Seeking Advice on 2ndFloor Studio Remodel in Ft. Worth Texas

drenndogg · Post by **drenndogg** » Fri Jul 08, 2016 2:18 am

First of all, let me try to satisfy the post requirements to the best of my ability.

LOCATION: Fort Worth, Texas

STRUCTURE: Existing finished room over a standard 2 car garage. The exterior walls are about 39” high and vault up to 12 feet in the center in a traditional “cathedral” type ceiling. The framing structure is all lumber which I will try to demonstrate in the photos taken during home construction. The eastern boundary of the space is an open stairwell that carries down to a patio shared by the main house and garage. There is a door at the bottom of the stairwell, but the top landing and entrance into the room is open. The southern boundary (behind a single sheet of 5/8 drywall and spray foam insulation) is plywood, radiant barrier, and composite roofing. There is a small perimeter of brick on the exterior of the shorter perimeter walls. Spray foam insulation throughout the walls (see photos). 2x8 timber forming the rafters of the roofline and plywood subfloor over open web floor trussing. There is a large in the west facing wall. Air vents empty into the eastern and western halves of the room from the 12 foot vault. The return air vent is in the stairwell at top of a landing. Neighbors to the north and south of the space; on the south side they are approximately 20-30 feet away which is my greatest concern. On the north they are approximately 60 feet away. The west facing neighbors are more than 100 feet away beyond a noisy city drain in the alley, so noise shouldn’t be a bother to them.

GOALS:
I would like to investigate the financial feasibility of partitioning the larger room into 2 smaller spaces using double wall assemblies. Ideally, a control room for mixing and critical listening and a tracking room that can serve acoustic drums, vocals, guitars, bass, etc. I understand clearly that the floor is my biggest challenge. I can attest to the fact that the “drumhead” effect into the garage is alive and well. Maximum volume inside of the space is usually around 110 db, moderate rock ’n roll/blues etc.; I would like to learn if it would be possible to reduce the ambient noise from the studio to a level that is not bothersome to my southside neighbors, say 80 db? Isolation to the east boundary (my own home) would be priority number 2 and to the north priority number 3. Priority 4 would be isolation between the tracking and the control room. The control room (as envisioned) would have a large window on the rear wall that needs to be dealt with, although maximum isolation from the control room to the outside is not as critical to me as it would be for the tracking room.

Being able to play acoustic drums at a night would be a dream, although I understand that might not be a reasonable expectation. I have created a sketchup “idea” of how I might design the room. I am limited on construction theory so there are probably many glaring errors from an engineering standpoint. I understand fully that my first stop on project feasibility would be to have a structural engineer evaluate my room for additional load necessary to achieve my goals.

BUDGET: I would probably consider going as high as 15k USD in construction costs, although the project would probably have to be completed in phases over time. 10k would be ideal.

I have tried to put together a sketchup project that incorporates my vision for the space. A dual room situation with a studio window would be my ideal, but I would be open to leaving it as one single decoupled space if the opinion were that the room is too small to partition.

To “legend” my sketchup file:

Wooden texture components represent the existing timber exoskeleton of the room
Blue components represent the proposed timber framing, “room inside a room.”
Purple components represent existing drywall, just for a frame of reference.
“Control room” final dimensions would be roughly 8.25 feet by 20 feet assuming two 5/8 sheets of drywall on every interior surface. Maximum ceiling height would be lowered by about a foot.
“Tracking room” final dimensions would be roughly 10 x 12 in the main instrument area with a narrower space between the studio doors where amps could be tucked out of the walking lane.
“Super doors” (as detailed in Rod Gervais’ book) at the top of the stairwell to gain entrance into the tracking room, as well as between the tracking/control rooms.

I made some general assumptions in my first design:

1. The western half of the room would make for a better control room due to greater symmetry.
2. The interior walls would be inset 4” from the existing structure.

PRELIMINARY QUESTIONS:

1. Assuming the second floor could support all of the additional lumber and materials, are 4” insets for the interior walls sufficient? Understanding that more air space is probably always going to be more effective, I’m looking for suggestions/recommendations to maximize financial and physical space savings in the room. In other words, if an 8” gap isn’t twice as effective as a 4”, I’d rather not give up that space inside of the rooms.

2. Given that we’re trying to achieve a MAM enclosure, how should the existing drywall be handled? I don’t quite understand how to treat the materials that are currently inside the existing walls. Is the roof, radiant barrier, and plywood considered a single “leaf”, and therefore all of the existing drywall should be demo’d down to the studs? I am curious to know if leaving the existing drywall intact and building decouple walls with two 5/8 sheets and green glue on the interior surface would create a two leaf or three leaf system. I would be willing to remove the existing drywall, but it would obviously add a considerable amount of demolition work.

3. Is there anything that’s worth doing to to the floor? I have read so many different perspectives on second floor decking but the general concensus seems to be that there isn’t a great deal that can be done for low frequency energy like kick drums and bass guitars. Would it be even worth the investment of time and money in the double wall assemblies if the floor always remains a weak link?

4. Suggestions or concerns about the current location of the HVAC venting and returns?

I have tried to be as thorough as I can before posing my first questions, but I’m sure more questions will come. I truly appreciate any and all input you may have, good or bad.

Sincerely,

Mike in Fort Worth

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drenndogg · Post by **drenndogg** » Thu Jul 14, 2016 2:21 am

I spent most of last night reading the thread http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =1&t=13629 and all it did was add to my confusion. There seems to still be some disputing over the semantics of what does or does not classify as a "leaf" in a two leaf system. I'd like to approach my thread in another way: instead of trying to come to a concensus on the definition of a leaf, I'm more interested in hearing opinions of how my project could best achieve low frequency isolation as I described above. What would you do with my space to approximate the goals I listed above? As you can see from the series of construction photos, the current walls are brick exterior, plywood sheathing, cellulose insulation and covered with 5/8 drywall. The angled ceilings are drywall, cellulose insulation, radiant barrier and composite roofing. Rather than have this discussion turn into a repeat of the referenced thread, I'd like to focus more on applications for this space. Would the existing drywall have to be demoed down to the cellulose to make this worthwhile?

Soundman2020 · Post by **Soundman2020** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 3:52 am

Hi there "drenndogg", and welcome to the forum!

Maximum volume inside of the space is usually around 110 db, moderate rock ’n roll/blues etc.; I would like to learn if it would be possible to reduce the ambient noise from the studio to a level that is not bothersome to my southside neighbors, say 80 db?

It's not clear if you want to reduce the level BY 80 dB (ie, from 110 to 30), or TO 80 dB (from 110 to 80, a reduction of 30 dB). It's fairly easy to get 30 dB of reduction (from 110 to 80), but extremely hard, and extremely expensive to get a reduction of 80 dB (from 110 to 30). The decibel scale is logarithmic, so every step of 10 dB means it is ten time harder, as you need to block ten times more energy to do that. In real terms, getting a reduction of 80 dB means that you need to block 100,000 times more energy than you do for 30 dB reduction. Very literally, one hundred thousand times more.

Realistically, about the best you can expect in a typical home situation, is to get 60-something dB of isolation. 30 is about what a typical house wall gets, 40 is relatively simple, 50 quite a bit harder, 60 very much harder, and over 60 starts getting really expensive.

And since you are doing this on an upper floor (not ground level), chances of getting over 50 are slim.

BUDGET: I would probably consider going as high as 15k USD in construction costs,

On a low budget like that, I would expect something in the 40-something range is feasible.

are 4” insets for the interior walls sufficient?

I'm not sure what you mean by '4" insets'.

3. Is there anything that’s worth doing to to the floor? I have read so many different perspectives on second floor decking but the general concensus seems to be that there isn’t a great deal that can be done for low frequency energy like kick drums and bass guitars.

Isolating the floor itself is not easy at all, especially on a very tight budget. But what you can do is to put drums and bass cabs on isolated "risers" that decouple them from the floor. That at least reduces the problem with impact noise. But you still have the problem of airborne noise getting into the floor. The only way to get high isolation from a second-story floor, is to float it, but that implies huge amounts of mass, and high expense. Take a look at IR-766, IR-802 and IR-169 to get an idea bout how well typical floor structures isolate. You'll note that getting beyond 50 is a complex task.

I spent most of last night reading the thread and all it did was add to my confusion. There seems to still be some disputing over the semantics of what does or does not classify as a "leaf" in a two leaf system.

Not really. It was more about the differences between 2-leaf and 3-leaf, and the effects of various variations on that, such as the differences between coupled and decoupled systems. The concept of a "leaf" is well defined: It's just a bunch of mass that is separated from another "bunch of mass" leaf by an air gap, or by a similar resilient "spring".

I'd like to approach my thread in another way: instead of trying to come to a concensus on the definition of a leaf, I'm more interested in hearing opinions of how my project could best achieve low frequency isolation as I described above.

If you don't want to agree on what a "leaf" is, then how will you calculate your MSM frequency?

The equations for calculating MSM resonance kind of assume that the leaves are massive, sealed, reasonably rigid at the frequency in question, and separated by an air gap. If you don't want to accept that definition, then what equation would you use? What numbers would you use? When the equation asks for M1 and M2, then what numbers would you plug in there, if you don't want to use the concept of surface density as being a defining factor for what a leaf is? And when it asks for "d", what number would use if you don't accept that it should be measured from the bounding surfaces of each leaf that face each other across the air gap?

the current walls are brick exterior, plywood sheathing, cellulose insulation and covered with 5/8 drywall.

I'm assuming that there are studs in there someplace? I imagine that you gave a stud frame holding up the drywall!

If so, is that stud frame attached to the brick wall in any way at all? If so, then you have a coupled two-leaf system. If not, then you have a decoupled 2-leaf system. Different methods apply for calculating isolation in those two cases, since they are different situations.

The angled ceilings are drywall, cellulose insulation, radiant barrier and composite roofing.

Ditto: there must be joists in there some place, to hold up the drywall: Are they mechanically separate from the roof trusses and walls? If so, then you have a decoupled 2-leaf system. If not, then it is a coupled 2-leaf system. Different methods and equations apply. The Wyle report might help you understand the difference.

Rather than have this discussion turn into a repeat of the referenced thread, I'd like to focus more on applications for this space. Would the existing drywall have to be demoed down to the cellulose to make this worthwhile?

You can't have one without the other! That's like saying "Without getting into a discussion of what a round wheel is and what a square wheel is, I want to know if the wheels on my car are any good", but then not mentioning if they are round or square....

But in simple terms: If you want high levels of isolation, then you need only two leaves (not one, not three) and your leaves need to be massive and fully decoupled and sealed. If you want low isolation, then they can be less massive, and/or coupled, and and/or unsealed, and/or something other than two leaves. If you need to take off the existing drywall to accomplish any of those conditions, then that's what you need to do. If you can leave it on and still get all of those conditions, then you are OK.

That said, there might be other, overriding situations that force you to build a 3-leaf ceiling or wall, which is different again from a two-leaf ceiling/wall. On several occasions I have had to design studios with three-leaf ceilings in order to get the attic ventilation to work properly, or for other reasons (such as it being impossible to decouple the existing leaves, or impossible to seal one of them, or structurally impossible to support the extra mass, etc.). In those cases, you just deal with the 3-leaf problem and move on: Put more mass on the middle leaf, make the air gaps bigger, seal the two important ones, and you are done. Its an unfortunate situation, since it costs more to do that, but it is possible to deal with it. as long as you understand what a leaf is, and how to decouple one, then it's not complicated.

- Stuart -

drenndogg · Post by **drenndogg** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:22 am

Stuart-

First of all, thanks for your time.

I feel that I have given a considerable amount of detail of my situation (by way of photographic record of the original build and the sketchup file that I provided) as evidence for what I seek to accomplish. I am not a professional musician nor engineer, and I would assume that the vast majority of visitors to this forum would give the same self-assessment.

I have created this thread with the hope that I could gain objectivity and constructive criticism for my project. I would like to know what others with experience in project studio construction would do with my space, and my budget. You imply we can't have a conversation about how to maximize the isolation of this room (within my budget) without complete unanimity of understanding all of the related conceptual ideas; I say we can. You are the expert, I am the novice. People come to me in my profession all the time for advice and I do not expect them to understand every nuance of my recommendation. If they knew as much about my area of expertise as I do, they would no longer by my client, but my colleague.

I am interested in creating a space for making music that is inspiring, and hopefully, quiet. That being said, I am not interested in becoming an acoustician or sound engineer. I have respect for authority in these fields (which is why I'm here), but it's simply a question of availability. I am a father of two with a career and profession of my own that dominates the vast majority of my time. What I am seeking from this forum is someone that doesn't mind digging into the details of this space with me and lending their expertise and experience to help mitigate potential mistakes.

If you want to help, I'd be happy to elaborate on anything you didn't understand and hear your recommendations. Disclaimer: I'm looking for collaborators that don't mind giving direct input here, and I feel that I've provided enough information here to see exactly what I'm working with. I don't think it's too much to ask, then, for one's opinion of whether or not the existing drywall in my room need be removed? It feels like nebulous statements such as " If you need to take off the existing drywall to accomplish any of those conditions, then that's what you need to do. If you can leave it on and still get all of those conditions, then you are OK." are half-hearted, as if you are reluctant to take responsibility if I am disappointed in the outcome. I can assure you, I assume full liability for the scope of my project, which is exactly why I am doing my due diligence here. I don't want to flush my money down the toilet. With all due respect, I want to hear what you (the collective expertise on this forum) would do in my shoes. If that's not your style, no hard feelings. I'll eagerly await more input from the next contributor.

Thanks,

Mike

drenndogg · Post by **drenndogg** » Tue Jul 19, 2016 10:30 am

Here is a crude screenshot of my sketchup

skeleton.jpg

The blue layer is what I envision as the "inner skeleton" of the room. It's actually two separate rooms inside the main structure, all decoupled from one another with the exception of the floor. Two "superdoors" as detailed in Rod Gervais' book to create an entrance into the room and a corridor between the control room. If the room would support framing of new walls, independent rafters, and new ceiling joists, would anyone recommend removing the existing drywall from the walls or leaving intact?

Soundman2020 · Post by **Soundman2020** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:04 am

I have created this thread with the hope that I could gain objectivity and constructive criticism for my project.

That's pretty much what I gave you, actually. I can't do any more than that, since it seems that you don't want to do your share.

You imply we can't have a conversation about how to maximize the isolation of this room (within my budget) without complete unanimity of understanding all of the related conceptual ideas;

That's correct, yes. At least, we can't do it under the way the forum works. If you don't want to use the same acoustic terminology as everybody else for the underlying concepts, and apparently don't even want to recognize them or talk about them, then you can't expect to have a conversation about them!

You imply we can't... I say we can. You are the expert, I am the novice.

Strange. You recognize that I'm the expert, but then you say that I am wrong in what I'm telling you? Not very logical! I'm not sure if you can see that, from your own words. I'm telling you what you need to do to get where you want to go, and you say that I'm wrong. Even though you also say that I know what I'm talking about, and you don't...

People come to me in my profession all the time for advice and I do not expect them to understand every nuance of my recommendation. If they knew as much about my area of expertise as I do, they would no longer by my client, but my colleague.

Bingo! You hit the nail on the head. What you are talking about is, indeed, a professional client-consultant relationship, where the client is paying the consultant for doing the work for him.

That's not what the forum is about. It is free information and free help for people who are prepared to do their part, and who also provide the data we ask them for without them getting on a high horse and yelling about how they can't / won't / don't feel like providing it.

The forum is for people who want to put in the effort to learn how to do the design themselves, which implies that they are prepared to do the hard slogging work of studying basic acoustics (at least sufficient to understand why we need what we are asking for), and studying basic studio design, and studying construction techniques and materials, then asking us when they run into issues that they have not been able to figure out.

But that's not you.

You seem to want a client-consultant relationship, but you want it for free! That's not going to happen. If that's what you want, where we do all the work for you, then you should be prepared to pay for it, just like all of our real customers do. If you don't want to pay for it, then you cannot expect a client-consultant relationship! Why would you even think that you could?

I am interested in creating a space for making music that is inspiring, and hopefully, quiet. That being said, I am not interested in becoming an acoustician or sound engineer. I have respect for authority in these fields (which is why I'm here), but it's simply a question of availability. I am a father of two with a career and profession of my own that dominates the vast majority of my time. What I am seeking from this forum is someone that doesn't mind digging into the details of this space with me and lending their expertise and experience to help mitigate potential mistakes

That's pretty much what I said in the paragraph above: You don't have the time or the inclination to learn what you need to learn in order to do this the way most forum members do it: as a self-help project with occasional nudges from us when they get stuck. And that's fine! There's nothing wrong with not wanting to waste time on things that you will likely never again need to know in your life. No problem at all with that. Some forum members do arrive at that same realization, and they the contact John or myself or Glenn or Andre or Rod or one of the other experienced studio designers, and they ask us to quote for doing the complete design for them (or part of it), or for consulting services.

But you don't want that either.

You want the client-consultant relationship, but you don't want to pay for it.

You can't eat your cake and have it too.

If you DO want a full-blown client-consultant service, that that's not a problem, but it won't come for free. John and I and others make our livings by designing studios. We aren't a charity!

On the other hand, if you want free advice (which is what the forum is for), then there's no problem with that at all! Except that you'll have to put in all the work that is needed to get you where you want to go, answer the questions we ask you (without yelling and screaming about how unfair it is that you would have to do that), and then we'll be happy to help you when you get stuck, just as we do for all other forum members.

Disclaimer: I'm looking for collaborators that don't mind giving direct input here, and I feel that I've provided enough information here to see exactly what I'm working with.

... and you would be wrong, because you don't want to do the leg work that would give you the understanding you need in order to do what you want. You have not provided what I asked for, and I can't help you until you do.

To put it in exaggerated terms: It's like you went to a medical forum, saying "I really need to do a triple-bypass on a patient. Please tell me what scalpel to use. But I'm not actually a doctor, and don't know much about what I'm doing, and I don't want to learn either: All I need is to know what number scalpel to use to cut the guy open".

Not sure if you get the picture...

I don't think it's too much to ask, then, for one's opinion of whether or not the existing drywall in my room need be removed?

So you don't think it is too much to ask for professional advice for free, while saying that you refuse to give the consultant the information he needs to help you, and refusing to learn enough to even understand why he needs it?

"Why won't you tell me which scalpel to us? After all, I told you this is for a triple-bypass, and I even sent you a dozen photos of the patient! Why wont you tell me what scalpel to use?"

It feels like nebulous statements such as .... are half-hearted, as if you are reluctant to take responsibility if I am disappointed in the outcome.

No. They are nebulous because you refuse to give me enough information to help you make that decision, and you also refuse to learn enough to make it for yourself. I explained to you some of the many factors involved, mentioning how you would need to go about it, but you don't want to do that yourself, and neither do you want to give me the details I'd need to figure it out: Then you demand answers from me as though I was your paid consultant? Ummmm... Sorry, but that's not going to happen.

which is exactly why I am doing my due diligence here.

You think you are, but in reality you aren't. And you don't yet know enough about acoustics to understand why you aren't. Yet you also insist that the expert is wrong about that.

I want to hear what you (the collective expertise on this forum) would do in my shoes.

What I would do is to either carry on learning enough to be able to understand the questions and answers that the experts give, or hire one of the experts to do the design for you. That's what I would do.

Sitting on the fence between those two options, trying to enjoy the best of both worlds for free, is not much of an option...

- Stuart -

drenndogg · Post by **drenndogg** » Wed Jul 20, 2016 6:57 am

Thank you, Stuart, for further substantiating the reality that you've already made clear in so many other threads on this forum-your'e not really here to help, you're here to grandstand and discourage. I won't waste my time replying directly to your combative statements because I am quite familiar with your modus operandi, and there is clearly nothing you enjoy more than arguing. I'll continue to seek guidance and advice from others who might have the decency to offer it without the supremacist rhetoric or the hilariously overused metaphors on which you so heavily lean.

Take care and best of luck with your future metaphors.

For anyone else that would like to share their practical experiences (as it pertains to my project) without asking me to complete a Doctorate of Philosophy in Acoustics, I would most graciously accept and participate in that dialogue.

Soundman2020 · Post by **Soundman2020** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 4:23 am

Thank you, Stuart, for further substantiating the reality that you've already made clear in so many other threads on this forum-your'e not really here to help, you're here to grandstand and discourage. I won't waste my time replying directly to your combative statements because I am quite familiar with your modus operandi, and there is clearly nothing you enjoy more than arguing. I'll continue to seek guidance and advice from others who might have the decency to offer it without the supremacist rhetoric or the hilariously overused metaphors on which you so heavily lean.

Take care and best of luck with your future metaphors.

For anyone else that would like to share their practical experiences (as it pertains to my project) without asking me to complete a Doctorate of Philosophy in Acoustics, I would most graciously accept and participate in that dialogue.

Thank you, "drenndogg", for further substantiating the reality that you've already made clear in your previous posts: that you are not really here to learn how to build a studio at all, and neither are you here to pay someone else to do what you don't want to do yourself. Instead, you are only here hoping to get freebies. I won't waste my time replying directly to your cheapskate silliness, since it is patently obvious to the other 20,000 members of the forum who are here to actually learn. I wont even bother responding to your childish insults, since those too are obvious and don't deserve the dignity of even being noticed. I am quite familiar with modus operandi of perpetually offended/entitled people like you, who think the world owes them everything for free, and can't understand why they should ever have to pay or (gasp!) do some brain-work to obtain valuable information, and there is clearly nothing you enjoy more than feeling hard-done-by when you can't get what you want for zero effort on your part. I'll continue to offer free guidance and advice to others who really do have the decency to genuinely appreciate it, without the hateful, spiteful, under-dog "oh poor me you wont help me for free" rhetoric, or the hilariously delusions of entitlement on which you so heavily lean.

Take care, and best of luck with your unfortunate attitude problem. There are medical professionals who can help you with that (but you'd have to pay them...)

For anyone else [that] "who" would like help and practical advice (as it pertains to their own projects) without needing to complete a Masters in Self-Entitlement Stupidity, I would most graciously offer the same help that I have always offered, as documented across thousands of posts and hundred of build threads on the forum, and will continue to offer to those who really do understand the purpose of the forum, and are willing to what is needed to get all the free help they want, without feeling the need to rant and rave in such manner as to expose their horrifying inadequacies for the world to see.

- Stuart -

(PS. They aren't "metaphors". In this case, they are "allegories". Learn the difference. Your knowledge of English seems to be somewhat lacking..)

Soundman2020 · Post by **Soundman2020** » Thu Jul 21, 2016 8:12 am

Interesting PM I just got, which pretty much proves what we all suspected:

I really must have struck a nerve there, Stu. Only someone with a true attitude problem would post that reply and then lock the thread to make sure you get the last word. You act like a child. It's amazing to me that you have any business at all, being such a complete asshole to other people. Not that it matters, but I never expected anything for free. I do, however, expect to be treated with respect and not have every thing I say be turned into an mockery or "allegory", you fucking prick.

Strange how he/she unequivocally demands "respect" yet flat refuses to respect others! (Entitlement mentality again. Respect is something you earn, not a God-given right to which you are automatically entitled: One has no right to "expect" anything in this life, unless one first does something to earn it.)

So that certainly is a curious sentence: a demand for respect while insulting others with profanity and personal attacks. Hmmmm.... And of course, that is grounds for immediate banning, since it is a violation of the forum ToS (rules). But I'll leave it there anyway and just post a warning, since it shows what a nice guy "drenndogg" really is! Hopefully his/her friends, colleagues and potential clients will find this thread at some point, and learn something they didn't know about him/her before.

- Stuart -

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