Help with New Build Exterior Structure

[johnyclash]

I can't believe I hadn't heard of this forum sooner. Hello world!

My wife and I are moving to a new place and have been talking and planning a build for years. She's pushing for this to happen quickly (shes awesome).

We are able and plan to build a "soundproof" 16x25ft structure. We are in a residential area in the Northwest US. I believe ceiling height around 9 ft. Not sure of ceiling plans but like the pitched roof to avoid claustrophobia.

Primary objective is a creative space for myself, a low wattage guitar playing musician and producer, audio engineer etc. I plan to record and mix music mostly as an overdub studio and small ensemble recording. would love to practice with a small pair of 12 inch powered monitors and of course use my recording setup without worrying about music escaping to my neighbors or my house. Bonus would be to use this as a rehearsal space for 4 musicians at a good volume while tracking.

Ive read Rod Gervais' book focused on the building part so far. Walls, Foundation etc. I've read about this for years but still unsure on whats possible and the budget.

Either way, whether this is a serious studio, and the level of soundproofing - this structure is going up (per loving wife) - and we're meeting the designer this Friday - in 2 days. A contractor will build this but they're cool with me doing any work which my friends who have building experience and myself would like to do.

I would like to do whatever possible to make this realistically soundproofed and i feel if i follow a lot of basic steps, with a bit more budget I could get the soundproofing go much further.

We have a budget ideally at 15 but could squeeze in 10 more - so 25k. Any money saved will go into equipment and practice time on my craft - so - I want to do it best i can without going crazy.

Can I do this from the ground up and expect a certain level of isolation?

Here's my thought. Building a slab. and using Gervais wall construction suggestions (per book) - I'm still unsure of ceiling and roof. windows -would be nice but what can i expect. I suspect expensive. I'm thinking a single room to max space.

Basically I'm using a contractor and designer who will have some clue as to isolation and soundproofing but not at the level to get the details right. So, I need to be able to discuss with him and have him on the sAme page to do this right.

EDIT - I also have thought about building the structure and doing the soundproofing separately - at least i would have a place to hangout and play at normal volumes since I won't have a music space till this is built. Would this be a good idea and help distribute the budget and have more time to plan etc...

Am I on the right path? Thanks for reading and I'm grateful for your help..

-Johny

[Soundman2020]

Hi Johny, and Welcome! Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things!

We are able and plan to build a "soundproof" 16x25ft structure.

Will this be a "ground up" build? In other words, starting from a bare patch of dirt out in the open?

I believe ceiling height around 9 ft. Not sure of ceiling plans but like the pitched roof to avoid claustrophobia.

Most houses have 8 foot ceilings these days, so a studio with a 9 foot ceiling would be considerably less claustrophobic than a typical house room, even if it is not gabled. Doing a gabled ceiling in a studio is costly and complex. It can be done, if you have a well padded budget, but probably isn't needed if the ceiling would be 9' anyway. Acoustically, 9' is pretty decent.

Primary objective is a creative space for myself, a low wattage guitar playing musician and producer, audio engineer etc. I plan to record and mix music mostly as an overdub studio and small ensemble recording

So it will be a one-room studio? Where the single room has to be both a control room for accurate mixing and also a live room for good tracking / rehearsing? That can be done, but you compromise on both. A control room (mixing) must have tightly controlled neutral acoustics, but that's not a nice environment for tracking or jamming. A live room (as the name implies) must have live acoustics: warm, zippy, good vibe, etc. But that's not a good environment for mixing, because it "colours" the sound in ways that you don't want for a mixing environment. That's why most studios have at least two rooms: A control room with good control room acoustics, and a live room with good live room acoustics. For a single-room studio, I would suggest that you make much of the acoustic treatment variable, so you can modify the sound as needed for those two different situations. Many of the panels would have parts that slide, flip, rotate, or open and close to change the room acoustics. That can be done, but is rather complex and expensive.

we're meeting the designer this Friday - in 2 days.

A studio designer, I assume? If not, then you are already on the wrong path. Architects have very little idea about designing studios. They do get some training in acoustics during their university classes, but very little. Way too little. And that "little" is mostly about large room acoustics, not the highly specialized acoustics of tracking rooms and control rooms.

Your very first question when you meet with the designer tomorrow should be to ask if he is familiar with BS.1116-2, and will design your room to meet that. If he says "never heard of it" or something similar, then the meeting should be over right there. Don't waste your time (or his) any further. If he says "yes", ask what floor area he would suggest for your room, as the minimum acceptable under that standard. If he says anything less than 215 ft2, then the meeting should likewise stop right there. (That doesn't mean that you can't have a smaller control room! You can. It's just to check his knowledge of that standard, which does indeed set a minimum floor area. It's to check if he really does know the standard, or if he is just bluffing).

We have a budget ideally at 15 but could squeeze in 10 more - so 25k.

You want a 16x25 foot building. That's 400 ft2. Construction costs in the USA today seem to be running at around US$ 100 - 150 / ft2 in most places these days, so an out-building that size would cost around US$ 45k. You could knock of maybe 10k if you provide a large chunk of the labor yourself, but I don't see it being possible to get below that. I would suggest that you increase your budget substantially.

Can I do this from the ground up and expect a certain level of isolation?

Yes you can. Absolutely. You can expect whatever level of isolation you want from a ground-up build. The level of isolation is limited only by your budget. The more isolation you want, the more expensive it gets, and the cost rises exponentially with respect to isolation. A normal house gets about 30 dB of isolation, with luck. Getting 40 dB means that you have to block ten times as much sound. Getting 50 dB means you have to block 100 times as much sound. 60 dB means blocking 1,000 times as much sound. 70 dB means blocking 10,000 times as much. The decibel scale is logarithmic, so each increase of 10 dB is an increase of ten times the sound intensity. The practical limit for typical home studio construction is about 70 dB of isolation, but that's really, REALLY expensive and really hard to do. You can go higher, but then you need more exotic building materials and techniques that are out of reach of the typical budget for a home studio. 60 dB of isolation is a more realistic goal. Most home studios aim for about 50 dB, and the majority achieve that, if the studio is carefully designed according to the principles of studio design, and the place is correctly built using the principles of studio construction (which are very, very different from the principles of normal house construction).

So your first priority should be to come up with a number that represents the amount of isolation you need, expressed in decibels. Based on that, you cn decide on the techniques and materials that you will need in order to get that level of isolation.

Here's my thought. Building a slab. and using Gervais wall construction suggestions (per book) - I'm still unsure of ceiling and roof. windows -would be nice but what can i expect.

If you carefully follow Rod's guidelines in all aspects, you could expect upwards of 50 dB isolation.

Basically I'm using a contractor and designer who will have some clue as to isolation and soundproofing

If they talk about "soundproofing", then you are talking to the wrong people. Most studio designers and acousticians don't talk about "soundproofing", since it just isn't possible. Any sufficiently loud sound will penetrate any conceivable barrier, so it is impossible to "soundproof" a structure. All you can do is isolate it to a certain level.

Having "some clue" about how to build a studio is about the same as having "some clue" about performing open-heart surgery. My dad was a doctor, and my daughter is a doctor, so I do in fact have "some clue" about how to do that, but would you trust me to perform open heart surgery on you, knowing that my only medical qualification is that some family members are doctors? By the same token: should you allow a couple of guys who have "some clue" about building a studio to design and construct yours? Just because one is a qualified architect and the other is a certified building contractor, and they both can use the word "sound proofing", does make them suitable to design and build a studio. Do you really want to hand over bundles of cash to people who are in roughly the right industry, and have heard a little bit about studios, and trust they will get it right? Would you hand over bundles of cash to a vet who normally treats hamsters and cats, and let him do brain surgery on you, just because he's in roughly the right medical industry and has heard about brain surgery?

who will have some clue as to isolation and soundproofing but not at the level to get the details right.

"I think I'll get my appendix removed by this nutritionist I know, who has some clue about human anatomy, but not at the level to get the details right." ... 'Nuf said...

I also have thought about building the structure and doing the soundproofing separately -

that simply is not possible. "soundproofing" is not something that you add on to a building later: it is inherent in the actual structure. In order for the building to be "soundproof", the walls have to be designed and built in a certain specific way, using specific building materials and specific techniques. Ditto for the ceiling, floor, roof, windows, doors HVAC, electrical system, etc... Everything has to be designed from the beginning with a specific level of acoustic isolation in mind. You cannot do that after the building is already up! You would have to take it apart again and modify the basic structure, then put it back together.

That's sort of like saying: "I also have thought about buying my car now then designing the engine and transmission separately"...

Would this be a good idea and help distribute the budget and have more time to plan etc...

Nope! Not unless the entire place is designed correctly first! You can indeed build it in stages, but the complete design must be correct before you start. For example, if you decide to have both a control room and a live room in there, then you could just build the shell and the live room to start, then build the control room later as funds permit.

- Stuart -

[johnyclash]

Hi Johny, and Welcome! Please read the forum rules for posting (click here). You seem to be missing a couple of things!

Thanks for the welcome. I did read but figured I'd leave something out

We are able and plan to build a "soundproof" 16x25ft structure.

Will this be a "ground up" build? In other words, starting from a bare patch of dirt out in the open?

Yes it will be from the ground up.

I believe ceiling height around 9 ft. Not sure of ceiling plans but like the pitched roof to avoid claustrophobia.

Most houses have 8 foot ceilings these days, so a studio with a 9 foot ceiling would be considerably less claustrophobic than a typical house room, even if it is not gabled. Doing a gabled ceiling in a studio is costly and complex. It can be done, if you have a well padded budget, but probably isn't needed if the ceiling would be 9' anyway. Acoustically, 9' is pretty decent.

Primary objective is a creative space for myself, a low wattage guitar playing musician and producer, audio engineer etc. I plan to record and mix music mostly as an overdub studio and small ensemble recording

So it will be a one-room studio? Where the single room has to be both a control room for accurate mixing and also a live room for good tracking / rehearsing? That can be done, but you compromise on both. A control room (mixing) must have tightly controlled neutral acoustics, but that's not a nice environment for tracking or jamming. A live room (as the name implies) must have live acoustics: warm, zippy, good vibe, etc. But that's not a good environment for mixing, because it "colours" the sound in ways that you don't want for a mixing environment. That's why most studios have at least two rooms: A control room with good control room acoustics, and a live room with good live room acoustics. For a single-room studio, I would suggest that you make much of the acoustic treatment variable, so you can modify the sound as needed for those two different situations. Many of the panels would have parts that slide, flip, rotate, or open and close to change the room acoustics. That can be done, but is rather complex and expensive.

My thought was that it would be a creative space where I could record/rehearse and mix in. Serious mixes will be done elsewhere but my chops are pretty good and would love to take on more mix work. My thought about a single room was it would 1. Be cheaper 2. I mostly work on what I like and people I dig and I like being in the same space. Obviously the need for a separate mix space would be awesome and the benefits of hearing the monitors is great. But the costs would be my main concern. Would it be much cheaper to have a single space?

My thought for 2 rooms was 2 seperate Slabs for isolation purposes and 2 buildings basically. Just not sure if it's in my budget.

we're meeting the designer this Friday - in 2 days.

A studio designer, I assume? If not, then you are already on the wrong path. Architects have very little idea about designing studios. They do get some training in acoustics during their university classes, but very little. Way too little. And that "little" is mostly about large room acoustics, not the highly specialized acoustics of tracking rooms and control rooms.

Your very first question when you meet with the designer tomorrow should be to ask if he is familiar with BS.1116-2, and will design your room to meet that. If he says "never heard of it" or something similar, then the meeting should be over right there. Don't waste your time (or his) any further. If he says "yes", ask what floor area he would suggest for your room, as the minimum acceptable under that standard. If he says anything less than 215 ft2, then the meeting should likewise stop right there. (That doesn't mean that you can't have a smaller control room! You can. It's just to check his knowledge of that standard, which does indeed set a minimum floor area. It's to check if he really does know the standard, or if he is just bluffing).

We met with the designers and as predicted they know nothing about it. They are the higher end of guys in my area and quoted pretty high. Without soundproofing. 60-100k. Seems a bit on the high end. But a good experience nonetheless.

We have a budget ideally at 15 but could squeeze in 10 more - so 25k.

You want a 16x25 foot building. That's 400 ft2. Construction costs in the USA today seem to be running at around US$ 100 - 150 / ft2 in most places these days, so an out-building that size would cost around US$ 45k. You could knock of maybe 10k if you provide a large chunk of the labor yourself, but I don't see it being possible to get below that. I would suggest that you increase your budget substantially.

my wife wants this structure. Of course I'm worried about not having enough isolation. Is there a compromise? What can I build where I will get a descent amount of isolation although it may not be ideal? I have some other contractors that I'm pretty sure can get it done at a lower cost since we're doing a couple of projects around the house.

Can I do this from the ground up and expect a certain level of isolation?

Yes you can. Absolutely. You can expect whatever level of isolation you want from a ground-up build. The level of isolation is limited only by your budget. The more isolation you want, the more expensive it gets, and the cost rises exponentially with respect to isolation. A normal house gets about 30 dB of isolation, with luck. Getting 40 dB means that you have to block ten times as much sound. Getting 50 dB means you have to block 100 times as much sound. 60 dB means blocking 1,000 times as much sound. 70 dB means blocking 10,000 times as much. The decibel scale is logarithmic, so each increase of 10 dB is an increase of ten times the sound intensity. The practical limit for typical home studio construction is about 70 dB of isolation, but that's really, REALLY expensive and really hard to do. You can go higher, but then you need more exotic building materials and techniques that are out of reach of the typical budget for a home studio. 60 dB of isolation is a more realistic goal. Most home studios aim for about 50 dB, and the majority achieve that, if the studio is carefully designed according to the principles of studio design, and the place is correctly built using the principles of studio construction (which are very, very different from the principles of normal house construction).

Noted. I suppose the best I can get with my budget.

So your first priority should be to come up with a number that represents the amount of isolation you need, expressed in decibels. Based on that, you cn decide on the techniques and materials that you will need in order to get that level of isolation.

Again. Hard to say. Could you imagine a pair of 12 inch powered monitors and a 12 inch AC15 with music playback, vocals for rehearsing by myself. or a mix coming out of 8 inch monitors and maybe a low volume 10 in subwoofer? And then be able to not be super loud outside. Quiet enough to not bother the neighbors ? In a normal American subdivision?

Here's my thought. Building a slab. and using Gervais wall construction suggestions (per book) - I'm still unsure of ceiling and roof. windows -would be nice but what can i expect.

If you carefully follow Rod's guidelines in all aspects, you could expect upwards of 50 dB isolation.

Basically I'm using a contractor and designer who will have some clue as to isolation and soundproofing

If they talk about "soundproofing", then you are talking to the wrong people. Most studio designers and acousticians don't talk about "soundproofing", since it just isn't possible. Any sufficiently loud sound will penetrate any conceivable barrier, so it is impossible to "soundproof" a structure. All you can do is isolate it to a certain level.

Having "some clue" about how to build a studio is about the same as having "some clue" about performing open-heart surgery. My dad was a doctor, and my daughter is a doctor, so I do in fact have "some clue" about how to do that, but would you trust me to perform open heart surgery on you, knowing that my only medical qualification is that some family members are doctors? By the same token: should you allow a couple of guys who have "some clue" about building a studio to design and construct yours? Just because one is a qualified architect and the other is a certified building contractor, and they both can use the word "sound proofing", does make them suitable to design and build a studio. Do you really want to hand over bundles of cash to people who are in roughly the right industry, and have heard a little bit about studios, and trust they will get it right? Would you hand over bundles of cash to a vet who normally treats hamsters and cats, and let him do brain surgery on you, just because he's in roughly the right medical industry and has heard about brain surgery?

who will have some clue as to isolation and soundproofing but not at the level to get the details right.

"I think I'll get my appendix removed by this nutritionist I know, who has some clue about human anatomy, but not at the level to get the details right." ... 'Nuf said...

I also have thought about building the structure and doing the soundproofing separately -

that simply is not possible. "soundproofing" is not something that you add on to a building later: it is inherent in the actual structure. In order for the building to be "soundproof", the walls have to be designed and built in a certain specific way, using specific building materials and specific techniques. Ditto for the ceiling, floor, roof, windows, doors HVAC, electrical system, etc... Everything has to be designed from the beginning with a specific level of acoustic isolation in mind. You cannot do that after the building is already up! You would have to take it apart again and modify the basic structure, then put it back together.

That's sort of like saying: "I also have thought about buying my car now then designing the engine and transmission separately"...

Obviously I'm an idiot. Which is why I'm asking. But not quite. I'm asking if I could build the outside structure with isolation in mind and finish the inside over time. Then I could at least hang out in there and work at moderate volumes. You know, like I would in a bedroom or garage. And work on isolation with friends or research more and have someone do it.

Would this be a good idea and help distribute the budget and have more time to plan etc...

Nope! Not unless the entire place is designed correctly first! You can indeed build it in stages, but the complete design must be correct before you start. For example, if you decide to have both a control room and a live room in there, then you could just build the shell and the live room to start, then build the control room later as funds permit.

Yes. I agree. I would have the overall design laid out. Thanks for your time reading and responding thru this.

Although it won't be completely silent I would like to believe this is possible. Either way, the structure is getting built. Even if I store my gear in it and use it as a guest house where my gear sits. I will either try and isolate it or just have the contractors do the best they can. Hopefully there is a compromise.

[Soundman2020]

I did read but figured I'd leave something out

..: And you are still leaving it out! Better give it another read. Especially the part in large blue letters, about one third the way down the page...

Obviously the need for a separate mix space would be awesome and the benefits of hearing the monitors is great. But the costs would be my main concern. Would it be much cheaper to have a single space?

It would be a bit cheaper, yes, but there won't be a huge difference. A large chunk of your money will go into getting the slab poured, another large chunk into the HVAC system, another large chunk into the electrical system, and another large chunk into the exterior walls and the roof. That's where the bulk of it goes. The interior walls, ceilings, doors, windows, etc., also cost money, of course, but that's a smaller percentage of the total. I would suggest designing the studio for what you need it to do, then figuring out if there are ways to save money on doing that, to fit your budget.

Think of it this way: If you spend all that money and then it doesn't work very well for what you wanted, that would be rather disappointing.

One way to reduce the total cost might be to reduce the size a bit: most contractors figure their costs based on "per square foot of floor space", so reducing the number of square feet should reduce the total cost. Of course, you also have to be careful to not reduce it so much that it won't be any good acoustically!

My thought for 2 rooms was 2 seperate Slabs for isolation purposes and 2 buildings basically. Just not sure if it's in my budget.

That would be great if you could afford it, and if you need very high levels of isolation, but it isn't necessary for the majority of studios. A single monolithic slab for the entire studio is usually plenty good enough. It's hard to build walls good enough to reach the flanking limit of a good slab-on-grade floor.

We met with the designers and as predicted they know nothing about it. They are the higher end of guys in my area and quoted pretty high. Without soundproofing. 60-100k. Seems a bit on the high end. But a good experience nonetheless.

That does seem a bit high for just 400 ft2! That's in the range 150 to 250 per square foot! You could build a luxury house for that price. I could almost believe the 60k figure, but 100k stretches credibility. And the fact that they said that this price does not even "include soundproofing" makes me wonder.... a lot.... Soundproofing is not something that can be added on after the place is built: It is something that is designed into the basic structure. It does not necessarily increase the price by very much, either! It might add 10% to the total, but it certainly won't add an enormous percentage. Especially if they are already talking about US$ 250 / ft2!

Of course I'm worried about not having enough isolation. Is there a compromise? What can I build where I will get a descent amount of isolation although it may not be ideal?

This might not be the answer you are looking for, since it is a question, but here goes: What is a "descent amount of isolation"?. The problem is that you and I and your wife and the contractor and your neighbors and the cops might all have a different definition of what "decent isolation" means. You should really try to put a number on that. I can't plug in the words "decent isolation" to the equations that calculate isolation. I can only plug in a number like "45 dB of isolation".

What would be really good is for you to get a simple hand-held sound level meter and measure the actual level in a typical rehearsal scenario, and a typical mixing scenario, then also measure the level that you / your wife consider to be "acceptable". The difference between those two (adjusted for distance) is your goal for isolation. So for example, if you measure and find out that your typical rehearsal / tracking session runs at 100 dBC, and your wife says that a level of 50 dBC inside the house is acceptable, then you need 50 dB of isolation. After adjusting that for the distance between your studio and the house, you might find that a level of 45 dB would be enough.

However, you should also take into account your neighbors, and also the legal requirements: Your local municipality probably has a publication in their website that tells you what the legally acceptable level is, and how/where that should be measured (usually at the property line). You should take that into account as well, so that you don't end up with the cops knocking on the door!

Once you have that number, then I can help you figure out, realistically, what type of construction would get you to that number, so you can quote for that specific method and set of materials. If that works out too expensive, then I can point you to alternative methods/materials that meet your budget, and tell you how much lower that would be in terms of isolation, then you can decide what the best compromise is.

So there can be a compromise, yes, but it should be arrived at intelligently, based on real numbers, rather than just guessing.

I have some other contractors that I'm pretty sure can get it done at a lower cost

I would expect so! I'm a bit shocked by the prices these other guys gave you. I would still expect that the finally cost would be around 45k to 60k if you hire a contractor to do it all, or a bit less if you and your friends can do some of the work yourself.

Again. Hard to say. Could you imagine a pair of 12 inch powered monitors and a 12 inch AC15 with music playback, vocals for rehearsing by myself. or a mix coming out of 8 inch monitors and maybe a low volume 10 in subwoofer? And then be able to not be super loud outside. Quiet enough to not bother the neighbors ? In a normal American subdivision?

That's a lot of variables! Hard to put numbers on that... Typical mix levels are around 80 to 90 dBC, but that's a large range already. "Standard" calibration level for studios and cinemas is 85 dB, so we could assume that you'd be mixing at that level, roughly, but it's impossible to say how loud you'd be playing your AC15's: they can probably put out in excess of 105 dB, maybe more, but it all depends on where you have the volume control set! To be sure, you'd need to get out a meter and actually measure.

In a normal American subdivision, the legally acceptable level might be anywhere from 35 dBA to 60 dBA. 35 dB is ridiculously low, of course: just walking down the street quietly talking to the person next to you would already greatly exceed that, by 100 times, so there's no hope in hell for any musical instrument or amp! On the other hand, 60 dBA is too high: that's annoyingly loud for most people. Even worse, most municipal regulations have a tiny clause hidden away some place after all the numbers, that says something like "... or any other sound that is excessively loud or unpleasant", but with no definition of what "excessively loud" means, or how to measure "unpleasant". So basically you are screwed on that, no matter what level you produce.

Obviously I'm an idiot. Which is why I'm asking.

Not at all! I hope I didn't give you that impression. The only "idiot" is the one who doesn't ask, and doesn't look for compromises. You came to the forum, and asked intelligent questions, so by no means are you an idiot!

I'm asking if I could build the outside structure with isolation in mind and finish the inside over time.

Yes you can, but there are several "caveats" that you should take into account. This needs a bit of explaining, so bare with me...

The best way to get good isolation at low cost is to build what is known as a " fully-decoupled 2-leaf MSM structure". More commonly refereed to as a "room inside a room". Basically that means the you have the building shell (that is your "outer" room), and then inside of that you build the "real" room, which is your "inner" room. Together, they provide the isolation that you need. But this is a case where the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. If you have just the outer room ("outer leaf" in technical terms), then you don't get good isolation at all. And if you just have the inner room ("inner leaf" in technical terms) by itself, then you also get lousy isolation. It's only when you put them together that you get good isolation. The reason is not what most people think: people assume that you can just sort of add up the isolation: if both leaves together give you a total of "60" then each leaf by itself must be giving you "30", but it doesn't work like that. You can't add isolation levels.

The problem is that there are two very different principles of physics going on here: a single-leaf wall consists of just a stud frame with sheathing on only one side of it. a "room in a room" consists of two walls like that: the outer wall has OSB sheathing and siding on the outside, but nothing on the inside of the studs: just bare insulation. The inner-leaf wall is also a stud frame, and has drywall on only one side of it: the other side is bare studs with insulation.

A single leaf wall by itself is governed by a principle called "Mass Law", because the only thing that is stopping the sound from getting through is the mass of the wall. Mass law is not very happy: you'd think that if you double the mass, you'd get double the isolation, but it doesn't work like that. You'd assume that if one sheet of drywall gives you 25 dB of isolation the 2 sheets would give you 50 dB, but Mass Law says something very different. It says that if one sheet of drywall gives you 25 dB of isolation the 2 sheets would give you 30 dB, and four sheets would give you 35 dB, and 8 sheets would give you 40 dB... each time you double the mass, you get an extra 5 dB of isolation. So Mass Law is not your friend, but mass law is the way that a single leaf wall works.

But when you add another identical wall next to the first, separated by an air gap, then Mass Law no longer applies! Your wall is now controlled by resonance: it will resonate (vibrate) naturally at a certain frequency, and it is really lousy at isolating that frequency. In fact, it's pretty lousy at isolating everything up to 1.4 times that frequency, and only starts isolating at about twice that frequency. But above that, the isolation no longer increases at 5 dB each time you double mass: it increases at about 15 dB each time you double the mass! That's one hell of a lot better, so with LESS mass you can get MORE isolation! The problem is to tune the wall so that the "lousy" part (the frequency where it resonates, and up to twice that frequency) is low enough down the scale that it doesn't matter. You "tune" it by selecting the right building materials, and the right gap between the outer-leaf and the inner-leaf, among other things.

OK, so back to your situation: I can design you a building that will give you great isolation, using the "room in a room" principle. For example, I could design a method and set of materials that would get you 60 dB of isolation, if it turns out that this is what you wanted to aim for. If you build it right, then you would, indeed, get pretty silent on the outside when you are blasting your AC15's at full power, (turned up to eleven"!). That would be great! but if you only build the outer-leaf, without also building the inner leaf, then you are back to Mass Law again: If you only have a single leaf, then you will not get good isolation, even if that same single-leaf would give you fantastic isolation when you put the other leaf nest to it!

That's the problem.

You can, indeed, have a building design that will work well when completed, but the inner-wall and the outer-wall, but it will be lousy if you only have the outer-wall. And there isn't much you can do to improve that outer-wall by itself, because the principle that governs it is Mass Law. You might, with luck, get 30 dB or so from that single outer-leaf wall.

So you'd think that "OK, well then I'll build a two-leaf outer wall! Instead of leaving the bare studs, I'll put drywall on there and get a bit better isolation to start with, then I'll build the inner-leaf wall later.". That seems logical, but it won't work. The problem is that if you did that, when you added the inner-leaf wall in the future, you would have a 3-leaf system. not a 2-leaf system, and that is yet another equation, another type of system. It turns out that a 3-leaf system will always give you WORSE isolation than the equivalent two-leaf system, mainly in the low end of the spectrum: bass frequencies. There are ways of compensating for that (using a larger air gap and adding more mass), but they increase the cost and reduce the usable floor area, so it's not a good option.

So that's your dilemma. You CAN build a building that has only a single leaf wall now with the intention of adding the second leaf later to get good isolation, but until you do that, with just one leaf the isolation will be poor. Or you could start with a coupled 2-leaf outer wall and the intention of adding the inner-leaf later, but that would cost you more in the end and you'd have a smaller floor area. The third option is also not a happy one: you could start with the same coupled 2-leaf wall now, then rip off the drywall later just before you put up the inner leaf... but then you'd be wasting all that drywall!

As with most things in acoustics, the compromises often are not interesting options...

I wish I had better news for you, but basically those are your three options, and none of them is very attractive...

Then I could at least hang out in there and work at moderate volumes. You know, like I would in a bedroom or garage.

If it is just s single-leaf initially, the isolation won't even be as good as a bedroom, unfortunately. To get to the level, you need to go to "option #2" above: put drywall on the inside of the outer-leaf: But that implies that you'd either have to rip it off again when you build the inner-leaf, or you'd have to spend more money on higher mass and lose some interior floor area...

And work on isolation with friends or research more and have someone do it.

The isolation comes from the overall design. It has to be designed in from the start, even if you don't build it all now. Trying to add isolation in the future to a building that was never designed for it, is an even sadder situation. If you look around the forum, you'll see that we often have people who want to do that, and the advice is always the same: "tear down the drywall on one side of your studs, pull out the insulation, beef-up the other side of the wall from inside, between the studs, with strips of new drywall, seal it in with caulk, add cleats to hold it in place, remove all electrical installation, close up the holes, seal all air gaps and penetrations, install new insulation of the correct type and thickness, then you can build your new inner leaf". That's a lot of extra work! And a lot of extra money.

My suggestion would be to design the entire building now for the final goal, then build just the outer leaf with as much mass as you can afford, and either live with the poor isolation, or put on drywall inside but knowing that you will have to take it off again when the time comes to do the inner-leaf. If you work carefully when you take it off you might be able to salvage some of it, but there will inevitably be some loss and waste. Yes, this option will cost you more in the long run, but it will get you where you want to go in the end. Provided that it is designed correctly and completely from the start!

I will either try and isolate it or just have the contractors do the best they can.

A bit of advice here: don't rely on contractors to be able to build a studio, if they have never done it before! It's a lot different. You will have to supervise them very carefully as they work, to make sure they are taking the correct precautions. Or hire contractors that really have done several studios before, and will put you in contact with the owners or a few of those, so you can find out how that worked out...

Hopefully there is a compromise.

There are always compromises available! Hopefully I've outlined the ones that you have available at present. And as with most compromises, the issue is usually "money vs. somthing"... I think your best option is to proceed as I outlined above: get the place designed properly for the final outcome, then build just the outer leaf but with drywall on the inside (on resilient channel), knowing that you'll be losing some of that later when you take it off again, to build the inner-leaf.


- Stuart -

[johnyclash]

Thanks very much for the suggestions. I've read everything over a few times and have been digesting it.

So - I'm not going to use those contractors. :)I do have some other folks in mind. I don't expect much knowledge in the isolation and design.

If I hire someone to help design - what should i expect and what else do i need to know. How involved would someone like you be in a remote project? Would you provide the plans? I'm still unsure of what budget for the space i will need and how much an acoustician or designer would cost also. Any thoughts there would be great.

I've been trying to get my senorita to read this thread but theres a lot going on. She just mentioned just getting the prefab studioshed with "soundproof" package - but knowing what I know I feel it will be a huge compromise with a large price tag. Any thoughts on these things? 'link below'

https://www.studio-shed.com/music-studios/

[johnyclash]

This project continues to move along. We've met with a few builders. No experience with studio building but they can build whatever they need to.

I suppose at this point I'm looking for a designer. I haven't had much luck finding anyone.

Can anyone recommend someone that can help with this project remotely?

How much should I expect to pay someone to help with this?

There's still quite a few details to be worked out and would love some help.

Thanks

[Soundman2020]

Hi Johnny,

Your first point of call should be John Sayers himself! Shoot him off a PM, and ask for a quote for designing your place.

If I hire someone to help design - what should i expect and what else do i need to know

A good designer will give you the complete design for your entire studio. Since it looks like you are planning a "ground-up" build, you'd want the designer to include everything from digging the foundations and on up to the roof. He would probably leave out some things that you'll need anyway, such as gutters, down pipes, paths, siding details, vapor barriers, etc. since those will always go in, and your contractor should know to do them, but everything else should be included: all of the structure, the isolation system, the room interiors, the HVAC system, the acoustic treatment, doors, windows, dimensions, building materials, etc.

The designer will probably start out by asking you a bunch of questions about your goals, and about any restrictions (maximum height, width, area, access paths, etc.), and he'll likely make some initial recommendations to get you thinking on the right track. He'll also want to know about your gear and instruments, and hoe much isolation you need. Then he'll probably suggest a basic layout for your approval. Once you OK that, he'll get stuck in to all the details, including the slab, structure, isolation plan, layout, geometry, acoustics, HVAC, electrical, plumbing, etc. He'll probably send you updates for comments every week or so, and he'll refine the design based on your response. It can take a while, as there's a LOT that goes into designing a studio.

How involved would someone like you be in a remote project?

Practically all of the studios I design are by remote control! Even the final room tuning. The internet and modern tools, like SketchUp and REW, make that possible. Here's a specific case: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=20471 Designed, built and tuned remotely. The owner and I have never met in person, I have never been to that studio, yet it has been done to perfection remotely. In this case, the owner is also a building contractor, so there were no intermediaries, but I often work with local architects, structural engineers, and contractors. They take my design, put it on paper in the way needed by the local authorities, then they build it, and we communicate on things that might arise during the build.

Would you provide the plans?

I can, yes, but I don't normally, for a simple reason: you'd be paying double! Most municipalities etc. will only accept plans presented by locally certified architects / structural engineers / electricians / plumbers, so it is simpler to just get local people to do that. Of course, as you found out, there are very likely no studio designers local to you! Architects don't know much about studio design. So you need both. The designer does all the actual design work, then passes it over to the architect, who merely checks it for local code compliance, puts it into format that your municipality wants, and walks it through the red tape.

I'm still unsure of what budget for the space i will need and how much an acoustician or designer would cost also. Any thoughts there would be great.

As I mentioned before, ground-up building costs seem to be in the range US$ 100 to US$ 150 per square foot, for most parts of the USA right now so a 16x25 place would probably cost you around US$ 40,000 to US$ 60,000. It could be considerably less if you do some or all of the work yourself: labor is a large chunk of that. (Of course, it could be more as well, if you wanted luxury fittings and fixtures!) For the designer, the fee depends on a lot of things, but it would be less than 10% of the total. Quite a bit less in the case of a simple basic studio with typical requirements, or maybe just a bit less if you wanted something more complex. The design for a high-end mastering studio, for example, would be more expensive, and the design for a simple rehearsal space would be less. There's a broad range....

She just mentioned just getting the prefab studioshed with "soundproof" package -

Hmmm.... I wouldn't do that! "Soundproof" and "shed" are not normally words that you'd put together in the same sentence, and the type of "soundproofing" you'd get is probably not what you and I would consider "soundproof" for a studio!

In fact, beware of any place that talks about "soundproofing".... acousticians and studio designers don't normally use that word at all, since it means different things to different people, and in any event it is impossible to make something truly "soundproof". We prefer to use terms like "transmission loss" and "isolation".

I suppose at this point I'm looking for a designer. I haven't had much luck finding anyone.

Can anyone recommend someone that can help with this project remotely?

I'll contact you by PM with some suggestions, but first on the list should be John Sayers. Drop him a line.

- Stuart -

[johnyclash]

Thanks again for the time to reply.

40-60k Is a bit on the high side for us. This is for a single room building. Just s rectangle with a roof. Nothing fancy.

This does not need to be a world class room. It's just s place for me to practice my instrument, record myself and my friends and maybe pick up a little local work. For 100 to 150 sq ft I could build a luxury home.

Could you maybe break down the 40-60k so I can understand where the large chuck of cost are? And it sounds like 4-6k would be the designer fees.

[Soundman2020]

Could you maybe break down the 40-60k so I can understand where the large chuck of cost are?

You would have to ask the contractor about that. I'm just going on what my customers have told me, but I don't have the full cost breakdown. Labour is a large part of that, for sure. But so is HVAC, electrical installation, etc. Just pouring the slab is probably going to take about 10k, by the time you are done. The roof can be another big issue. But your contractor can give you a better breakdown.

And it sounds like 4-6k would be the designer fees.

If it's just a simple one-room studio with no complications and no need for extreme isolation, then it would probably be somewhat less, but you'd have to ask your chosen designer for an actual quote to be certain. I'm just going on similar reference projects where I have been involved, but other designers might have higher or lower rates, or different ways of calculating.

- Stuart -