do you think that will work well enough at killing the sound?

Once again, check with a structural engineer on how to do that, and even if you can do that. 4" of concrete over several square meters is very massive: it weight a LOT. It needs to be supported correctly with a suitable grid of rebar, correctly tied into the walls and anchored properly. It needs to be supported from below with a suitable arrangement of jacks while it is curing initially, which can only be removed after a certain amount of time, it needs to be kept damp for several days to ensure proper curing without cracking, etc.

Another alternative might be to do a "beam and block" ceiling there, then put concrete on top of that.

- Would it make a huge impact to leave only a 10cm air gap between CR and VB while keeping the 20cm airgap for the rest?

It would make a difference to the isolation between those two rooms, yes, but not to isolation between those rooms and the outside world. However, if all the walls are brick, then the difference doesn't really matter. The weakest points will be the doors, windows and HVAC system, not the walls.

Would you do any pre-work to set it ready to isolate it in the future? (Other than cabling)

Render (plaster / seal / paint) all the walls and the ceiling at the same time you do that for the other rooms, and also put all your HVAC ducts in place.

Control room design coming soon.

looking forward to seeing that!

every wall in the image there is conected to the roof and to the actual drywall ceilling (250cm height... right where the walls end)

Those are all parts of the outer-leaf, so that's not a problem.

I'm guessing our walls with a "tosco" brick place on his right side could be around 200kg per square meter

Masonry in general has a density of roughly 2300 kg/m3, give or take a couple of hundred. So just use that and measure the thickness to get your ballpark figure for the surface density. If your walls are 12cm thick, then the surface density would be about 276 kg/m2. (That considers typical mortar and rendering).

could end being around 270kg/m2. Those are the walls listed as "20cm"

More like 460 kg/m2.

c.- The inner walls as "9cm" (green line on Nico's drawing) are "toscos" again... bricks that would sat on their side instead of their bottom... with their holes fully (or maybe "fooly") plastered to make them solid... around 170kg/m2

Less, because you would never be able to completely fill the holes. Also, you would not be able to put any load on that wall: no ceiling. You can't build a structural wall with bricks laid on edge. Why would you even want to do that? I don't understand the reasoning behind that, it's unsafe, and I'm pretty sure it would not pass inspection as a load-bearing wall.

d.- The "16cm" wall is a cinder block wall... I have read somewhere... maybe in this forum, in a thread of a french studio in a farm... that this kind of walls could be around 280kg/m2 but maybe I'm mistaking the source and the data

Less. Around 190 kg/m2. Cinder block is lighter than brick or concrete.

e.- the drywalls in Nico's drawing might be around 30 to 35kg/m2... depending on their thickness... wouldn't they?... 30kg/m2 for a 3,4cm wall made up of three layers of drywall?... and 35Kg for a 3,8cm drywall in several layers?...

5/8" (16mm) Drywall weighs about 11kg/m2. So assuming you are planning on using 16mm fire-rated drywall, yes, your assumptions here are correct.

- Stuart -

[Silvestre]

Thank you, Stuart, for all the data you're providing here.

As I told you, maybe we wrote too fast coming with a new design, in an attempt to avoid the three leaves... but It's likely we'll abbandon that idea

You should remember that a brickwall is the visible wall inside the garage, but in the living room side the room was finished with an air gap + drywall screwed to the so called frame...

Just to be 100% certain: So your plan now is to replace that frame with a second brick wall, right next to the original wall, and fully touching it?

The plan is to keep the frame in its place and build a brick wall fully touching the existing wall... then, the frame will become embeded in the wall letting us open the door and visor gaps on that wall... taking the necessary precautions to open a gap in a wall... a beam on the upper side of the gap, resting in the wall on the sides of the gap...

As i said before, I think the idea of cutting the wall becomes useless to get a two leaves system as long as the wall between the living room and the garage touches the roof anyway... cutting the wall won't isolate parts of that wall from the outer leaf

c.- The inner walls as "9cm" (green line on Nico's drawing) are "toscos" again... bricks that would sat on their side instead of their bottom... with their holes fully (or maybe "fooly") plastered to make them solid... around 170kg/m2

Less, because you would never be able to completely fill the holes. Also, you would not be able to put any load on that wall: no ceiling. You can't build a structural wall with bricks laid on edge. Why would you even want to do that? I don't understand the reasoning behind that, it's unsafe, and I'm pretty sure it would not pass inspection as a load-bearing wall.

It's true... those "tosco" bricks shouldn't be laid on their edge... I got caught in the trap of reading measurements on that drawing and translate them to brick dimensions and orientation... without thinking too further... that was not an option we have discussed before... inner walls width supposed to be the width of a brick placed the normal way to build a wall (11cm), plus the additional with of the mortar to plaster the brick... around 12cm...

Written right beside the green line should say 12cm.

As for the weight of the solid brick, we have make a test... maybe we should repeat the measurements... we have weighted a brick as it comes from the factory (1.8kg), and then we have weighted it after we have filled it with mortar and after it had dried inside giving approximately a solid brick... it weighted 3.4kg after that

When we laid bricks on their edge we do it only to stick them to an existing wall without leaving a gap... almost nailing them... So in that case, we are using around 25 bricks (that would be more than 40kg) per square meter, plus 100kg of sand and 20kg of cement... I don't take water into account... so that should give 150kg/m2 at least... but surely more... I prefer being stingy with the density of walls, not to be over optimistic about the isolation provided... we're not professional builders and we don't need to get profit on building... just good results... so stingy predictions of results seem right in this particular case (wall mass)

I'd like to think you were right when you said this, a few posts before:

The result is a thicker single leaf wall with an extra mass of around 170kg/m2

How thick is the brick? To get a surface density of 170 kg/m3, it must be only about 75mm thick. Is that correct? That seems rather thin for a brick wall...

Here are some images of the bricks literally drown in mortar, laid on their edge (7cm) and nailed to the previous 12cm brick wall... to give a 20cm brick wall... we are plastering the old bricks of the previous wall before sticking the bottom of the new brick to their surface... I don't know if I made myself clear in this text

Good night

[casaestudio]

Hello! It's been a month since our last post but we are still working. Silvestre and Marcio are back at work so I'm working by myself lately. Slowly but also constantly.

So, a recap: Due to budget issues I'm going to build the Live room first, leaving the CR and Vocal booth for later. I'll get the HVAC conducts, electricity and audio cabling done for CR and VB and, If budget allows it, I'll get the VB isolated too, but I'm FOCUSING ON THE LIVE ROOM and will leave the CR for the last room to build.

These are the technical specs of the design:

ELECTRIC: In addition to the setup of the house's electrical system I've added these independent new circuits for the studio.

1- Main Switch, 32A
2- Electric differential, 40A 30mA
3- HVAC: Cable section 2,5 mm 16A
4- Daw: Cable section 4 mm y protegerla con 16A.
5- Plugs: Cable section 2,5 mm 16A
6- Rack 1 & 2: Cable section 2,5 mm 16 A
7- Lightning: cable section 1,5 mm 10A
8- New and independent earthing (Star)

Electricity will get to each room in two surface mount distribution boxes (1 for lightning and 1 for plugs).
Plugs and lights will be surface mounted.

Comunications:
2 CAT6 RJ45 cables will get to each room. One end will go to PC/machine room and the other will go to CR.

AUDIO:
5x 8ch Mogami Snake from LR to CR (24 mic inputs + 8 spare + 8 headphone)
1x Spare tube for future upgrades.

HVAC consisting of
- Fujitsu ASY 35 UI LLCC for aircon. Split system reasonably silent
- S&P TD160/100 Silent http://www.solerpalau.com/td-160-100-n- ... v50hz.html for extraction.
- Probably S&P TD160/100 Silent for renovation.
- 4 DIY silencers (2 for intake, 2 for outake)

I haven't started building the inner leaf of the LR yet, just getting the outer leaf ready.

- We found a huge resonance under half of the tiled floor in the garage so we took the tiles off. We found they didn't use a lot of cement when they installed the tiles and they left many air gaps: that part of the floor was acting like a drum. We poured concrete there and now that issue is fixed.

- We are finishing rendering the brick walls and filling every minor crack we found on them.

- We have "transfered" the electrical installation of plugs and lightning in the garage to the brand new tools room we built right next to the garage.

- We have moved the gas heater to it's new location and now we are waiting for the official tech service to come and verify everything is running smoothly and safe. Gas is permanently off until then.

Next steps will be:
- To open the gap for the window between LR and CR. That will be hopefully done this coming week.
- Build the HVAC silencers and ducting.
- Preinstall the Aircon leaving the tubes ready.
- Drive the electric and audio cabling through the air gap of the walls. They'll go in different paths and won´t meet at any place.
- Paint the outer walls and ceilling with plastic paint.
- Install the door for the outer leaf.


Once I finish all that I'll move to the building stage. I hope that will be on the last weekend of october... I really need this room to be built and running ASAP...

I'll keep on with updates and sorry for not having the sketchup project ready yet. Too many things, so little time.

Since I have not yet decided wether to build the CR or not (budget, you know...) I was wondering if a little asymetrical CR woud be a major and dramatic inconvenience... because it looks it will have to stay asymetrical for another year or two at least. Any thoughts or comments on that?

Cheers and many thanks in advance.

[Soundman2020]

Due to budget issues I'm going to build the Live room first, leaving the CR and Vocal booth for later.

That's fine, but you still have to design the entire studio first! All three rooms, plus the isolation system, plus HVAC and electrical. All of that MUST be fully designed before you start building any of it. If not, the I guarantee that you will run into serious problems later, when you find that doors, windows or HVAC ducts are in the wrong place, or your sight lines are lousy, or you can't pur the treatment you need where it needs to go, or some other major problem.

Design the complete studio, with everything in place, and only then start building.

I know that you already have a simplified plan-view rough sketch on paper, but that's not complete enough. A "studio design" implies a full 3D model, with everything in place, so that you can check for issues such as the above: sight lines, conflicts, or even simple issues such as which way a door should open to provide the best access path, or to avoid banging into the desk, sofa, drum kit, or another door...

I really need this room to be built and running ASAP...

You've probably seen me say this before, but rushing a studio build is a recipe for disaster. Don't rush. First design, in full detail, then build.

I was wondering if a little asymetrical CR woud be a major and dramatic inconvenience...

Depends where the asymmetrical part is, and how bad it is. If it is at the back of the room, far behind the mix position, then that's probably fine, and likely won't be a problem. But if it is in the front of the room, from the mix position forwards, then that's a problem. Also, if it is just a few mm difference, then that's likely not a problem, but if it is a couple of cm or more, then yes, that's a problem.

Think of it this way: the wavelength of a 20,000 Hz tone is about 1.7cm. The half-wave is a bit more than 8mm. The quarter-wave is slightly over 4mm. So if your speakers are 8mm out of symmetrical, you'd have phase cancellation and comb filtering. So you think: "Well, yeah, but that's 20k! Nobody hears that high anyway! And nobody builds rooms to 4mm accuracy!" (actually, I do, but that's me...). So consider 1 kHz, right in the middle of the mid-range: wavelength is 34 cm, half wave is 17 cm, quarter wave is 8.5cm If your room is out of symmetrical by 8cm, then you'll be having phasing issues in the entire upper mid range, and all of the highs. So if the left speaker is just 8cm further back than the right speaker, or 8cm off to one side, or the ceiling dips 8cm lower on the right, then you will have problems in one entire half of the musical spectrum.

Symmetry is important.

- Stuart -

[casaestudio]

That's fine, but you still have to design the entire studio first!

Yep, I know. I really take your words into consideration. It's a pitty I had never used SketchUp before starting this project but I got to it this weekend at last. I'm learning veeeery slowly but I think I'll get there eventually. I'll try to set the basic layout early this week so I can share the sketchup file.

Anyways, as you advised before, my intention is to start building once the complete design is done. In the past weeks I've been working on details such as HVAC, electricity and doors and have been sketching some other CR layouts as well. I'm Reading a lot in the little times I get. That's why I asked about the asymetrical CR, I need to have that design clear before I move on.

This is one of the alternate sketches I've done as for the whole studio. It only shows the isolation leafs and the doors would be sliding glass doors. In the CR it's also drawn the frieze, leaving the gaps where some acoustic treatment would be applied. The PC room is not drawn yet. Note I added an Iso booth inside the live room; makes the live room smaller but I think it would be very much used here if implemented. But again, I have the feeling that after the acoustic treatment is set, the room will end up being too small. Maybe I could build a smaller Iso... or forget about it? ... What do you think?

WhatsApp Image 2016-10-24 at 1.09.01 AM.jpeg

The dimesions would be about 2.35m x 4.15m x 3.68 As you see, the asymetrical issue wouldn´t be very severe in this case... I think.

This is the other layout I´m considering. The asymetrical issue in the CR is somewhat bigger here, so is the room itself. There are so many things to take into consideration: The windows locations for each option will have a whole different effect, for example... A bigger CR would provide more confort when mixing with the band or tracking from the CR... so many things.

WhatsApp Image 2016-10-24 at 1.47.24 AM.jpeg

I'm not in a crazy hurry and I don't want to rush now, but one of the use I do of the place is as a practice room for a few bands... Not having the LR ready stands as a little hole in my pocket wich I'd like to mend quickly. That's why my intention is to get HVAC, electrics and audio/video lines planned, even if the control room and vocal booth's treatment is not defined, and get to work. I'm aware, though, the room plans/shape need to be carefully defined and refined. That's my path.

Thanks again and big hugs!

[casaestudio]

Ok, Now I'm feeling more confortable working with sketchUp. Great!
I'll be working on it some more during next weekend. I have my daughter sick at home and a few stuff I need to take care of urgently, but I hope I can really move on fast because every hour I spend with SketchUp speed up my workflow a lot.

I want to leave here two SketchUp project files in case you want to check them out. Still trying to find the best layout for the CR...

Thanks!

[casaestudio]

In recent days I have been designing in SketchUp. So far I've taken care of both, inner and outer, leafs.

casaestudio LEAFS and DOORS C small.jpg

casaestudio LEAFS and DOORS A small.jpg

I know next will be boring to some but I think it is worth it to make some comments on some points:
DOORS (meassures are subject to slight changes)
CR to VB (200cm x 110cm): practicable glass (8mm+8mm) double door, opening the first door to the right. You reach that door only on the left side of the CR.
VB to CR (200cm x 110cm): practicable glass (6mm + 6mm) double door with opening the first door to the left.

CR to LR (208cm x 206cm): Slide glass (10mm + 10mm) door.
LR to CR (228cm x 206cm): Slide glass (8mm + 8mm) door.

CR to HALL (202cm x 70cm): Normal door, reinforced and adapted.
HALL to CR (207cm x 70cm: Normal door, reinforced and adapted.

CR to Additional Living room (in the back of the CR) (197cm x 178cm): slide glass (8mm +8mm) door.
Additional Living room to CR (200cm x 180cm): Slide glass (6mm + 6mm) door.

LR (loading/unloading door) to storage room (200cm x 90cm): Glass (8mm+8mm) door
Storage Room to LR (200cm x 90cm): practicable glass (6mm + 6mm) double door with opening the first door to the left.
Storage room to outside: Normal door, reinforced and adapted if needed.

casaestudio LEAFS and DOORS B small.jpg

You have probably noticed the two “internal” sliding doors in the control room, one on the left side and one double door on the back. I thought that would be a neat solution to simetry issues when mixing. These back doors could be treated with diffusers with absorbtion on their back while the side door would be treated as needed.

There is an alternative (attached) in which the internal slide door on the left would be removed and the inner wall leaf would run all long closing that side. May be this is a better solution. Maybe I could even use that airlock as an ampbooth some time… ☺

casaestudio CR entrance alt small.jpg

I´m gonna be throwing the cabling in sketchup next. I´ve come out with a lot of wiring including mic lines, tie lines, video, rj45, bnc... If you want me to I can drop down the list of the wiring design in here.
As soon I get done with the cabling I´ll try to draw the HVAC layout.

… And, in the meantime… I keep on finishing the outer walls rendering, plastering, painting.

Stuart and mods, maybe this threat should be moved tu studio design?

Any suggestion or comment is welcome!

[Soundman2020]

I'm not sure I understand that at all!!!

You seem to have three-leaf walls in some locations, two-leaf in others, and coupled two-leaf in yet others... you are wasting a lot of space with those strange and unnecessarilyy angled walls (for no acoustic benefit), and instead of using the rear corners for the major bass trapping that you will need, you have cut them off completely! You also see to be attempting to do an RFZ style room, but the angles are rather wrong for that, so I guess you didn't do any ray-tracing there yet, and were planning to adjust the angles and dimensions later? Or maybe it isn't going to be an RFZ room?

It also appears that you intend to soffit mount your speakers, but the soffits are way too shallow and very incomplete, so I'm not sure if that was your intention or not?

As soon I get done with the cabling I´ll try to draw the HVAC layout.

I normally leave the cabling until last. It's fairly simple to do, and needs to fit in around all the rest of the design anyway. So I'd suggest that you should not wast time on that right now.

HVAC you sill certainly need to spend a lot of time on, but first you need to ensure that your overall plan for the entire studio is complete in all other senses.


- Stuart -

[casaestudio]

I'm not sure I understand that at all!!!

jajaja!! Learning sketchup is being quite a ride for me!

You seem to have three-leaf walls in some locations, two-leaf in others, and coupled two-leaf in yet others...

casaestudio control LEAFS explain questions small.jpg

RED: Walls I cannot remove. The thick ones are brickwalls to the outside except the wall between the CR and LR and the one between the LR and the Storage Room. The thin are made of drywall.

YELLOW: Thats part of the inner wall in the CR. I have to choose wether to stick it somehow to the brickwall to keep the 2 leafs or to decouple it completely and leave an airgap in between the brickwall and the CR inner wall; that way we would have three leafs in that part. What do you think is the best way to go? I know the outer leaf from the CR will have a structural conection with the inner leaf but that is something I have to deal with.

BLUE: That´s 2 leafs all the way until the yellow.

you are wasting a lot of space with those strange and unnecessarilyy angled walls (for no acoustic benefit), and instead of using the rear corners for the major bass trapping that you will need, you have cut them off completely!

Ok. Let me explain, I might be going in a completely wrong direction here. I'm dealing with three options. My idea in this option is to build an empty frame, inside the insulated CR, that would be filled with mineral wool to get the absortion and bass trapping needed. I would place some diffusion elements also. I've thought many parts of the frame would be "friezed" with wood. Maybe I'm just wrong with the actual size of the space allocated for that... or I might be totally mislead on the approach. That takes me to the next thing to take into consideration.

Initial room shape and "yellow" wall: Because that brickwall right next to the yellow wall cannot be changed in any manner, I have tried to adjust the shape of the CR so that the side walls get an angle opening to the back. Anyways, as you see, this way the inner wall's shape is completely asymetrical... I thought I could "frieze" up the front of the CR and help bringing back the balance in the room... but I guess the room would be too asymetrical to work it out easily.
The other two options are 1. to place the CR facing the VB completely and 2. to face it towards the LR, both options looking for simetry on the walls.

You also see to be attempting to do an RFZ style room

Yes, I'm looking for a RFZ design and want to keep the CR as big as I can. In this SketchUp project I'm looking for the layout of the whole studio in order to place the cabling and HVAC installations right... But first I'm testing the 2 sketches I attached a few days ago to see what matches my needs best. So for now, no, I haven't done any angle calculation nor ray-tracing. I know I should have but I'm trying to learn all this sketchUp thing on the go and you can get fuzzy sometimes...

It also appears that you intend to soffit mount your speakers, but the soffits are way too shallow and very incomplete, so I'm not sure if that was your intention or not?

Yep, sure I'd like to soffit my BM6A. Again, these plans just represent suggested envelopes and framing, not the actual "way to go" for the project in things like soffits or acoustic treatment.

I normally leave the cabling until last. It's fairly simple to do, and needs to fit in around all the rest of the design anyway. So I'd suggest that you should not wast time on that right now.

I thought that if I come out with an actual rough layout of the whole studio, specially the CR, I could plan all the cabling. You know, the building of the CR will have to wait and I need to start with the Live Room first... and soon. Again, I'm not a rusher, but that is a pusher. Still, I'm on it to plan everything right and take as little risks as possible.

Thanks for not letting me down.

Niko

[Soundman2020]

I think I didn't explain very well what I was trying to show you, so I'll do it in pictures instead:

casaestudio-mulit-leaf.jpg

casaestudio-wasted.jpg

YELLOW: Thats part of the inner wall in the CR ... I have to choose wether to stick it somehow to the brickwall to keep the 2 leafs

What purpose would that serve? Do you mean just for decoration? Is there something wrong with the wall the way it is that prevents you from plastering it and painting it?

decouple it completely and leave an airgap in between the brickwall and the CR inner wall; that way we would have three leafs in that part.

Right. Sometimes you have no choice, and have to have a 3-leaf wall in some places. When that happens, you simply need to compensate for the lost isolation and higher resonant frequency, by adding mass and increasing the air gaps by hte correct amount, until you get the resonant frequency back where you need it to be, and have enough isolation to meet your needs.

I know the outer leaf from the CR will have a structural conection with the inner leaf but that is something I have to deal with.

Why? For what reason do you need to connect those two leaves? I don't see it.... I can't see any reason at all why your inner-leaf cannot be fully decoupled from the outer leaf, and also from the "middle" leaf for that part where you have no choice.

BLUE: That´s 2 leafs all the way until the yellow.

But your diagram is not complete! You are not showing the final inner-leaf for the control room that you already showed on the diagram in your previous post. When you add that leaf, then you end up with three-leaves....

My idea in this option is to build an empty frame, inside the insulated CR, that would be filled with mineral wool to get the absortion and bass trapping needed.

Why go to all that trouble, when it provides no isolation, and still leaves your room non-symmetric?

The most important thing you need to do is to FIRST create the isolation shell which makes your room 100% symmetric (at least for the front part). That's your inner-leaf. THEN you add the acoustic treatment on that inner-leaf, to get the acoustic response that the control room needs.

or I might be totally mislead on the approach.

yep!

as you see, this way the inner wall's shape is completely asymetrical

Right! And that's the problem. Your inner-leaf CANNOT be asymmetrical. It defines the shape and therefore the acoustics of the room. The inner leaf is the acoustic boundary for isolation, and is the starting point for treatment.

The other two options are 1. to place the CR facing the VB completely and 2. to face it towards the LR, both options looking for simetry on the walls.

There's nothing wrong with the orientation of the room: you just need to correct the angle slightly, and design a suitable inner-leaf wall that makes it symmetrical, does not waste space, and provides the base for acoustic treatment.

Yes, I'm looking for a RFZ design and want to keep the CR as big as I can.

You have the approximate basic shape, to a certain extent, but you need to do make the soffits deep enough to mount the speakers that you plan to use, then do the ray-tracing to confirm that you really are creating an RFZ around the mix position.

In this SketchUp project I'm looking for the layout of the whole studio in order to place the cabling and HVAC installations right...

Then how come I don't see any HVAC in there?

My normal approach is to first get the layout and acoustics optimal, then try to fit the HVAC into that. If the HVAC won't fit (generally, it doesn't), then I modify the design until it does fit. Trying to start with the HVAC first will lead to compromises that you don't need to make. It's a studio, so isolation and acoustics take first preference. Then HVAC comes in second, and finally cabling can be fitted around that.

So for now, no, I haven't done any angle calculation nor ray-tracing.

Hmmmm.... That's what you should be doing around about now! As soon as you have the basic isolation shell roughed in, the very next step is to get your soffits designed, then adjust / add / move / angle walls until you do have a proper RFZ. Then add HVAC, and re-adjust as needed.

Yep, sure I'd like to soffit my BM6A.

If you want a true RFZ design, then you definitely need to soffit mount! And your BM6a's will work rather well for that...

Again, these plans just represent suggested envelopes and framing, not the actual "way to go" for the project in things like soffits or acoustic treatment.

It all goes together.... The soffits need extensive framing, and all of the inner-leaf framing (including the soffits) needs to be done with three things in mind: 1) Isolation, 2) RFZ. 3) Acoustics. You sort of have to do all three at once.

I need to start with the Live Room first...

But you still have your LR walls angled, unnecessarily... wasted space ... no acoustic advantage ...


- Stuart -

[casaestudio]

sorry, uncomplete post. Finishing now.

[casaestudio]

I think I didn't explain very well what I was trying to show you, so I'll do it in pictures instead

Thanks a lot! I think I got spinned up these last days and overwrote many concepts I thought I had clear and settled. For sure, lack of experience in this areas got me. Back on track! Thanks for your patience.

Got the two, simetrical and asymetrical, options drawn in sketchup and I would like to ask if you'd be so kind to check if you think I'm missing something.

SIMETRICAL

casaestudio RZF simetrica.jpg

ASYMETRICAL

casaestudio RZF asimetrica small.jpg

The room dimensions would be 240cm (H) x 336cm (W) x 456cm (L)
I'm 197cm tall, so I set the listening ear's hight to 125cm, not 120cm as the standard. Not too bad for anybody else and quite good for me.
The soffit walls are 23,8º.
The mixing position is set to 38% of the length of the room, from the front wall.

What purpose would that serve? Do you mean just for decoration? Is there something wrong with the wall the way it is that prevents you from plastering it and painting it?

The wall itself is not lined up with the CR floor because there is a gap of about 5cm until the floor starts. The floor of the CR is in a different slab than the LR. Besides, I was thinking on the closing between the ceiling and the wall, which I think would be nicer to execute and seal with drywall so it's tight to the ceiling.

Sometimes you have no choice, and have to have a 3-leaf wall in some places. When that happens, you simply need to compensate for the lost isolation and higher resonant frequency, by adding mass and increasing the air gaps by hte correct amount, until you get the resonant frequency back where you need it to be, and have enough isolation to meet your needs.

How would you do that? I could narrow the airgap on the other side so I make that gap wider.

Why? For what reason do you need to connect those two leaves? I don't see it.... I can't see any reason at all why your inner-leaf cannot be fully decoupled from the outer leaf, and also from the "middle" leaf for that part where you have no choice.

I see, I'll go for three leaves and avoid that problem.

But your diagram is not complete! You are not showing the final inner-leaf for the control room that you already showed on the diagram in your previous post. When you add that leaf, then you end up with three-leaves...

That was not meant to be a leaf, just the enclossure for treatment... for a badly approached treatment.

Then how come I don't see any HVAC in there?

Because I'm dealing with the approximation of a CR shape.

As for the Raytracing... how can I calculate the direction of the 1st and 2nd reflections?. Also, how can I calculate the three directions used to represent the sound coming right out of the speaker? is it 45º, 90º and 135º?

Big hug

Niko